17 Winchester Super Magnum

[charlie caller 3,654]

Look lets simplify this, if you have ground passed for a deer calibre rifle, (you can find out what if you ring and ask) you can apply for anything up to and including the calibre it is passed up to, so lets say it is passed for .270 for instance, you can apply for anything up to and including a .270, if your letters of permission state a calibre on them, and you need to show them on your variation for a new calibre(though why you would is beyond me, when they will know what the ground is passed up to) get it amended, in light of your informing us of the ground being centerfire cleared, dont pi-s about with silly trendy rimfire rubbish, get a .22 hornet or a .222 and reload for it, cheap to run, accurate, deadly, and time proven, happy days.

[Alsone 789]

 

perhaps being pedantic but neither the tenant,gamekeeper nor farm manager are the land owner and are unlikely to hold the shooting rights IF i needed permission slips as above I would want the landowners (or holder of the shooting rights) permission in writing I would be very careful about accepting permission from someone who only acts as an agent and in all reality probably cannot lawfully grant permission.

 

 

That may actually be a very good point Dan.

 

Like I said it was an amalgam of forms and I haven't seen it written anyway in the Acts as to who has the right to grant permission. So its certainly a point that wants checking before using the wording beyond "landowner".

[Alsone 789]

 

 

You are getting to complicated and thinking too much about the permission. Keep it simple, why is there any mention of termination at all?

 

As for distance, nobody in their right mind will buy a 17WSM for shooting squirrels 264 yards away, and I did a rabbit 258 with my HMR. These are one off shots in special circumstances, I have used my HMR at 600 yards at Bisley, so why bother with a WSM at all on that basis!I think the point with termination is provide certainty. Other wise if you got stopped by the police, the landowner could say I saw you last night and told you I'd terminated the permission. I think the point in specifying it to be in writing and by registered post is to prevent exactly that type of situation occuring as the terminations isn't valid unless its in writing and has been sent by registered post. My point in adding 7 days notice is to strenghten that further and reduce any possibility of it being withdrawn without you having read the delivered notice. Like I said, you are thinking too much and over complicating things!

It's better to be water tight than have things go wrong later.

As for shooting vermin I said squirrel as in your example at 264 yards, why ever not? Bullet drops only 4 inches and energy is still almost 200ft pounds, With what ammo and at what zero point thats 50ft lbs more than .22 LR HV at the muzzle. Shooting Squirrels at 264 yards is not a daily usage for any rimfire, these are one off shots, it isn't a pissing contest, it's about getting the job done, if that is what you want out of a rifle you buy something better suited, and by way of silliness, like I said ...."I have used my HMR at 600 yards at Bisley, so why bother with a WSM at all on that basis? :hmm:

 

But why buy more rifle than you need? If there's a rimfire capable of despatching squirrels or other vermin / game at out to 300 yards, then why go to the expense of a CF to do the same job? If you already have a CF or want to shoot fox at that range then fair enough, but in the absence of that, WSM seems to fill the hole between LR and CF quite nicely, especially as its unlikely you'll be regularly taking shots at that range anyway. What it gives is flexibility. A rifle that will happily shoot at yards all day for 30p a shot but take out something at up to 300yds if needed.

 

Edited December 16, 2013 by Alsone

[danw 1,748]

 

 

perhaps being pedantic but neither the tenant,gamekeeper nor farm manager are the land owner and are unlikely to hold the shooting rights IF i needed permission slips as above I would want the landowners (or holder of the shooting rights) permission in writing I would be very careful about accepting permission from someone who only acts as an agent and in all reality probably cannot lawfully grant permission.

 

 

That may actually be a very good point Dan.

 

Like I said it was an amalgam of forms and I haven't seen it written anyway in the Acts as to who has the right to grant permission. So its certainly a point that wants checking before using the wording beyond "landowner".

 

yeah its an interesting point over the years I've been asked more times than I care to remember if I could give some one written authority to shoot on the estates I've keepered I always refuse since it is neither my land nor do I hold the rights to the shooting and as such I don't believe it is my place to grant such permission that said I do allow people to shoot on the estate but it is on the strict understanding that it is as my guest and that no permanent or written arrangement exists.

[Deker 3,478]

 

 

 

You are getting to complicated and thinking too much about the permission. Keep it simple, why is there any mention of termination at all?

 

As for distance, nobody in their right mind will buy a 17WSM for shooting squirrels 264 yards away, and I did a rabbit 258 with my HMR. These are one off shots in special circumstances, I have used my HMR at 600 yards at Bisley, so why bother with a WSM at all on that basis!I think the point with termination is provide certainty. Other wise if you got stopped by the police, the landowner could say I saw you last night and told you I'd terminated the permission. I think the point in specifying it to be in writing and by registered post is to prevent exactly that type of situation occuring as the terminations isn't valid unless its in writing and has been sent by registered post. My point in adding 7 days notice is to strenghten that further and reduce any possibility of it being withdrawn without you having read the delivered notice. Like I said, you are thinking too much and over complicating things!

It's better to be water tight than have things go wrong later.

 

As for shooting vermin I said squirrel as in your example at 264 yards, why ever not? Bullet drops only 4 inches and energy is still almost 200ft pounds, With what ammo and at what zero point thats 50ft lbs more than .22 LR HV at the muzzle. Shooting Squirrels at 264 yards is not a daily usage for any rimfire, these are one off shots, it isn't a pissing contest, it's about getting the job done, if that is what you want out of a rifle you buy something better suited, and by way of silliness, like I said ...."I have used my HMR at 600 yards at Bisley, so why bother with a WSM at all on that basis? :hmm:

But why buy more rifle than you need? If there's a rimfire capable of despatching squirrels or other vermin / game at out to 300 yards, then why go to the expense of a CF to do the same job? If you already have a CF or want to shoot fox at that range then fair enough, but in the absence of that, WSM seems to fill the hole between LR and CF quite nicely, especially as its unlikely you'll be regularly taking shots at that range anyway. What it gives is flexibility. A rifle that will happily shoot at yards all day for 30p a shot but take out something at up to 300yds if needed.

 

 

That permission slip is not watertight in any way, it would need to be pages long, drawn up by an expert and probably then something would still be forgotten, like I said you are thinking to much and complicating it, if,if if if if if if ?

 

As regards distance you simply don't seem to grasp the usage of rifles, my HMR is capable of despatching squirrels and other vermin way past 300 yards, but it isn't a suitable calibre for that.....and just what hole is there anyway that needs filling and what quarry is in that hole?

[Alsone 789]

 

That permission slip is not watertight in any way, it would need to be pages long, drawn up by an expert and probably then something would still be forgotten, like I said you are thinking to much and complicating it, if,if if if if if if ?

 

 

- Irrespective, the more things it covers the better it is as the less chance of an event not covered happening.

 

(Finally got the quote boxes to separate!)

 

 

 

As regards distance you simply don't seem to grasp the usage of rifles, my HMR is capable of despatching squirrels and other vermin way past 300 yards, but it isn't a suitable calibre for that.....and just what hole is there anyway that needs filling and what quarry is in that hole?

 

 

Exactly, .17 HMR typically zereo'd at 100 yards which gives 35 inches drop @ 300 yards!

 

I doubt many people would want to take a shot with 35 inches of compensation against live quarry.

 

WSM typically has 1/2 the drop and 1/2 the windage of HMR and can be easily zero'd at out to 150 or even 200 yards and be usable at short range (I believe the typical zero is 150 yards), which means that drops of just 4 inches at 250yds are obtainable. Plus retained energy at over 250yds is very similar to .17 hornet.

 

Here's a comparison chart of performance at 200 yards with a 100 yard zero:

 

 

Like I said, don't rubbish the calibre until you've tried it. It may have a place between .22LR and CF instead of HMR.

[Deker 3,478]

The more things your permission letter covers is NOT good, it simply complicates things, restricts you and gives you a whole load of parameters to comply with, on top of which, few, if any landowners are interested in reading/signing a contract several pages long binding them and you to a whole load of rules.

http://basc.org.uk/?s=permission+letter&x=0&y=0
BASC letter, how complicated is that, fancy telling the BASC they have not covered enough?

I am not rubbishing any calibre, you simply don't get it do you, if you like charts so much look up a 17 rem or Fireball, .204, or a 222/223/22-250/ even a .243 and tell me which is the best at 300 yards. The 17WSM is not your everyday 264 (or 300) yard squirrel/vermin tool.
You need to stop looking at charts and experience the real world.

Like I said................
As regards distance you simply don't seem to grasp the usage of rifles, my HMR is capable of despatching squirrels and other vermin way past 300 yards, but it isn't a suitable calibre for that.....and just what hole is there anyway that needs filling and what quarry is in that hole?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Deker

[charlie caller 3,654]

This is the problem, too much looking at charts, not enough experience, charts will only tell you a bit of the story,yes they can be useful, but nothing beats knowledge gained from being out in the field with a variety of calibres, on a variety of quarry, when you do that, and only then you will realise most charts are best used for wiping your posterior on.

[irishnut 297]

The way I see it, if you want a higher powered .17 calibre round, go for a hornet and reload it to the spec that suits your needs

[charlie caller 3,654]

Or the daddy of .17s the awesome .17rem

[Alsone 789]

The more things your permission letter covers is NOT good, it simply complicates things, restricts you and gives you a whole load of parameters to comply with, on top of which, few, if any landowners are interested in reading/signing a contract several pages long binding them and you to a whole load of rules.

 

http://basc.org.uk/?s=permission+letter&x=0&y=0

BASC letter, how complicated is that, fancy telling the BASC they have not covered enough?

 

Very good simple form. I may adopt it and modify.

 

However,in my opinion, I believe there's a danger in allowing immediate termination without stating the method of communication or having a mandatory notice period for the reasons I've previously mentioned.

 

I also believe the form shouldn't contain a fixed termination date as otherwise your permission will expire and the landowner might not be bothered to re-grant it. Better to make it perpetual and make them terminate it, than have it expire and constantly have to trouble them for renewals, especially where your certificate may depend on holding the permission also.

 

..and yep I would be happy to tell the BASC my opinion - I'm more qualified in this than you are aware .

 

I am not rubbishing any calibre, you simply don't get it do you, if you like charts so much look up a 17 rem or Fireball, .204, or a 222/223/22-250/ even a .243 and tell me which is the best at 300 yards. The 17WSM is not your everyday 264 (or 300) yard squirrel/vermin tool.

You need to stop looking at charts and experience the real world.

 

Like I said................

As regards distance you simply don't seem to grasp the usage of rifles, my HMR is capable of despatching squirrels and other vermin way past 300 yards, but it isn't a suitable calibre for that.....and just what hole is there anyway that needs filling and what quarry is in that hole?

 

Yep I do get it entirely. But you keep mentioning CF calibres. The whole point of wsm is that it's rimfire. It gives a tool that can used against small game from 0-250yds without the need to resort to a CF rifle application or CF ammunition costs and wsm IS suitable for that.

 

There are plenty of people in the UK who won't get a CF on a 1st grant but may get wsm rimfire and that brings whole new possibilities as to the range at which small game and foxes can humanely be shot by those people.

[hutchey 147]

ok, i dont get it. If its as near as good as a CF and the "charts" show this then why wouldnt they be granted a CF. here no difference in what the guns will do.

All have potential to kill at more than 300 yards

is this purely about cost?

Isnt it better to learn to get in close on vermin, deers, etc anyway?

Failing that, there's always the armed forces.......................................They have sniper selection available

[danw 1,748]

ok, i dont get it. If its as near as good as a CF and the "charts" show this then why wouldnt they be granted a CF. here no difference in what the guns will do.

All have potential to kill at more than 300 yards

is this purely about cost?

Isnt it better to learn to get in close on vermin, deers, etc anyway?

Failing that, there's always the armed forces.......................................They have sniper selection available

LOL every reply to that I tried didn't sound right mate so I,ll just go with

Born Hunter had a very similar experience off that valley

[charlie caller 3,654]

I have said this before, if you massage the figures slightly and use the most pedestrian load data for the .22 hornet as a comparison, yes the .17 nail gun can be made to appear almost as good, the reality is that the .22 hornet can be loaded up to pretty damn close to .222 figures, pumping out over twice the power, it can be loaded with a variety of bullets and tailored to different jobs, I think you will find Alsone that getting granted a .17wsm will be nigh on as hard/easy as getting a .22 hornet for instance, it will I suggest, be up a rung so to speak, from the .17hmr, I think anyone who thinks (in our area at least) they are going to be granted one of these as a starter, like they will a .22 rf is in for a slightly rough ride, I am not saying they wont get one but it will not be plain sailing.

[Born Hunter 17,775]

 

ok, i dont get it. If its as near as good as a CF and the "charts" show this then why wouldnt they be granted a CF. here no difference in what the guns will do.

All have potential to kill at more than 300 yards

is this purely about cost?

Isnt it better to learn to get in close on vermin, deers, etc anyway?

Failing that, there's always the armed forces.......................................They have sniper selection available

LOL every reply to that I tried didn't sound right mate so I,ll just go with

Born Hunter had a very similar experience off that valley

 

 

And im STILL smiling about it Dan! Everybody that will give me an "Alright Ben" has had their ear burnt off!

 

Thanks again mate.

 

Just got my FAC posted for my rimmys mate.