Breeding Lurchers From Scratch

[Sirius 1,391]

Are there many people who have seriously done it, say to create a dog with four breeds? I can only assume its a big commitment and a high % of failure.

Say, Source a decent pure bred, cross it to another pure bred, keep the progeny, raise it, work it test it over several seasons and if it comes up to scratch then breed it to maybe a F1 which has also come up to scratch?

I should think after all the planning, research, and finally breeding the dog only to realise it falls short of the bench mark, must be soul destroying however the chances of achieving to breed a dog of the type you set out to all those years before must be satisfying.

 

It would be good to hear people first hand experiences of woe and success?

 

Regards Sirius

Edited August 8, 2013 by Sirius

[Bossie 90]

Do you want to create a true breeding working type or a real breed? Suppose the first.

Using four breeds is a lot, a lot more than people realise. Within a breed the differences can be as big as between breeds. Depending on what you want I don't think you need four, especially with several allround breeds available.

 

Creating something like that is an extremely big commitment, not only in time but also in money. Start with the very best stock you can afford.

You'd have to evaluate your litters to a certain age and work all of them to decide which one to keep as breeding stock. Sell all the others. Get some friends involved.

 

Inbreeding, line breeding. Lots of culling and selling lots of dogs until you get your breeding right and start to produce constistently performing sound dogs. Cull hard in the beginning and only keep dogs later on when you breeding starts to improve.

I think being so dedicated over a 20 year period (which you'll need if you are doing this alone, friends involved should help a lot) is a huge commitment and only few will be able to keep on going. Depending on how many breeds/types you use, you'd have to wait several generations before you can start to see some constintancy.

 

Staring your own line within a breed/type is a challenge, starting a new breed is in a different league all together.

 

Out of curiosity, what kind of dog are you thinking about breeding?

[Sirius 1,391]

Thanks for your input Bossie, firstly I am not thinking of creating a new breed or particularly thinking of even breeding. Its just a hypothetical question and discussion.

I say 4 breeds but in reality it would be 3 breeds with the use of 2 dogs of the same breed I should think.

I am aware its a challenge and commitment in time and money, that's why I was asking to see if many members have seriously gone for it and what there thoughts were and did they get the outcome they wanted?

[Country Joe 1,411]

I like dogs with Bedlington in them, my preference is not going to far, just the first cross Beddy X Whippet, and finally back to the Whippet 3/4 Whippet X 1/4 Bedlington.

When breeding again say two 3/4 dogs, you can end up with some whippety in type and others more to the Bedlington, not saying they wouldn't be good Rabbiting dogs.

Funny all thing genetics, I really don't know much about it.

[Dead Eyes 681]

If you already have an idea in mind then youve probably seen the stamp of a dog you like.

 

Once you get 2 bitches and 2 male, of seperate breedings, along with 2 other studs, of the type you're wanting

 

I.e.; good workers, consistant coats etc.

 

Then you may be good to go - you can breed from these and not cross genetic paths till 4th gen or so

 

I think that works out right

[sandymere 8,263]

An interesting subject and one with no easy answers as far as working goes, genetics are pretty simple on paper but in the small complexities of what make a worker are infinitely complex. As an example, I had a good racing bitch, would stay over 600m, very consistent and sound plus good grubber etc, ran sensible on the track to keep out of trouble, inside or out to come through where there was space. So when I was offered her litter brother for free I asked no question just went and picked it up. Fecker couldn’t stay over 275m, noisy troublesome git in the kennel and got a career ending injury cutting across on the first bend after just a few races with us. Thousands of years of close genetic breeding, litter mates, like two peas in a pod yet opposite poles as far as physically capabilities within the context of performance.

 

It’s not difficult to re invent the wheel, ie take a type say terriers, add a smidge of something else like beagle then breed to get a look and call it a new terrier. What’s really happening is to just nick the few hundred years of previous breeding , add a veneer and a name. You could do this with a sight hound types, say mix some grey, saluki and just a smidge of collie or the like and basically you could breed to a certain look, say tri coloured and slightly feathered and in a couple of generations would have a line throwing a consistent type but would it really be new and would any ability be based on the later breeding of just those who went before and how consistent would ability really be?

Interesting though.

[desertbred 5,490]

once you get past a first cross what constitutes a mongrel ?

[Phil Lloyd 10,738]

Are there many people who have seriously done it, say to create a dog with four breeds? I can only assume its a big commitment and a high % of failure.

 

Say, Source a decent pure bred, cross it to another pure bred, keep the progeny, raise it, work it test it over several seasons and if it comes up to scratch then breed it to maybe a F1 which has also come up to scratch?

 

I should think after all the planning, research, and finally breeding the dog only to realise it falls short of the bench mark, must be soul destroying however the chances of achieving to breed a dog of the type you set out to all those years before must be satisfying.

 

It would be good to hear people first hand experiences of woe and success?

 

Regards Sirius

 

Yeah,..several times during my life,..I have had an urge to do something along those lines..but,..it is a long road and is, in my opinion,..a young man's game...

 

The first thing to consider is,..what is your objective ?

 

Secondly, is it achievable,...?

 

Thirdly,.given the nessesary culling involved , plus all the feckwits, you are destined to meet along the way.., is it worth it .

[desertbred 5,490]

 

Are there many people who have seriously done it, say to create a dog with four breeds? I can only assume its a big commitment and a high % of failure.

 

Say, Source a decent pure bred, cross it to another pure bred, keep the progeny, raise it, work it test it over several seasons and if it comes up to scratch then breed it to maybe a F1 which has also come up to scratch?

 

I should think after all the planning, research, and finally breeding the dog only to realise it falls short of the bench mark, must be soul destroying however the chances of achieving to breed a dog of the type you set out to all those years before must be satisfying.

 

It would be good to hear people first hand experiences of woe and success?

 

Regards Sirius

 

Yeah,..several times during my life,..I have had an urge to do something along those lines..but,..it is a long road and is, in my opinion,..a young man's game...

 

The first thing to consider is,..what is your objective ?

 

Secondly, is it achievable,...?

 

Thirdly,.given the nessesary culling involved , plus all the feckwits, you are destined to meet along the way..,is it worth it .

 

Look on the bright side with all the fuckwits about you would always have a ready market

[Phil Lloyd 10,738]

Admittedly, I only need rabbiting/mouching curs,..but I firmly believe,.. that if money is your only goal,.... you'll produce,.. feck all...

 

 

Edited August 8, 2013 by Phil Lloyd

[Bosun11 537]

I knew once you come into it Phil you would have the definitive..

 

When the Walsh book came out back in the 70's he dedicated a chapter called 'starting from scratch', I remember reading it and thought... Sounds fantastic but Feck that..!

 

Back then I couldn't see past my next nights lamping never mind a 20 year project... Nah, I think reading those pages, 'ol Ted may have put me off for life an thats why I've 'almost' always gone somewhere else for my stock.

 

Fair play to ya Phil, or anyone else thats taken up the baton and looking back I wish I had the vision... but I missed that boat...!

[baw 4,360]

An interesting subject and one with no easy answers as far as working goes, genetics are pretty simple on paper but in the small complexities of what make a worker are infinitely complex. As an example, I had a good racing bitch, would stay over 600m, very consistent and sound plus good grubber etc, ran sensible on the track to keep out of trouble, inside or out to come through where there was space. So when I was offered her litter brother for free I asked no question just went and picked it up. Fecker couldnt stay over 275m, noisy troublesome git in the kennel and got a career ending injury cutting across on the first bend after just a few races with us. Thousands of years of close genetic breeding, litter mates, like two peas in a pod yet opposite poles as far as physically capabilities within the context of performance.

 

Its not difficult to re invent the wheel, ie take a type say terriers, add a smidge of something else like beagle then breed to get a look and call it a new terrier. Whats really happening is to just nick the few hundred years of previous breeding , add a veneer and a name. You could do this with a sight hound types, say mix some grey, saluki and just a smidge of collie or the like and basically you could breed to a certain look, say tri coloured and slightly feathered and in a couple of generations would have a line throwing a consistent type but would it really be new and would any ability be based on the later breeding of just those who went before and how consistent would ability really be?

Interesting though.

Ohhhh my poor head...... Good post mate

[Lee H 1982 60]

The way me and the lads around me have done it is only breed the real good dogs to the other real good ones and when one of the lads get or knows of a good half cross put it back in to the breeding of course no guarantee you will get a good one just a greater percent you could Iam no breeder just my thoughts on the subject

[bird 9,898]

once you get past a first cross what constitutes a mongrel ?

 

prob with a 1x what ever 2 breeds you use, norm its a conform litter in looks but can differ in temps fair bit

[Astanley 11,568]

I don't think new breeds should be deliberately created , they are usually money or vanity driven projects that tend to replicate , with slight variations , whats already there . Breed dogs that are good at their jobs long enough and the ideal true breeding type will emerge .