Managing High Drive Dogs

[skycat 6,173]

Rather than go a bit off topic from the other thread, I've copied Casso's post to introduce a little bit I've just put together to illustrate a high drive dog and how I manage him, without squashing his drive, or resorting to brute force, something which wouldn't work anyway.

 

 

Working dogs have always been bred for heart , that what makes them so loyal and inspiring to man kind,

It's only modern society that has a problem with this , in other working dog related activities no one is not breeding with heart in mind , the problem lies with the uneducated owner not the dog , been breeding for drive all my life with varies type of dog and have never had a problem that could be solved with a less driven dog for working purpose ,

If you understand it you can control it , drive is easily channeled but it all comes down to understanding it not rejecting it out of hand,

That's it in a nutshell: working with the drive rather than trying to damp it down by brute force. Here's a totally different example of what drive makes a dog do:

Picture this: Chance, highly-driven Saluki type, more like a raging bull in his head His drive is so big that he's a sod when getting worked up around other dogs before we go out. Note, BEFORE, not during hunting. He directs all that crazy energy and drive into jumping on the other dogs, grabbing their heads in his jaws, not hard, but annoying. In the van, he's the same until we start moving towards our destination. Took some doing to calm him down during travelling, but I got there in the end. I used a very simple method indeed. The dog is ball crazy: he has learned it is the one thing he is allowed to grab and play with and retrieve. So instead of muzzling him in the van, or tying him up tight like a horse to a hitching post, I give him a tennis ball to mouth while I get the other dogs into the van.

He's happy with the ball in his mouth. He closes his jaws on it, squashing it quite a lot, but never tries to rip it to pieces. His drive is being directed towards the ball, and the need to grab, bite and exert pressure on something with his jaws keeps him occupied and directed away from the other dogs. It works a treat.

Similarly, because I have trained him to do this, made him ball obsessed, he is easy to control when we're out. I use a certain sharp but happy tone of voice to call his name when I want him to come to me. It's the same tone I use when I play tug games and ball games with him at home. Now, this wouldn't work if he's in pursuit of something alive (he is pure sighthound with a fair dose of Saluki after all!), but in all other situations it gives me a really good handle on the dog, and he's learned that there is a good deal of satisfaction to be had up close with me.

Titbits wouldn't work with a dog like this, nor does punishment. High drive dogs are seldom at all pain sensitive: which is one of the reasons they'll keep running long after their body has screamed that it's had enough. Food is a good lure if the prey drive hasn't kicked in, but it comes a poor second to the satisfaction gained from having jaws round something.

 

For far too long, humans have tried to control animals using force, punishment and pain. It is only relatively recently that people are finally understanding what makes dogs tick/ Problem is, as Casso said, there are a lot of dog owners out there with high drive dogs, who really don't understand how to work with the dog's drive. There is only one way to manage these dogs, no matter what their breeding, and that is by using our big human brains to outsmart the dog. This isn't 'conning' the dog at all, it is simply using what we have in order to channel or shape the dog's instincts in the direction and way we want them to work.

 

Dogs are simple creatures, and most can be trained quite easily providing we put a framework of acceptable behaviour in place when the dog is a puppy. Trouble is, we've bred them to be harder, faster, have more drive, more heart, than any wild animal alive, and a lot of people who aren't experienced with such dogs find themselves driving a Ferrari rather than the Mini they'd hoped for.

 

Dogs like some Saluki types, and Bull crosses, need careful rearing where they can be taught to see their owner as the source of all fun and satisfaction, long before they get out in the field hunting real live animals. Allow them to learn to hunt for themselves before you have that handle on their nature, and you'll never get them back to how you want them to behave when you're hunting together. The dog will have learned that it doesn't need you to take it hunting, and you're now a spare part with no real status out in the field.

 

The drive to chase and kill is far stronger than anything you can offer in return, unless you harness that drive when the dog is a pup, simulating the kill by transferring their focus on to a ball or a rag. This still won't replace the real thing, but it does give you the opportunity to condition the way the dog sees you, and your relevance and importance will still hold good in the field.

 

[echo 24]

we have a german shepherd near where i live and she ties it to the push chair, and when it see;s another dog it goes ballistic.It is about 5 years old and a complete pain in the asrse.I told her to give it a ball to carry and when it see;s another dogl ,it bites down on the ball and is now silent.

[dodger 2,765]

we have a german shepherd near where i live and she ties it to the push chair, and when it see;s another dog it goes ballistic.It is about 5 years old and a complete pain in the asrse.I told her to give it a ball to carry and when it see;s another dogl ,it bites down on the ball and is now silent.

first thing id be tellin her is not to tie a big strong dog like that to a push chair especially if it goes mental when it shes other dogs she must be mental feckin el lol

[stormyboy 1,352]

Excellent post Skycat. Refreshing change from some of the advice given on here! A lot of dogs seem to be taken into the field with only rudimentary training. (At best.)

[Clipper 207]

excellent post skycat

[morton 5,368]

Some of this "modern education" is all well and good,id say the majority of it even works,the thing is most of it is what some have always utilised in their training and education,to some degree or other.A driven dog needs its drive steered towards its purpose,to hunt,run,chase and catch.Be that on its own or part of a team.A dog that then decides to use its drive detrimentally and away from its purpose needs a little more resolve from the owner,modern training methods will often aid and assist its tutorship,yet some old fashioned education,harsh yet fair,is often the difference that seperates a cull from a useful member of the team,not all dogs,especially the more resolute and driven,fair well to a more reasoned and cultured approach,old or new.

[paulus 26]

so how does any of that stop a highly prey driven dog pushing itself beyond its own physical limits whilst running quarry?? and therein lies the problem

[whippet 99 2,613]

Rather than go a bit off topic from the other thread, I've copied Casso's post to introduce a little bit I've just put together to illustrate a high drive dog and how I manage him, without squashing his drive, or resorting to brute force, something which wouldn't work anyway.

 

 

Working dogs have always been bred for heart , that what makes them so loyal and inspiring to man kind,

 

It's only modern society that has a problem with this , in other working dog related activities no one is not breeding with heart in mind , the problem lies with the uneducated owner not the dog , been breeding for drive all my life with varies type of dog and have never had a problem that could be solved with a less driven dog for working purpose ,

 

If you understand it you can control it , drive is easily channeled but it all comes down to understanding it not rejecting it out of hand,

That's it in a nutshell: working with the drive rather than trying to damp it down by brute force. Here's a totally different example of what drive makes a dog do:

Picture this: Chance, highly-driven Saluki type, more like a raging bull in his head His drive is so big that he's a sod when getting worked up around other dogs before we go out. Note, BEFORE, not during hunting. He directs all that crazy energy and drive into jumping on the other dogs, grabbing their heads in his jaws, not hard, but annoying. In the van, he's the same until we start moving towards our destination. Took some doing to calm him down during travelling, but I got there in the end. I used a very simple method indeed. The dog is ball crazy: he has learned it is the one thing he is allowed to grab and play with and retrieve. So instead of muzzling him in the van, or tying him up tight like a horse to a hitching post, I give him a tennis ball to mouth while I get the other dogs into the van.

He's happy with the ball in his mouth. He closes his jaws on it, squashing it quite a lot, but never tries to rip it to pieces. His drive is being directed towards the ball, and the need to grab, bite and exert pressure on something with his jaws keeps him occupied and directed away from the other dogs. It works a treat.

Similarly, because I have trained him to do this, made him ball obsessed, he is easy to control when we're out. I use a certain sharp but happy tone of voice to call his name when I want him to come to me. It's the same tone I use when I play tug games and ball games with him at home. Now, this wouldn't work if he's in pursuit of something alive (he is pure sighthound with a fair dose of Saluki after all!), but in all other situations it gives me a really good handle on the dog, and he's learned that there is a good deal of satisfaction to be had up close with me.

Titbits wouldn't work with a dog like this, nor does punishment. High drive dogs are seldom at all pain sensitive: which is one of the reasons they'll keep running long after their body has screamed that it's had enough. Food is a good lure if the prey drive hasn't kicked in, but it comes a poor second to the satisfaction gained from having jaws round something.

 

For far too long, humans have tried to control animals using force, punishment and pain. It is only relatively recently that people are finally understanding what makes dogs tick/ Problem is, as Casso said, there are a lot of dog owners out there with high drive dogs, who really don't understand how to work with the dog's drive. There is only one way to manage these dogs, no matter what their breeding, and that is by using our big human brains to outsmart the dog. This isn't 'conning' the dog at all, it is simply using what we have in order to channel or shape the dog's instincts in the direction and way we want them to work.

 

Dogs are simple creatures, and most can be trained quite easily providing we put a framework of acceptable behaviour in place when the dog is a puppy. Trouble is, we've bred them to be harder, faster, have more drive, more heart, than any wild animal alive, and a lot of people who aren't experienced with such dogs find themselves driving a Ferrari rather than the Mini they'd hoped for.

 

Dogs like some Saluki types, and Bull crosses, need careful rearing where they can be taught to see their owner as the source of all fun and satisfaction, long before they get out in the field hunting real live animals. Allow them to learn to hunt for themselves before you have that handle on their nature, and you'll never get them back to how you want them to behave when you're hunting together. The dog will have learned that it doesn't need you to take it hunting, and you're now a spare part with no real status out in the field.

 

The drive to chase and kill is far stronger than anything you can offer in return, unless you harness that drive when the dog is a pup, simulating the kill by transferring their focus on to a ball or a rag. This still won't replace the real thing, but it does give you the opportunity to condition the way the dog sees you, and your relevance and importance will still hold good in the field.

 

prime example why working bred dogs unless injured or retired ,......shouldn't go too pet homes,.........for one they don't put them right when young and secondly when there matured they wonder why they cant control them .............and they are either handed in or passed on ............

working dogs need a lot of stimulation and aren't for the faint hearted,...........work bred = working home......good topic sky cat

[weasle 1,119]

Driven must be the word of the week,surely a dog that isn't is a cull ,always was?

[morton 5,368]

so how does any of that stop a highly prey driven dog pushing itself beyond its own physical limits whilst running quarry?? and therein lies the problem

Long leash and 4 ft of water pipe?.

[BORDERSCOT 3,816]

so how does any of that stop a highly prey driven dog pushing itself beyond its own physical limits whilst running quarry?? and therein lies the problem

 

Just about to go down that route myself Paul.....for me and one of my dogs that is exactly the problem....

[morton 5,368]

Driven must be the word of the week,surely a dog that isn't is a cull ,always was?

Possibly?,ive had less driven dogs that could,nt account for some of the chases in front of them,yet in another kennel they were more than useful mutts.Depends on the kennel they are in i suppose,a less driven jukel will find its place,if given the right opportunity.

[paulsmithy83 567]

I only read casso part lol but to me for the topic title . a shit load of work night and day. I'm yet to find a dog out of control or struggled with regardless of cross even with shit loads of drive if worked hard enough. Usually most have probs because they ain't out enough just my take

[morton 5,368]

I only read casso part lol but to me for the topic title . a shit load of work night and day. I'm yet to find a dog out of control or struggled with regardless of cross even with shit loads of drive if worked hard enough. Usually most have probs because they ain't out enough just my take

I once owned a dog,old Blue,the original type HJKC,lamped him,ferreted him,coursed him and worked him with the terriers,the dog was a working machine.At times he would have his Blue days and attack anything in range,quarry,dog or human,he rarely gave signals of his intention,just did what he saw best at times,no amount of training or education could account for his drive,mood,or manner,if he was not such a reliable catching and killing machine the dog would have been a cull,none of my hunting partners at the time would take a dog out with him,or enter a vehicle he was in,he was that unpredictable,a little harsh treatment to his less than desirable demeanor was the salvation of the dog,you had to belt him as soon as he left the vehicle,then he worked flawlessly.How would anyone train that sort of dog reasonably and with a gentler touch?.

[skycat 6,173]

 

I only read casso part lol but to me for the topic title . a shit load of work night and day. I'm yet to find a dog out of control or struggled with regardless of cross even with shit loads of drive if worked hard enough. Usually most have probs because they ain't out enough just my take

I once owned a dog,old Blue,the original type HJKC,lamped him,ferreted him,coursed him and worked him with the terriers,the dog was a working machine.At times he would have his Blue days and attack anything in range,quarry,dog or human,he rarely gave signals of his intention,just did what he saw best at times,no amount of training or education could account for his drive,mood,or manner,if he was not such a reliable catching and killing machine the dog would have been a cull,none of my hunting partners at the time would take a dog out with him,or enter a vehicle he was in,he was that unpredictable,a little harsh treatment to his less than desirable demeanor was the salvation of the dog,you had to belt him as soon as he left the vehicle,then he worked flawlessly.How would anyone train that sort of dog reasonably and with a gentler touch?.

 

You can't. I've had similar dogs. Scruff them, lift them off the ground (well, as high as I can with a dog more than half my own weight ), eyeball them, snarl nastily into their faces: now mind your bloody manners or else and job done. I guess it's no different to any pack leader in the wild sorting out the OTT members before they start hunting. There used to be a saying amongst old time shooting men: Have you beaten your dogs today, gentlemen?

 

Trouble is, how do you teach the less experienced owner how and when to apply what type of training/harsh treatment? How do they learn, the owners, that is, how to handle that sort of dog? Only time and experience will teach that skill. And many are never capable of learning, lack the ability at a basic level. And imagine if someone who isn't sure of themselves aggressed such a dog: they'd end up having to put the dog down for biting them!