22 Subsonic

[Deker 3,478]

You do an excellent job of coming accross as a book smart, condecending prick in most of your posts Deker. I said i'd never found LR lead in a rabbit cavity / under the skin on the opposite side, with the numbers i've shot my assumption would be because the lead had all passed through. I then clarity my 'Daft ill considered post' knowing you'd probably be rubbing your hands with glee and here we are.

 

Show me the lead then.

 

Anything else you would like to change, you didn't say ANY of the above until this post, what you said was.......

 

"I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots"

 

 

 

"You do an excellent job of coming accross as a book smart, condecending prick in most of your posts Deker"

 

Some make it easy, but you will find I can usually spell and VERY rarely have to resort to abusive language.

[Yokel Matt 918]

Whatever Deker - your high opinion of yourself makes me laugh.

 

Ill make a mental note to carefully check rabbits for lead retention and if I find any ill beg forgiveness for having ever posted such a reckless statement.

 

You're still a dick though.

[Alsone 789]

 

 

 

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

 

 

Of course its not uncommon, I shoot many hundred every year, where I struggle is with the comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

I never said that, not my quote. You appear to have questioned my response though, my apologies if that was not aimed at me.

 

It wasn't and if you haven't already gathered from my now numerous posts, I don't make personal attacks. Well maybe if someone gets overly personal but that's very rare I'm a very laid back individual.

 

 

And if you have seen MANY a bullet pass clean through and ricochet then I can but suggest your pal has a lot to learn about shot placement and ammo choice!

 

 

 

A round that fragments is much safer than a round that expands from a ricocheting pov as the energy is divided between each individual fragment so the fragments are much less likely to exit and fly much less further if they do. To put it another way, if your .22 subs hits with 99ft lbs, then you have 1 mass with 99 ft lbs of energy. If your HMR hits with 300 ft pounds of energy and fragments into ten, then you have 10 fragments with only 30ft lbs of energy and far less mass. Less energy and less mass results in an object coming to rest much faster and also the smaller the object the greater the surface friction to mass ratio. For someone who reads a lot it appears you did not understand my qualified response, that is NOT what I said. Of course .22lr subs can pass clean through, that is what shot placement and ammo choice will minimise, to say you prefer HMR to .22lr because it doesn't ricochet is an admission of failure, what do you think the world did before HMR came along for well over 100 years with the .22lr, people learnt to use it and match quarry/land/ammo as best as possible! They didn't say "Oh I had a ricochet, the .22lr is dangerous I must get something else". There is no argument that .22lr can ricochet, but ammo can be found in a VAST array of types, weights and energy from around 30ft lb to just over 200ft lb, so in the majority of cases a ricochet is down to wrong shot placement or wrong ammo choice. Many will also tell you their 30ft lb .22 Air rifles goes clean through a rabbit, so what do you do about that, tell them to buy a HMR?

 

Just because a particular round has existed for 100 years doesn't mean that something newer that comes along can't be better in some respects. HMR has its faults but it also kills better due to hydrostatic shock and it has less chance of ricochet due to the Hornday tip and high velocity. Is it better than .22? Not necessarily. It depends what you want. Each has their own strengths in different areas. However, when it comes to ricocheting, you'll find very few people report ricochets with hmr whereas they're quite frequent with .22.

 

As for it being an admission of failure if you suffer a pass through with .22 sub, then I don't accept that. No-one can predict the exact bullet path and in a small soft bodied animal a percentage of pass throughs are inevitable. You can't get lower powered than a sub in LR (I'm quite well aware of shorts and percussion caps but they're not strictly LR) and whereas bullet weights do differ, the difference isn't great enough to really guarantee any differing outcome - 4 grains isn't going to make any real difference at those velocities, and in the field its simply not possible to switch ammo 99% of the time when you walk up on a rabbit. If you were laying in wait from cover you might have more chance but there's still the risk of the action sound. I don't know of anyone who carries more than 1 variety of sub in the field. Some carry HV's and subs, the latter for fox. but I've never heard of anyone trying to reload different varieties of sub in the field on the fly.

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years. Try and find someone else then, or get your own ticket and find out.

 

I've no reason to believe my friend is anything other than competent and to suggest that he isn't because he suffers a pass through with .22 occasionally is a little ridiculous in my book considering most people suffer regular pass throughs with .22.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2013 by Alsone

[sprocker dog 7]

When it's your job to get rid of pests you do spend a lot of time shooting rabbits and other vermin. Done 3 nights in the last week and shot 393 , it's the busy weeks of the year that make the numbers up,spring and autumn are the busiest. For the record we cover a very large area probably totalling 20 000 acres. I'm not into the numbers game , I only wanted to know if any other people have noticed any change in that ammo. Thanks for all your comments.

[Deker 3,478]

 

 

 

 

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

 

 

Of course its not uncommon, I shoot many hundred every year, where I struggle is with the comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

I never said that, not my quote. You appear to have questioned my response though, my apologies if that was not aimed at me.

 

It wasn't and if you haven't already gathered from my now numerous posts, I don't make personal attacks. Well maybe if someone gets overly personal but that's very rare I'm a very laid back individual.

 

 

And if you have seen MANY a bullet pass clean through and ricochet then I can but suggest your pal has a lot to learn about shot placement and ammo choice!

 

 

 

A round that fragments is much safer than a round that expands from a ricocheting pov as the energy is divided between each individual fragment so the fragments are much less likely to exit and fly much less further if they do. To put it another way, if your .22 subs hits with 99ft lbs, then you have 1 mass with 99 ft lbs of energy. If your HMR hits with 300 ft pounds of energy and fragments into ten, then you have 10 fragments with only 30ft lbs of energy and far less mass. Less energy and less mass results in an object coming to rest much faster and also the smaller the object the greater the surface friction to mass ratio. For someone who reads a lot it appears you did not understand my qualified response, that is NOT what I said. Of course .22lr subs can pass clean through, that is what shot placement and ammo choice will minimise, to say you prefer HMR to .22lr because it doesn't ricochet is an admission of failure, what do you think the world did before HMR came along for well over 100 years with the .22lr, people learnt to use it and match quarry/land/ammo as best as possible! They didn't say "Oh I had a ricochet, the .22lr is dangerous I must get something else". There is no argument that .22lr can ricochet, but ammo can be found in a VAST array of types, weights and energy from around 30ft lb to just over 200ft lb, so in the majority of cases a ricochet is down to wrong shot placement or wrong ammo choice. Many will also tell you their 30ft lb .22 Air rifles goes clean through a rabbit, so what do you do about that, tell them to buy a HMR?

 

Just because a particular round has existed for 100 years doesn't mean that something newer that comes along can't be better in some respects. Did I say that? HMR has its faults but it also kills better due to hydrostatic shock DEAD IS DEAD, you can't get better than dead !and it has less chance of ricochet less chance of ricochet compared to what, the right .22 ammo an air rifle, a .223, what, why do you need a 245ft lb HMR to stop a rabbit, what you need is the right tool and ammo. due to the Hornday tip and high velocity. Is it better than .22? Not necessarily. It depends what you want. Each has their own strengths in different areas. However, when it comes to ricocheting, you'll find very few people report ricochets with hmr whereas they're quite frequent with .22. Most commonly because they use the wrong .22 ammo in the circumstances or shot placement. Try some of the HMR FMJ or HP and watch the ricochet count go up..... no, of course you wouldn't use that would you, because its the wrong ammo commonly for field work, so what makes that different to using the wrong .22?

 

As for it being an admission of failure if you suffer a pass through with .22 sub, then I don't accept that. No-one can predict the exact bullet path and in a small soft bodied animal a percentage of pass throughs are inevitable. Don't talk daft, of course they are inevitable if you use too powerful/inappropriate ammo You can't get lower powered than a sub in LR (I'm quite well aware of shorts and percussion caps but they're not strictly LR) There are plenty of other rounds compatible with LR, such as caps, shorts, longs, shotshell and these http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=960 and whereas bullet weights do differ, the difference isn't great enough to really guarantee any differing outcome - 4 grains isn't going to make any real difference at those velocities, and in the field its simply not possible to switch ammo 99% of the time when you walk up on a rabbit. If you were laying in wait from cover you might have more chance but there's still the risk of the action sound. I don't know of anyone who carries more than 1 variety of sub in the field. Some carry HV's and subs, the latter for fox. but I've never heard of anyone trying to reload different varieties of sub in the field on the fly. You have got your head stuck on subs, there are PLENTY of other rounds for .22, and just because people can't be bothered to use the right .22 ammo that is no reason to suggest you need a HMR

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years. Try and find someone else then, or get your own ticket and find out.

 

I've no reason to believe my friend is anything other than competent and to suggest that he isn't because he suffers a pass through with .22 occasionally is a little ridiculous in my book considering most people suffer regular pass throughs with .22. That is NOT what you said, your comment..... My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. Just where have I suggested it doesn't happen, when you make a comment like that it is simple, you are using the wrong ammo or shot placement is almost always the answer.

 

So what it happens to lots of people, that doesn't doesn't make the HMR better, it has happened to me a few times, and it annoys me intensely because when it does I can usually see/understand where I went wrong.

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2013 by Deker

[Yokel Matt 918]

When it's your job to get rid of pests you do spend a lot of time shooting rabbits and other vermin. Done 3 nights in the last week and shot 393 , it's the busy weeks of the year that make the numbers up,spring and autumn are the busiest. For the record we cover a very large area probably totalling 20 000 acres. I'm not into the numbers game , I only wanted to know if any other people have noticed any change in that ammo. Thanks for all your comments.

I can well believe it, some parts of the country you can shoot them until you get bored or run out of ammo. Ill bet paunching gets tedious!

[Deker 3,478]

 

 

 

 

 

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

 

 

Of course its not uncommon, I shoot many hundred every year, where I struggle is with the comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

I never said that, not my quote. You appear to have questioned my response though, my apologies if that was not aimed at me.

 

It wasn't and if you haven't already gathered from my now numerous posts, I don't make personal attacks. Well maybe if someone gets overly personal but that's very rare I'm a very laid back individual.

 

 

And if you have seen MANY a bullet pass clean through and ricochet then I can but suggest your pal has a lot to learn about shot placement and ammo choice!

 

 

 

A round that fragments is much safer than a round that expands from a ricocheting pov as the energy is divided between each individual fragment so the fragments are much less likely to exit and fly much less further if they do. To put it another way, if your .22 subs hits with 99ft lbs, then you have 1 mass with 99 ft lbs of energy. If your HMR hits with 300 ft pounds of energy and fragments into ten, then you have 10 fragments with only 30ft lbs of energy and far less mass. Less energy and less mass results in an object coming to rest much faster and also the smaller the object the greater the surface friction to mass ratio. For someone who reads a lot it appears you did not understand my qualified response, that is NOT what I said. Of course .22lr subs can pass clean through, that is what shot placement and ammo choice will minimise, to say you prefer HMR to .22lr because it doesn't ricochet is an admission of failure, what do you think the world did before HMR came along for well over 100 years with the .22lr, people learnt to use it and match quarry/land/ammo as best as possible! They didn't say "Oh I had a ricochet, the .22lr is dangerous I must get something else". There is no argument that .22lr can ricochet, but ammo can be found in a VAST array of types, weights and energy from around 30ft lb to just over 200ft lb, so in the majority of cases a ricochet is down to wrong shot placement or wrong ammo choice. Many will also tell you their 30ft lb .22 Air rifles goes clean through a rabbit, so what do you do about that, tell them to buy a HMR?

 

Just because a particular round has existed for 100 years doesn't mean that something newer that comes along can't be better in some respects. Did I say that? HMR has its faults but it also kills better due to hydrostatic shock DEAD IS DEAD, you can't get better than dead !and it has less chance of ricochet less chance of ricochet compared to what, the right .22 ammo, an air rifle, a .223, what, why do you need a 245ft lb HMR to stop a rabbit, what you need is the right tool and ammo. due to the Hornday tip and high velocity. Is it better than .22? Not necessarily. It depends what you want. Each has their own strengths in different areas. However, when it comes to ricocheting, you'll find very few people report ricochets with hmr whereas they're quite frequent with .22. Most commonly because they use the wrong .22 ammo in the circumstances or shot placement. Try some of the HMR FMJ or HP and watch the ricochet count go up..... no, of course you wouldn't use that would you, because its the wrong ammo commonly for field work, so what makes that different to using the wrong .22?

 

As for it being an admission of failure if you suffer a pass through with .22 sub, then I don't accept that. No-one can predict the exact bullet path and in a small soft bodied animal a percentage of pass throughs are inevitable. Of course a % will pass through for a variety of reasons, however hard you try to avoid it, and of course they are inevitable if you use too powerful/inappropriate ammo for the quarry. You can't get lower powered than a sub in LR (I'm quite well aware of shorts and percussion caps but they're not strictly LR) There are plenty of other rounds compatible with LR, such as caps, shorts, longs, shotshell and these, http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=960 this IS .22lr at 45ft lb., and the Segmenting version (loadNo970) is on its way to our shores soon I understand, even these, http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0074 which are probably about as close to a V-Max as we are likely to get at the moment in .22lr and specifically designed to cause terminal damage and reduce over penetration/ricochet chances! and whereas bullet weights do differ, the difference isn't great enough to really guarantee any differing outcome - 4 grains isn't going to make any real difference at those velocities, and in the field its simply not possible to switch ammo 99% of the time when you walk up on a rabbit. If you were laying in wait from cover you might have more chance but there's still the risk of the action sound. I don't know of anyone who carries more than 1 variety of sub in the field. Some carry HV's and subs, the latter for fox. but I've never heard of anyone trying to reload different varieties of sub in the field on the fly. You have got your head stuck on subs, there are PLENTY of other rounds for .22, and just because people can't be bothered to use the right .22 ammo that is no reason to suggest you need a HMR

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years. Try and find someone else then, or get your own ticket and find out.

 

I've no reason to believe my friend is anything other than competent and to suggest that he isn't because he suffers a pass through with .22 occasionally is a little ridiculous in my book considering most people suffer regular pass throughs with .22. That is NOT what you said, your comment..... My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. Just where have I suggested it doesn't happen, when you make a comment like that it is simple, you are using the wrong ammo or shot placement is almost always the answer.

 

So what it happens to lots of people, that doesn't make the HMR better, it has happened to me a few times, and it annoys me intensely because when it does I can usually see/understand where I went wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many colours have we got left to play with?

Edited September 17, 2013 by Deker

[Alsone 789]

Just because a particular round has existed for 100 years doesn't mean that something newer that comes along can't be better in some respects. Did I say that? HMR has its faults but it also kills better due to hydrostatic shock DEAD IS DEAD, you can't get better than dead !and it has less chance of ricochet less chance of ricochet compared to what, the right .22 ammo an air rifle, a .223, what, why do you need a 245ft lb HMR to stop a rabbit, what you need is the right tool and ammo.

 

Due to .22 Sub which was what we were talking about and HMR is an ideal tool for rabbit provided you head shoot and not body shoot if you want them for food. The advantage of HMR over .22 is range and less chance of a ricochet. The advantage of .22 is stealth and cheaper ammo and if eating, less flesh destruction. Either way what's ideal is a matter of opinion. What isn't in dispute though is the fact that .22 is more prone to pass through even with a sub.

 

 

due to the Hornday tip and high velocity. Is it better than .22? Not necessarily. It depends what you want. Each has their own strengths in different areas. However, when it comes to ricocheting, you'll find very few people report ricochets with hmr whereas they're quite frequent with .22. Most commonly because they use the wrong .22 ammo in the circumstances or shot placement. Try some of the HMR FMJ or HP and watch the ricochet count go up..... no, of course you wouldn't use that would you, because its the wrong ammo commonly for field work, so what makes that different to using the wrong .22?

 

Again you accuse my friend of using the wrong ammo. Yet its the very same Winchester SP you were advocating earlier in the thread. As for shot placement, there are only 2 real choices head or chest and no-one can guarantee a shot won't pass through as its just going to depend on exactly what structures it hits on the way through. You can only place a bullet in the right area, the exact path down to the millimetre is down to luck.

 

As for it being an admission of failure if you suffer a pass through with .22 sub, then I don't accept that. No-one can predict the exact bullet path and in a small soft bodied animal a percentage of pass throughs are inevitable. Don't talk daft, of course they are inevitable if you use too powerful/inappropriate ammo

 

Sorry Deker but this argument is becoming bull. How can .22 Winchester SP sub as advocated by you earlier be the wrong ammo?

 

You can't get lower powered than a sub in LR (I'm quite well aware of shorts and percussion caps but they're not strictly LR) There are plenty of other rounds compatible with LR, such as caps, shorts, longs, shotshell and these http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=960 and whereas bullet weights do differ, the difference isn't great enough to really guarantee any differing outcome - 4 grains isn't going to make any real difference at those velocities, and in the field its simply not possible to switch ammo 99% of the time when you walk up on a rabbit. If you were laying in wait from cover you might have more chance but there's still the risk of the action sound. I don't know of anyone who carries more than 1 variety of sub in the field. Some carry HV's and subs, the latter for fox. but I've never heard of anyone trying to reload different varieties of sub in the field on the fly. You have got your head stuck on subs, there are PLENTY of other rounds for .22, and just because people can't be bothered to use the right .22 ammo that is no reason to suggest you need a HMR

 

It would be irresponsible to shoot anything live that's rabbit sized with percussion caps. Shorts aren't so different to subs, very similar energy and higher velocity which then increases the pass through chance once more. Shot shells are no good from more than a few feet and designed primarily for ratting.

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years. Try and find someone else then, or get your own ticket and find out.

 

I've no reason to believe my friend is anything other than competent and to suggest that he isn't because he suffers a pass through with .22 occasionally is a little ridiculous in my book considering most people suffer regular pass throughs with .22. That is NOT what you said, your comment..... My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. Just where have I suggested it doesn't happen, when you make a comment like that it is simple, you are using the wrong ammo or shot placement is almost always the answer.

 

Again I don't accept that. .22 with the higher bullet weight and no fragmentation is more prone to pass through by design. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

So what it happens to lots of people, that doesn't doesn't make the HMR better, it has happened to me a few times, and it annoys me intensely because when it does I can usually see/understand where I went wrong.

 

Never said it made it better. What it is, is 1 advantage of HMR. Both rounds have their own strengths. You talk as if .22 LR is the holy grail of shooting but the fact is every round has strengths and weaknesses and whereas .22 is ideal for small game, it does suffer pass throughs due to lack of fragmentation and the size of game involved. The choice between .22 LR and HMR is a personal one based on the best compromise for your circumstances, I don't believe either is the holy grail or either is perfect and right. Whatever round you shoot, you compromise somewhere.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Alsone

[Deker 3,478]

Just because a particular round has existed for 100 years doesn't mean that something newer that comes along can't be better in some respects. Did I say that? HMR has its faults but it also kills better due to hydrostatic shock DEAD IS DEAD, you can't get better than dead !and it has less chance of ricochet less chance of ricochet compared to what, the right .22 ammo an air rifle, a .223, what, why do you need a 245ft lb HMR to stop a rabbit, what you need is the right tool and ammo.

 

Due to .22 Sub which was what we were talking about ok if we are talking .22 subs over penetrating the answer is simple, it is the WRONG ammo and HMR is an ideal tool for rabbit provided you head shoot and not body shoot if you want them for food. The advantage of HMR over .22 is range and less chance of a ricochet. The advantage of .22 is stealth and cheaper ammo and if eating, less flesh destruction. Either way what's ideal is a matter of opinion. What isn't in dispute though is the fact that .22 is more prone to pass through even with a sub. You are not hearing me, put the right .22 in a bunny and its chances of over penetrating are slim!

 

 

 

 

due to the Hornday tip and high velocity. Is it better than .22? Not necessarily. It depends what you want. Each has their own strengths in different areas. However, when it comes to ricocheting, you'll find very few people report ricochets with hmr whereas they're quite frequent with .22. Most commonly because they use the wrong .22 ammo in the circumstances or shot placement. Try some of the HMR FMJ or HP and watch the ricochet count go up..... no, of course you wouldn't use that would you, because its the wrong ammo commonly for field work, so what makes that different to using the wrong .22?

 

Again you accuse my friend of using the wrong ammo. Yet its the very same Winchester SP you were advocating earlier in the thread. Your "mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the paths" , so that is clearly an admission that he is using the wrong ammo in the circumstances. As for shot placement, there are only 2 real choices head or chest oh dear, in pest control you will find there are other very effective places to deliver your bullet! and no-one can guarantee a shot won't pass through Who made ANY guarantee of stopping a bullet pass through, can you guarantee a HMR will not do the same? as its just going to depend on exactly what structures it hits on the way through. You can only place a bullet in the right area, the exact path down to the millimetre is down to luck. Luck is a word shooters tend to use sparingly, as an old friend of mine once said, "funny really, it seems the more experienced I get the luckier I become!"

 

As for it being an admission of failure if you suffer a pass through with .22 sub, then I don't accept that. No-one can predict the exact bullet path and in a small soft bodied animal a percentage of pass throughs are inevitable. Don't talk daft, of course they are inevitable if you use too powerful/inappropriate ammo

 

Sorry Deker but this argument is becoming bull. How can .22 Winchester SP sub as advocated by you earlier be the wrong ammo? Because if it causes the results you say your mate is experiencing it clearly is for him.

 

You can't get lower powered than a sub in LR (I'm quite well aware of shorts and percussion caps but they're not strictly LR) There are plenty of other rounds compatible with LR, such as caps, shorts, longs, shotshell and these http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=960 and whereas bullet weights do differ, the difference isn't great enough to really guarantee any differing outcome - 4 grains isn't going to make any real difference at those velocities, and in the field its simply not possible to switch ammo 99% of the time when you walk up on a rabbit. If you were laying in wait from cover you might have more chance but there's still the risk of the action sound. I don't know of anyone who carries more than 1 variety of sub in the field. Some carry HV's and subs, the latter for fox. but I've never heard of anyone trying to reload different varieties of sub in the field on the fly. You have got your head stuck on subs, there are PLENTY of other rounds for .22, and just because people can't be bothered to use the right .22 ammo that is no reason to suggest you need a HMR

 

It would be irresponsible to shoot anything live that's rabbit sized with percussion caps. What are you talking about, look up BB and CB Caps Shorts aren't so different to subs, very similar energy and higher velocity which then increases the pass through chance once more. Rubbish, they tend to be a lot lighter, go faster and ricochet less as a result, regardless of any possible over penetration, the HP versions also open up well generally on many small animals also minimising over penetration, perhaps you should suggest your mate tries them!. Shot shells are no good from more than a few feet and designed primarily for ratting. I think you will find Shot shells were designed primarily for snakes, just so happens we don't have that many to deal with in the UK so they are primarily used at close range and often internally for birds/squirrels/rodents!

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years. Try and find someone else then, or get your own ticket and find out.

 

I've no reason to believe my friend is anything other than competent and to suggest that he isn't because he suffers a pass through with .22 occasionally is a little ridiculous in my book considering most people suffer regular pass throughs with .22. That is NOT what you said, your comment..... My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. Just where have I suggested it doesn't happen, when you make a comment like that it is simple, you are using the wrong ammo or shot placement is almost always the answer.

 

Again I don't accept that. .22 with the higher bullet weight and no fragmentation is more prone to pass through by design. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not sure what you don't accept, if a bullet passes clean through and ricochets MANY times it is clearly the wrong bullet!

 

So what it happens to lots of people, that doesn't doesn't make the HMR better, it has happened to me a few times, and it annoys me intensely because when it does I can usually see/understand where I went wrong.

 

Never said it made it better. What it is, is 1 advantage of HMR. Both rounds have their own strengths. You talk as if .22 LR is the holy grail of shooting Rubbish, I have Air, FAC Air, .22lr, HMR, WMR etc etc, .22isn't the Holy Grail of anything, it is a useful tool in the box if used appropriately with the right ammo in the right situation, as are all rifles. but the fact is every round has strengths and weaknesses and whereas .22 is ideal for small game, it does suffer pass throughs due to lack of fragmentation and the size of game involved. Heightened by using the WRONG ammo or wrong shot placement, you still don't get it, put a FMJ HMR round through a rabbit at the same distance and it will go clean through and potentially ricochet as well! The choice between .22 LR and HMR is a personal one based on the best compromise for your circumstances, Compromise is an inappropriate word, .22lr with its many ammo choices can be perfect in many situations, as can HMR I don't believe either is the holy grail or either is perfect and right. Whatever round you shoot, you compromise somewhere. Again you use this word compromise, why, we have a lot of calibres and a lot of different types/weight/energy of ammo, there is little or no compromise needed anywhere today if you chose the right calibre/ammo for the job!

 

Alsone, I have had ricochets from .22lr and I'd guess in probably 90% + of the situations I would put it down to user error, ie me, I do not blame the tools, I blame the person who chose the wrong tools!

Edited September 17, 2013 by Deker

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

I have so far tried Winchesters, Eleys, RWS and cci subs in my new cz452.

 

My gun preferred RWS for accuracy, and they grouped about an inch higher than the rest at 75m so maybe a bit flatter trajectory.

[sprocker dog 7]

 

Some interesting comments on this subject. Is all I can say is I shoot 10 000 rabbits a year as a pest controller and up until the new look winch esters came out there were certainly less bullets passing through. If head shot they don't seem to pass through, they sometimes ricochet but the hard whack report normally means the shot has been absorbed. I try not to shoot in the guts as this is not only in humane but being a softer area a 40 gr slug can pass through. The shots I've noticed passing through more than before are neck/ shoulder placements where there is enough bone to cause the bullet to partially expand. If some people are looking for lead in cavity then I would suggest trying to avoid shooting into the cavity in the first place and head shoot if possible.

 

There are a LOT of people here who haven't shot anything like that quantity in their whole life.

 

10,000 a year equates to approx. 27 a DAY, EVERY day of the year, that is a LOT of rabbits, there will be very few that achieve those numbers.

 

I don't shoot 27 rabbits every day of the whole year, that is just a silly comment. if you had any experience of shooting rabbits on a large scale as I and other pest controllers do then you would appreciate that 90% are shot at night using nv and when I say night it isn't just a couple of hours, it is normally dusk till dawn. some nights obviously are little productive but if clearing a heavily infested area it is not uncommon to shoot 3-400 in a single night some times. our busiest times are spring and autumn due to the breeding of rabbits and the harvesting of crops. I enjoy my work and enjoy shooting rabbits as much as the next guy whether its hundreds or just a few. I didn't put the amount on the post to boast about how many rabbits I kill per annum, that was the amount on average shot using 22lr rounds. I could go on about many more that are ferreted,netted,shotgunned and caught in drop boxes or gased but my original post was to ask if anyone has noticed the difference with the new look Winchesters. my comment on shooting 10 000 was just to indicate how many rounds I use in 22lr.

[Deker 3,478]

 

 

Some interesting comments on this subject. Is all I can say is I shoot 10 000 rabbits a year as a pest controller and up until the new look winch esters came out there were certainly less bullets passing through. If head shot they don't seem to pass through, they sometimes ricochet but the hard whack report normally means the shot has been absorbed. I try not to shoot in the guts as this is not only in humane but being a softer area a 40 gr slug can pass through. The shots I've noticed passing through more than before are neck/ shoulder placements where there is enough bone to cause the bullet to partially expand. If some people are looking for lead in cavity then I would suggest trying to avoid shooting into the cavity in the first place and head shoot if possible.

 

There are a LOT of people here who haven't shot anything like that quantity in their whole life.

 

10,000 a year equates to approx. 27 a DAY, EVERY day of the year, that is a LOT of rabbits, there will be very few that achieve those numbers.

 

I don't shoot 27 rabbits every day of the whole year, that is just a silly comment. if you had any experience of shooting rabbits on a large scale as I and other pest controllers do then you would appreciate that 90% are shot at night using nv and when I say night it isn't just a couple of hours, it is normally dusk till dawn. some nights obviously are little productive but if clearing a heavily infested area it is not uncommon to shoot 3-400 in a single night some times. our busiest times are spring and autumn due to the breeding of rabbits and the harvesting of crops. I enjoy my work and enjoy shooting rabbits as much as the next guy whether its hundreds or just a few. I didn't put the amount on the post to boast about how many rabbits I kill per annum, that was the amount on average shot using 22lr rounds. I could go on about many more that are ferreted,netted,shotgunned and caught in drop boxes or gased but my original post was to ask if anyone has noticed the difference with the new look Winchesters. my comment on shooting 10 000 was just to indicate how many rounds I use in 22lr.

 

 

 

Oh Dear!

[Alsone 789]

 

Alsone, I have had ricochets from .22lr and I'd guess in probably 90% + of the situations I would put it down to user error, ie me, I do not blame the tools, I blame the person who chose the wrong tools!

 

 

I really don't have the energy to go round in circles. Lets just agree to disagree on this one. I believe HMR is ricochet safer, you believe .22 is perfectly safe and on the occasional times that anything exits is the shooters fault.

 

Case closed.

[PLEDGEY 496]

Always used Winchester subs. Thought i would give Eley a try. They were OK but i have gone back to Winchesters. Reason for going back, the Eleys had a smell i really didn't like. Any one else notice this?.

[Deker 3,478]

 

 

Alsone, I have had ricochets from .22lr and I'd guess in probably 90% + of the situations I would put it down to user error, ie me, I do not blame the tools, I blame the person who chose the wrong tools!

 

 

I really don't have the energy to go round in circles. Lets just agree to disagree on this one. I believe HMR is ricochet safer, you believe .22 is perfectly safe and on the occasional times that anything exits is the shooters fault.

 

Case closed.

 

 

That isn't what I said! Please do NOT misquote me, I have never made any such blanket statement that .22 is perfectly safe and on the occasional times that anything exits is the shooters fault.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Deker