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[VOON 1,317]

think its explained in his first post gene pool very small and not enough dogs that are plummers getting enough proper work if a few more thought like wm there be a lot more plummer types underground getting proper work

Just thinking would a pat not have been more suitable? If there's not a large working gene pool of plummers, why not go for the best lines availible? Not knocking. Agree with the sentiment. Probably chose russel for the white gene...

[fireman 10,858]

 

think its explained in his first post gene pool very small and not enough dogs that are plummers getting enough proper work if a few more thought like wm there be a lot more plummer types underground getting proper work

Just thinking would a pat not have been more suitable? If there's not a large working gene pool of plummers, why not go for the best lines availible? Not knocking. Agree with the sentiment. Probably chose russel for the white gene...

He's said the dog works 100% and you can't get better than that and that's maybe why he chose it eh .

Good luck WC and have even thought of doing the same with my plummer and russell dog as it goes and the best of luck with your project.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

Just back in and caught up with the thread,firstly Voon,I actually put a wanted up a while ago for a red smooth coated fell/patt dog but there was none,I have spent the last 5 months travelling the country at shows and gamefairs looking for the right sort but it simply does not seem to exist nowadays,I have bred Plummers and nearly every hybrid cross from them of one sort or another since 1980,the first cross plummer/patt makes a great dog for earthwork but the black takes too long to breed out,hence the need for a red stud of the right size,breeding and work ethic,see below my old bitch fell/plummer cross,the black gene is too dominant

 

I ran out of time for finding a stud when the bitch broke down and there are not too many decent working russell types about,I did think of asking "alli" off here and then remembered a keeper not to far away that works this double coated dog,he has done a lot and is heavilly used each week through the season,good steady temperament and I have bred plummer/russells before,see pic of a pup

 

within a couple of generations you can get back to plummer type but healthy working terriers,the coat is the only problem being rough or broken, but many like it,I have bred plummers with Ken Gould,greg mouseley,Eddie Chapman,David Jones and lots of decent working russells in the past with varying results so there should be no surprises,but we shall see,WM

[Bosun11 537]

Fair play to you Wirralman, you know all too well form should always follow function.

 

Unfortunate that you cannot find the 'ideal' but you've made damn sure you've strived to breed workers... My hat off to you Sir...

 

Best of luck with the litter...

[CWN-HELA 228]

You know what your doing with your dog mate, best of luck with them.. Did you speak to the guy at bodalwyddan castle show, with the russell's? He mite of put you right.

[the_stig 6,614]

nice to see someone putting the effort in to get where they want to be ---no short cuts in this game... keep us updated

[wirral countryman 2,110]

The fell/plummers I bred were all bred off Brian Nuttall's stuff of the 80's and 90's and I even bred some 3/4 fell/plummers but they were too hard for me,here's a pic of one of my lads with the pups and he's 26 now,

 

I have photographed every litter since 1979 and only ever bred 1 dog with a cleft pallatte off a dog I used bred by Ken Gould,the types can vary greatly even in the same litter,take the one above bred in the early 90's,there are 3 distinct types,even a plummer,sometimes its a case of "suck it and see" ,WM

[VOON 1,317]

 

 

 

think its explained in his first post gene pool very small and not enough dogs that are plummers getting enough proper work if a few more thought like wm there be a lot more plummer types underground getting proper work

Just thinking would a pat not have been more suitable? If there's not a large working gene pool of plummers, why not go for the best lines availible? Not knocking. Agree with the sentiment. Probably chose russel for the white gene...

He's said the dog works 100% and you can't get better than that and that's maybe why he chose it eh .

Good luck WC and have even thought of doing the same with my plummer and russell dog as it goes and the best of luck with your project.

it was the steady part of the description i was thinking about. Most lads round my would have went for a hard type..following the rule "if they can't boss them, don't breed them"

 

How did the halfcrosses compare to the plummer for bushing, nose and ratting?

Best of luck with your project

[dee mac 579]

Voon thats a very navie statement men doing regular digging will put a steady dog before a hard dog everyday of the week for obvious reason s now people s version of hard varies a steady digging dog that know s his trade will get knocked about as there ll be time s when pressure is on they ll have to stand firm but the dog that run s in takes a hold at every chance is going to take grief that it could of avoided and be lay d up for weeks as for this oh i like a hard dog i do hear regular i suspect half the people saying this have never owned a proper hard dog there a full time job for a limited amount of digging !

[CorkyJohn 808]

"I have spent the last 5 months travelling the country at shows and gamefairs looking for the right sort".....

I'd have thought shows would've been the last place anyone would be looking for a working stud, good luck with the pups anyway & hope you get what you're looking for WCM

Edited August 28, 2013 by CorkyJohn

[VOON 1,317]

Not naive deemac, there's a difference between working and breeding. Most people i know would choose a dog that wouldn't be knocked around, ie a hardish dog...that's why people had bull to lines to stiffen them...unless the bitch being bred was a strong type..

[dee mac 579]

Everyone has an opinion voon but you breed to get workers and you only breed dogs that work is the way i see it as for the addition of bull blood into working strains im not a fan yes years ago it may have been needed and some of the good terriermen added it in but knew what they were doing and had a plan at this stage with the dogs that are about today i think bull blood is not the way to go the good line s of dogs are hard enough with out adding more blind hardness not to mention bad coats etc if you dog is lacking work wise no amount of bull blood will change that and as you said down your way they like to use hard dogs is that because maybe the majority of the bitch s maybe lacking a we bit or on the flip side does a man with a hard bitch only breed to a dog thats an out and out sounder ?

[gonetoearth 5,144]

"I have spent the last 5 months travelling the country at shows and gamefairs looking for the right sort".....

I'd have thought shows would've been the last place anyone would be looking for a working stud, good luck with the pups anyway & hope you get what you're looking for WCM

depend what shows corky

[wirral countryman 2,110]

Well chaps I'm back in for the moment so if anyone wants to ask anything I should be about laying a floor in a new downstairs toilet,uggghhhh !!! no-one can second guess what my thoughts are but most are near the mark in the comments.

Corky, I realise a lot of shows are attended by clean unworked terriers but some I've been to (Rochdale,etc ) have had some really well worked dogs if I'd of wanted a black/tan or red dog but I've met some good lads at shows on my travels that had better stuff at home,at 55yrs and worked dogs all my life I am able to sort the wheat from the chaff and I don't need someone to hold my hand on what I need,I also know a lot of well known and otherwise lads that heavilly work terriers up and down this country that did'nt suit what I needed,the Plummer terrier in its present form being bred by the associations is an unhealthy poor excuse for a terrier and there simply is'nt a dog out there that would not of bred health problems into my strain,there have been times when giving up on plummers would of been the easy option but I am as tenacious as I expect my dogs to be,you talk of hard dogs as if thats the only type we should breed off,I like a terrier that bolts if possible with a brain and if it needs to stay to get the job done then so be it,I can't and will not keep overly hard terriers that get smashed up on every time out,I live and hunt mainly in Cheshire and North Wales but do go to the highlands of Scotland and South Wales regularly so having terriers of that sort would only get me in trouble when stopped or challenged by the law as it stands in its present form,size is also an issue for me as I like a small tight little terrier that can fly around an earth without having to dig up to its quarry,you may say it takes all types and I would agree but I have had that t-shirt and its not one I personally care to wear anymore,I breed the type of dogs that suit me for the terrain I hunt,WM

[gonetoearth 5,144]

Just back in and caught up with the thread,firstly Voon,I actually put a wanted up a while ago for a red smooth coated fell/patt dog but there was none,I have spent the last 5 months travelling the country at shows and gamefairs looking for the right sort but it simply does not seem to exist nowadays,I have bred Plummers and nearly every hybrid cross from them of one sort or another since 1980,the first cross plummer/patt makes a great dog for earthwork but the black takes too long to breed out,hence the need for a red stud of the right size,breeding and work ethic,see below my old bitch fell/plummer cross,the black gene is too dominantscans 026.jpgI ran out of time for finding a stud when the bitch broke down and there are not too many decent working russell types about,I did think of asking "alli" off here and then remembered a keeper not to far away that works this double coated dog,he has done a lot and is heavilly used each week through the season,good steady temperament and I have bred plummer/russells before,see pic of a pupDSCN1182.jpgwithin a couple of generations you can get back to plummer type but healthy working terriers,the coat is the only problem being rough or broken, but many like it,I have bred plummers with Ken Gould,greg mouseley,Eddie Chapman,David Jones and lots of decent working russells in the past with varying results so there should be no surprises,but we shall see,WM

ah the old rail way line path many a dig on there and back on the train at west kirby terriers shovels and no one batted an eye lid imagine getting on now Lol