gnasher16 30,145 Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Gnasher, if its your pal that I have watched a couple of times on youtube then the bloke talks a lot of sense.....I understand him completely. Especially when he talks about revenge and things like that, it's like walking up the street with a big sack of rocks and every time you chuck a rock at someone two more go in your bag and it slowly gets heavier and heavier until you are exhausted. There comes a time when you have to put the bag down or die........that's the point you realise there is something more and that good go's to good and bad go's to bad Thats the one mate.......when you remember what a person was.....and what you see now......it seems so difficult to say " you are wrong " when he is telling you why ! " put the bag down or die "......i like that.......or what he calls " the junction you now find yourself at " 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,145 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) hmmmm ....im struggling now.......must admit i was on a bit of a " trying to be brainy " moment yesterday as id spent the previous day with a born again christian friend of mine who comes at me so heavy with all this stuff its hard not to get involved ...particularly when i cant find fault in anything he says to be fair.....i still maintain though while science ultimately has to say " we dont know " i cant differentiate that a great deal from folk like me who cant make sense of the Bible......i mean at what point does science eventually hold its hands up and say " f**k it "......personally i have a faith but like anyone else i also want to know hard facts which is hard work when your not intellectually blessed like me so you end up resorting to an aggressive common sense which always brings me back to the same point of 2 seperate roads with a f****n great big " dont know " sign at the end !.....so maybe you go with your heart Anyway i appreciate your thoughts mate Never! Progress never stops, we learn a bit more every year. Questions to which today we say "we don't know", tomorrow we say "we now know". Keep pushing the limits of human knowledge with reason and logic. Beyond todays limits there's the unreasonable and unexplainable 'God'............. untill we extend that limit a bit further and replace the unreasonable with reason.... ok maybe i phrased that wrong.......at what stage do you say " no more progress is being made "......i get back to what i said about the 2 leading astro physicists who basically said we are now back to square one.......i mean how long does it take world experts in their fields to get their finger out ?....ok i know im badly over simplifying it but you get my meaning.......are people who follow science any closer to finding out if God is real than people who follow God are ? Edited January 17, 2014 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,775 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 BH, surely as scientist your mind should be open to all possibilitys until proved or dis-proved ? It is, but how can you prove or dissprove something that is beyond reason and understanding? Or have I missunderstood what God is? If God can be explained by science then I'm not sure that he is indeed God, as something must have created him.... Now even I'm struggling..... LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,775 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 hmmmm ....im struggling now.......must admit i was on a bit of a " trying to be brainy " moment yesterday as id spent the previous day with a born again christian friend of mine who comes at me so heavy with all this stuff its hard not to get involved ...particularly when i cant find fault in anything he says to be fair.....i still maintain though while science ultimately has to say " we dont know " i cant differentiate that a great deal from folk like me who cant make sense of the Bible......i mean at what point does science eventually hold its hands up and say " f**k it "......personally i have a faith but like anyone else i also want to know hard facts which is hard work when your not intellectually blessed like me so you end up resorting to an aggressive common sense which always brings me back to the same point of 2 seperate roads with a f****n great big " dont know " sign at the end !.....so maybe you go with your heart Anyway i appreciate your thoughts mate Never! Progress never stops, we learn a bit more every year. Questions to which today we say "we don't know", tomorrow we say "we now know". Keep pushing the limits of human knowledge with reason and logic. Beyond todays limits there's the unreasonable and unexplainable 'God'............. untill we extend that limit a bit further and replace the unreasonable with reason.... ok maybe i phrased that wrong.......at what stage do you say " no more progress is being made "......i get back to what i said about the 2 leading astro physicists who basically said we are now back to square one.......i mean how long does it take world experts in their fields to get their finger out ?....ok i know im badly over simplifying it but you get my meaning.......are people who follow science any closer to finding out if God is real than people who follow God are ? But they were wrong, we aren't back to square one. We progressed our knowledge by learning that the universe had a beginning and that the steady state universe theory was wrong. That's progress! We learnt something new and increased our knowledge! If you are building a new machine, a car say, completely revolutionary bit of kit, through out the development process do you expect every part to be made to perfection first time round? Or does each part get made and refined through a process of research and development? Science is no different, we build our models from what we know and test them, refining them to perfection. They all play their part in the bigger picture of explaining everything. We get closer to having the finished product with every advancement. The scientific community aren't trying to find God, they're trying to answer every question about the universe. We haven't found a chap called God so have no basis on trying to explain him. I mean tell me something about him so I can come up with a theory and test it? Where can I observe this force and how does it behave? Like I said, science is reason and logic and understanding. From what I understand God is the exact opposite? He's unexplainable and beyond reason? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,775 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'm handling radioactive sources in the morning so I really need to get some kip! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'm handling radioactive sources in the morning so I really need to get some kip! Mega hot curry for tea was it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulus 26 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 i was reading last night that the only way this expanding and contracting theory can work is if the universe is contained in a black hole Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Seeker 3,048 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 hmmmm ....im struggling now.......must admit i was on a bit of a " trying to be brainy " moment yesterday as id spent the previous day with a born again christian friend of mine who comes at me so heavy with all this stuff its hard not to get involved ...particularly when i cant find fault in anything he says to be fair.....i still maintain though while science ultimately has to say " we dont know " i cant differentiate that a great deal from folk like me who cant make sense of the Bible......i mean at what point does science eventually hold its hands up and say " f**k it "......personally i have a faith but like anyone else i also want to know hard facts which is hard work when your not intellectually blessed like me so you end up resorting to an aggressive common sense which always brings me back to the same point of 2 seperate roads with a f****n great big " dont know " sign at the end !.....so maybe you go with your heart Anyway i appreciate your thoughts mate Never! Progress never stops, we learn a bit more every year. Questions to which today we say "we don't know", tomorrow we say "we now know". Keep pushing the limits of human knowledge with reason and logic. Beyond todays limits there's the unreasonable and unexplainable 'God'............. untill we extend that limit a bit further and replace the unreasonable with reason.... ok maybe i phrased that wrong.......at what stage do you say " no more progress is being made "......i get back to what i said about the 2 leading astro physicists who basically said we are now back to square one.......i mean how long does it take world experts in their fields to get their finger out ?....ok i know im badly over simplifying it but you get my meaning.......are people who follow science any closer to finding out if God is real than people who follow God are ? But they were wrong, we aren't back to square one. We progressed our knowledge by learning that the universe had a beginning and that the steady state universe theory was wrong. That's progress! We learnt something new and increased our knowledge! If you are building a new machine, a car say, completely revolutionary bit of kit, through out the development process do you expect every part to be made to perfection first time round? Or does each part get made and refined through a process of research and development? Science is no different, we build our models from what we know and test them, refining them to perfection. They all play their part in the bigger picture of explaining everything. We get closer to having the finished product with every advancement. The scientific community aren't trying to find God, they're trying to answer every question about the universe. We haven't found a chap called God so have no basis on trying to explain him. I mean tell me something about him so I can come up with a theory and test it? Where can I observe this force and how does it behave? Like I said, science is reason and logic and understanding. From what I understand God is the exact opposite? He's unexplainable and beyond reason? Ive enjoyed reading this debate and also your views on a scientific reasoning. If I can use your car analogy I may be able to explain the difference betwen my faith a science. Lets say a scientist finds a box of Meccano he studies it learns how to open it and then learns how when opening the packaging inside there are hundreds of items, through years of research he discoveres the nut and bolt fit together, and eventually that these nuts and bolts fit into the metal strips that eventually he can build into a shape and with much trial and error discovers that that shape can become a toy car. Now there are many Meccano pieces still left in the box theres even a motor with wires on it and he hasnt worked out what they are or what they do yet but given time im sure he will. What he cant explain and shrugs his shoulders at is who put the box there in the first place? That is the difference between my faith and science. I dont fear science, its great to have scientists explaining what we have discovered so far and I look forward to new discoveries in the future but I just wish some scienctists would not fear creation, and try to dismiss it because it dosent compute in some long equation. ATB 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,775 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Good post Seeker. I don't think I fear creation, just nothing to suggest it other than our absence of knowledge and so creation becomes something of a logical assumption to us humans.... It's here where we both show our faith, but for different reasons. My faith is that one day, as science is showing us how the Meccano set works, it will also show us how the box came to be..... Faith nonetheless! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
baw 4,360 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 hmmmm ....im struggling now.......must admit i was on a bit of a " trying to be brainy " moment yesterday as id spent the previous day with a born again christian friend of mine who comes at me so heavy with all this stuff its hard not to get involved ...particularly when i cant find fault in anything he says to be fair.....i still maintain though while science ultimately has to say " we dont know " i cant differentiate that a great deal from folk like me who cant make sense of the Bible......i mean at what point does science eventually hold its hands up and say " f**k it "......personally i have a faith but like anyone else i also want to know hard facts which is hard work when your not intellectually blessed like me so you end up resorting to an aggressive common sense which always brings me back to the same point of 2 seperate roads with a f****n great big " dont know " sign at the end !.....so maybe you go with your heart Anyway i appreciate your thoughts mate Never! Progress never stops, we learn a bit more every year. Questions to which today we say "we don't know", tomorrow we say "we now know". Keep pushing the limits of human knowledge with reason and logic. Beyond todays limits there's the unreasonable and unexplainable 'God'............. untill we extend that limit a bit further and replace the unreasonable with reason.... ok maybe i phrased that wrong.......at what stage do you say " no more progress is being made "......i get back to what i said about the 2 leading astro physicists who basically said we are now back to square one.......i mean how long does it take world experts in their fields to get their finger out ?....ok i know im badly over simplifying it but you get my meaning.......are people who follow science any closer to finding out if God is real than people who follow God are ? But they were wrong, we aren't back to square one. We progressed our knowledge by learning that the universe had a beginning and that the steady state universe theory was wrong. That's progress! We learnt something new and increased our knowledge! If you are building a new machine, a car say, completely revolutionary bit of kit, through out the development process do you expect every part to be made to perfection first time round? Or does each part get made and refined through a process of research and development? Science is no different, we build our models from what we know and test them, refining them to perfection. They all play their part in the bigger picture of explaining everything. We get closer to having the finished product with every advancement. The scientific community aren't trying to find God, they're trying to answer every question about the universe. We haven't found a chap called God so have no basis on trying to explain him. I mean tell me something about him so I can come up with a theory and test it? Where can I observe this force and how does it behave? Like I said, science is reason and logic and understanding. From what I understand God is the exact opposite? He's unexplainable and beyond reason? Ive enjoyed reading this debate and also your views on a scientific reasoning. If I can use your car analogy I may be able to explain the difference betwen my faith a science. Lets say a scientist finds a box of Meccano he studies it learns how to open it and then learns how when opening the packaging inside there are hundreds of items, through years of research he discoveres the nut and bolt fit together, and eventually that these nuts and bolts fit into the metal strips that eventually he can build into a shape and with much trial and error discovers that that shape can become a toy car. Now there are many Meccano pieces still left in the box theres even a motor with wires on it and he hasnt worked out what they are or what they do yet but given time im sure he will. What he cant explain and shrugs his shoulders at is who put the box there in the first place? That is the difference between my faith and science. I dont fear science, its great to have scientists explaining what we have discovered so far and I look forward to new discoveries in the future but I just wish some scienctists would not fear creation, and try to dismiss it because it dosent compute in some long equation. ATB Was it Santa Claus? : 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Seeker 3,048 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 hmmmm ....im struggling now.......must admit i was on a bit of a " trying to be brainy " moment yesterday as id spent the previous day with a born again christian friend of mine who comes at me so heavy with all this stuff its hard not to get involved ...particularly when i cant find fault in anything he says to be fair.....i still maintain though while science ultimately has to say " we dont know " i cant differentiate that a great deal from folk like me who cant make sense of the Bible......i mean at what point does science eventually hold its hands up and say " f**k it "......personally i have a faith but like anyone else i also want to know hard facts which is hard work when your not intellectually blessed like me so you end up resorting to an aggressive common sense which always brings me back to the same point of 2 seperate roads with a f****n great big " dont know " sign at the end !.....so maybe you go with your heart Anyway i appreciate your thoughts mate Never! Progress never stops, we learn a bit more every year. Questions to which today we say "we don't know", tomorrow we say "we now know". Keep pushing the limits of human knowledge with reason and logic. Beyond todays limits there's the unreasonable and unexplainable 'God'............. untill we extend that limit a bit further and replace the unreasonable with reason.... ok maybe i phrased that wrong.......at what stage do you say " no more progress is being made "......i get back to what i said about the 2 leading astro physicists who basically said we are now back to square one.......i mean how long does it take world experts in their fields to get their finger out ?....ok i know im badly over simplifying it but you get my meaning.......are people who follow science any closer to finding out if God is real than people who follow God are ? But they were wrong, we aren't back to square one. We progressed our knowledge by learning that the universe had a beginning and that the steady state universe theory was wrong. That's progress! We learnt something new and increased our knowledge! If you are building a new machine, a car say, completely revolutionary bit of kit, through out the development process do you expect every part to be made to perfection first time round? Or does each part get made and refined through a process of research and development? Science is no different, we build our models from what we know and test them, refining them to perfection. They all play their part in the bigger picture of explaining everything. We get closer to having the finished product with every advancement. The scientific community aren't trying to find God, they're trying to answer every question about the universe. We haven't found a chap called God so have no basis on trying to explain him. I mean tell me something about him so I can come up with a theory and test it? Where can I observe this force and how does it behave? Like I said, science is reason and logic and understanding. From what I understand God is the exact opposite? He's unexplainable and beyond reason? Ive enjoyed reading this debate and also your views on a scientific reasoning. If I can use your car analogy I may be able to explain the difference betwen my faith a science. Lets say a scientist finds a box of Meccano he studies it learns how to open it and then learns how when opening the packaging inside there are hundreds of items, through years of research he discoveres the nut and bolt fit together, and eventually that these nuts and bolts fit into the metal strips that eventually he can build into a shape and with much trial and error discovers that that shape can become a toy car. Now there are many Meccano pieces still left in the box theres even a motor with wires on it and he hasnt worked out what they are or what they do yet but given time im sure he will. What he cant explain and shrugs his shoulders at is who put the box there in the first place? That is the difference between my faith and science. I dont fear science, its great to have scientists explaining what we have discovered so far and I look forward to new discoveries in the future but I just wish some scienctists would not fear creation, and try to dismiss it because it dosent compute in some long equation. ATB Was it Santa Claus? : Baw you say you were brought up as a Catholic? I dont get that, loads of people I know that are completely anti religion were brought up a stout Catholics, one of my closet friends was borught up by nuns and she detests religion of any sort. I dont know what they did to try and instill faith but it seems to have back fired on many occasion. Me. Noone in my family is in the least bit religious I wasnt brought up to go to church or sunday school or anything like that, I just wanted answers to the question of why are we here and spent a very long time years reading and speaking to different people until I worked out what in my opinion was true. At first I never said anything because of how nerdy it was for example in the boozer the simplist mention of being a christian was met by sniggers and stares like Id just shit on the carpet, but with age I learnt if somone wants to ask me my opinion and then riducule me then I say to feck em, they are the idiots cause 9 time out of 10 they havent even got the brains to ask the question in the first place What I will NEVER do is bring the topic up first OR try to convince somone else that Im right, I only give my opinion of what I think and what I think is right, I will stand my gorund and argue my case but people have to make up their own minds. I found mine hope you find yours mate. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
baw 4,360 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 This is my experience mate and why I detest it. Both my parents were catholic but not religious. They sent me to a catholic school, I went to mass etc, was only 5 so you did. My parents forced me to go to make my life easier plus you had to, it's part of the rules etc. but me going to mass didn't matter, from day 1 I was made to feel different by the priests cos my parents didn't attend. Nothing in this green earth would get my dad in a chapel lol so I had to suffer at the hands of these so called sons of god. Nothing sexual or any of that pish incase any c**ts got their dick in there hand reading this it started as I say pretty much early on, questions as to why my parents weren't at mass, they ask in front of the class to embarrass you and so EVERYONE knows its ok to ridicule you. Didn't bother me, I was a tough c**t even back then the more they did it the more I'd rebel. Got to the point at the age of 6, my answer was a simple, dunno, ask them, so that bullying stopped but the seed was sewn, I'd seen these c**ts for what they were. I'm not talking one priest, I could understand that, I'm talking 3 or 4. When I was about 9, I stopped going to mass, I just used to pretend to go, walk the streets lol. But the bullying started again. I've had them hit me, throw stuff at me, they're devil b*****ds mate, pure f***ing evil. Did it make me go to mass? Did it f**k, I just dug my heels in deeper. I was good at football, you got to play for the team if you were good enough the last 2 years of school. I missed a lot of games cos you had to learn prayers etc to get in the team. I couldn't to this day tell you a how's your father from a Hail Mary full of pish and that was me getting it drummed into my head constant. So to answer your question, they bully you into learning, it's ok if you conform like a good boy but if you don't, they try to make your life a misery. So I'm sure you can see why me and others like me hate them and what they stand for with a passion 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
potpoacher 27 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 it seems to me that your hate of religion stems from bad experience of the church you went to. it seems that it is mostly the catholic church went to as well? I am only a kid but I know when something is real and when something is not and I know that God is real and that we should not question his existence. those who have made remarks against him will find out what it is really about one day. it will be too late then. from now I am staying away from this conversation, no matter anybody says. My love of God is too great to part with. so say what you like but it wont make a difference. just don't forget that God remembers everything that is said and done against him. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,127 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Baw, I don't mean to ridicule you but I can only write how I speak and this is how I would sum up your experience.......a few small minded nasty people were nasty to you years ago and you have not been able to dry your eyes about it ever since That's it in a nutshell from what you have written. It's doesn't seem like you have been able to think through the fact that these were just nasty people, there's nasty people all over the show but that doesn't make religion or a believe in itself a silly thing. What you need to see is that, by just taking every opportunity to slag religion just because some folk were nasty once, those people are still kicking that young lad you used to be. Hate and anger = darkness, leave it behind mate, you will feel better.......now that's real religion working in a practical way. Jmho Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 This is my experience mate and why I detest it. Both my parents were catholic but not religious. They sent me to a catholic school, I went to mass etc, was only 5 so you did. My parents forced me to go to make my life easier plus you had to, it's part of the rules etc. but me going to mass didn't matter, from day 1 I was made to feel different by the priests cos my parents didn't attend. Nothing in this green earth would get my dad in a chapel lol so I had to suffer at the hands of these so called sons of god. Nothing sexual or any of that pish incase any c**ts got their dick in there hand reading this it started as I say pretty much early on, questions as to why my parents weren't at mass, they ask in front of the class to embarrass you and so EVERYONE knows its ok to ridicule you. Didn't bother me, I was a tough c**t even back then the more they did it the more I'd rebel. Got to the point at the age of 6, my answer was a simple, dunno, ask them, so that bullying stopped but the seed was sewn, I'd seen these c**ts for what they were. I'm not talking one priest, I could understand that, I'm talking 3 or 4. When I was about 9, I stopped going to mass, I just used to pretend to go, walk the streets lol. But the bullying started again. I've had them hit me, throw stuff at me, they're devil b*****ds mate, pure f*****g evil. Did it make me go to mass? Did it f**k, I just dug my heels in deeper. I was good at football, you got to play for the team if you were good enough the last 2 years of school. I missed a lot of games cos you had to learn prayers etc to get in the team. I couldn't to this day tell you a how's your father from a Hail Mary full of pish and that was me getting it drummed into my head constant. So to answer your question, they bully you into learning, it's ok if you conform like a good boy but if you don't, they try to make your life a misery. So I'm sure you can see why me and others like me hate them and what they stand for with a passion You weren't that rebellious mate, you still grew up supporting the team in green and white! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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