.223 Or .243 For Lamping Foxes

[Deker 3,478]

You see this is where it gets silly.

 

2 friends of mine had never shot in their life and fancy starting shooting.

 

They applied for rifle range and shooting deer in Scotland.

 

He got a .243 on Open Ticket - 1st grant and she got a .22-250 on Open Ticket 1st Grant, no conditions.

 

Neither of them had ever picked up a firearm before in their lives!

 

I'd bet money that I could apply to the same Force for a .243 for use locally on 1st grant and despite having had a SGC for 15 years would not get it.

What does rifle range mean?

[Yokel Matt 918]

Oh come on Deker, have a guess, or is this one of your leading questions with no correct answer - Target Shooting maybe.....?

 

Alsone - this is my concern. Some areas make you go through hoops, sure you winge about it at the time but when you get the experience you understand why. It's like saying ammo consumption = experience. Bollocks.

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

Ammo consumption = experience, may be bollocks to some extent, but you wont gain experience if you don't use any ammo.......Its no good putting a few rounds through a gun and saying you are very experienced.....

 

But I understand what you're trying to say, a new certificate holder blasting a few thousand rounds off at a target does not count as experience....

 

So there is some truth to what your saying but also some bollocks.

 

I do understand your concern when it comes to firearms licensing, a .243 on an open ticket, with no conditions, on a first grant, with no shooting experience is ridiculous...

[Alsone 789]

Yeah Target Shooting Deker.

 

 

I do understand your concern when it comes to firearms licensing, a .243 on an open ticket, with no conditions, on a first grant, with no shooting experience is ridiculous...

 

Yeah they got it open because of Deer Stalking in Scotland. I would have thought though that the logical thing the police would have done there though is mentor condition in the shape of being accompanied and supervised by a guide in Scotland and being accompanied by an experienced shooter in England (although they only do Target in England), but it appears not. They are always guided in Scotland which is one bonus but its still an interesting grant.

 

The thing I find slightly irritating is that if I applied to to shoot a .243 on 1st grant in the local area, they'd probably restrict me despite my experience.

 

What I'd also add to the experience debate above is yep shooting ammo doesn't prove anything. Every one of those shots could have been unsafe but you got away with it. Safety comes from learning from someone with the correct knowledge to educate you on the risks such as potential bullet travel distances, backstops, hidden dangers eg shooting using trees as backstops. shallow angles of incidence on wet grass etc.

 

To that end, I think there's a lot to be said for walking around with someone experienced. I personally learnt 90% of what I know off my father who had a licence in the old days (read 1940's), but I also learnt a lot from forums and walking around with my friends who have licences.

 

Personally, I'd much rather the police assess someone for an open certificate by means of a walk round with the shooter pointing out their land and walking through the potential dangers, than some arbitrary you've shot X hundred rounds or had a cert for X years as a means of deciding the point at which a person could be open because some people could be open from the off whereas others perhaps should never be open. It's all about knowledge and judgement not years in possession or number of rounds shot.

 

I'll never forget the day on a pheasant shoot when I nearly got my head blown off my a total idiot who'd had a cert for years and clearly wasn't aware of the dangers. There was a large fallen tree branch with a fork with part of the fork going upwards into the air. With a loaded shotgun and breach closed he decided to walk up the fork to gain more height to shoot from (alarm bells ringing already here - guy climbing on object with loaded gun? - they should be). Anyway, he lost his footing and fell and pointed the gun straight at me by doing so. Luckily at the last moment he managed to raise the barrels into the air before impacting the log at which point the gun went off. I was very lucky that day. However, he was an idiot, and one with years of experience. The dangers of climbing an unstable slope that's slippery with a closed loaded gun should be obvious to all. Unfortunately that's the type of person for whom experience is a false indicator of competence and why no of rounds shot = nothing when it comes to fitness. That was my 1st time on a pheasant shoot and I could see the danger coming from a mile off even before he fell.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Alsone

[Deker 3,478]

You see this is where it gets silly.

 

2 friends of mine had never shot in their life and fancy starting shooting.

 

They applied for rifle range and shooting deer in Scotland.

 

He got a .243 on Open Ticket - 1st grant and she got a .22-250 on Open Ticket 1st Grant, no conditions.

 

Neither of them had ever picked up a firearm before in their lives!

I'd bet money that I could apply to the same Force for a .243 for use locally on 1st grant and despite having had a SGC for 15 years would not get it.

 

 

Yeah Target Shooting Deker.

 

Could you help my simple brain make any sense of that.

 

How did they get a Target condition if they have never picked up a firearm in their life, they would need to be a member of an approved club and have served a probation period?

 

And what sort of deer were they after in Scotland, seeing as he could deal with them all, if the rifle could handle 100g, and she could only deal with the small ones?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Deker

[Alsone 789]

Re: Target shooting, yep they joined a club.

 

Deer species - I don't know. I can only presume the estate they go to has Roe on it or a mixture and he's targeting anything and her Roe.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not in anyway saying they aren't responsible, far from it, they're both very responsible. However, I was just surprised to hear they'd got Open Tickets from the off on CF. I know if you're shooting somewhere like Scotland then its difficult to tie you to land because potentially many days are bought in (although they seem to use the same estate). However, I was surprised that there weren't more restrictions (at least none that I've been told about).

Edited December 13, 2013 by Alsone

[charlie caller 3,654]

Does the open ticket only apply to stalking in scotland? Or do they have an open ticket in England as well? because a great majority of Scottish land is not passed by the police there, so in order to shoot there, you would have to have it open, but I will bet you a pint or two that they are not allowed to fire a single bullet, on English soil, unless its passed.

[Alsone 789]

In all honesty I don't know Charlie.

[charlie caller 3,654]

In all honesty I don't know Charlie.

Well next time you see them ask to have a look at the certificates, there is more chance of platting fog than getting a .243, to shoot in England on open ticket with the particular force in question, without any rifle experience, or any other force I would hope, you see its ok saying they got open ticket to shoot in Scotland, but if you have not seen the conditions attached to this "open" condition then perhaps you should have a look, it could, and probably does say for use only when accompanied by Jock the estate stalker, when there is an east wind and he is wearing blue underpants, do a bit of detective work mate and I think you will find it is a little more restrictive than you first thought.

[charlie caller 3,654]

In all honesty I don't know Charlie.

Well next time you see them ask to have a look at the certificates, there is more chance of platting fog than getting a .243, to shoot in England on open ticket with the particular force in question, without any rifle experience, or any other force I would hope, you see its ok saying they got open ticket to shoot in Scotland, but if you have not seen the conditions attached to this "open" condition then perhaps you should have a look, it could, and probably does say for use only when accompanied by Jock the estate stalker, when there is an east wind and he is wearing blue underpants, do a bit of detective work mate and I think you will find it is a little more restrictive than you first thought.

[activeviii 8]

You don't need a .243, why spend more on ammo when the .223 will do the job just as well for the quarry you intend to shoot.

Run it on cheap ppu ammo and all will be good.

223 is quite and cheap to run. Feo are normally happy to give out.

243 is loud, more expensive to run and burns out barrels quicker.

As the cf will be the first you will end up putting a lot of rounds down it. Buying second hand is not advised if you don't know what your looking for. Yes there are lots for sale and cheap but a lot burnt out. Not cheap as £500+ for a rebarrel.

 

223 will allow you to take smaller deer species if you have the relevant permission. If over the wall then roe deer as well but not in England.

 

I have a number of rifles to use but the 222 is the one that comes out for fox.

 

Just to upset the apple cart more. Have you thought about the 22 hornet.

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

Thanks for your input activeiii, I have thought about a hornet but due to my lack of experience I have no real world knowledge of the calibre....Only ballistic charts...

 

So compared to a .223 according to Winchester ballistic calculator the hornet is badly affected by wind, with both rifles zeroed at 100yds and a 10mph cross wind the .223 drifts 1 inch and the hornet 2.8 inches and its nearly 7 inches at 150 yards....This was with the hornet using 46gr hp and the .223 a 50gr ballistic silvertip....

 

I would feel more confident taking a shot and making a clean kill using more of a point and shoot gun out to 150yds......

 

If anyone has anything to add about the hornet I'm all ears....

[activeviii 8]

I think, once you start shooting foxes, you will take just as much pleasure getting the fox as close as you can. I call them within 25 Metres at time. Its my livk I guess.

Just keep your shooting to 100 meters. My take on it is if your shooting foxes at your maximum range and you wing one, it will happen one day, you are then having to find a way to get back on that fox that is running away. To me, its much better to shoot them close and then if you do cock one up you still have the to get another bullet up the spout and put things right.

 

I have shot hundreds with the 222, as has my rifle partner with his 22hh.

[ianm 2,594]

I have a .223 and a .243 but to be honest i would much rather shoot fox with my .204. It is flat shooting to 300yds, negligable recoil and you never lose the sight picture. So basicly put the dot on the target squeeze the trigger and see it go down a better fox round than either of the other two calibres. The hornet is also a good little round if you use 35 grn bullets it should do you out to 200 yds with a little hold over.

[charlie caller 3,654]

I have a .223 and a .243 but to be honest i would much rather shoot fox with my .204. It is flat shooting to 300yds, negligable recoil and you never lose the sight picture. So basicly put the dot on the target squeeze the trigger and see it go down a better fox round than either of the other two calibres. The hornet is also a good little round if you use 35 grn bullets it should do you out to 200 yds with a little hold over.

Well I would love to know what makes you think your .204 is a better fox round than .243, yes it is flat shooting, but so is my 80gn blitz load doing 3400fps the drop at 300 yards is tiny, not even worth bothering about, it is far less bothered by wind, and at 300 yards retains far more energy than a .204 does at 100 yards, and yes a .22 hornet is a fantastic little fox round, load for it and you have a super accurate fox killer out to 200 yards.