Force Fetch Training Coming Up

[Mickey Finn 3,016]

Damn Lurcher! He had it made in the shade. Retrieves were good, and rabbits were brought back alive.

 

Today, he hunted up and chased a rabbit which escaped through a fence. Well done, I gave him praise and he did his little pleasure sprint. 20 mins later he finds another and catches it. Promptly making off with it, and killing it. He ignored my fetch command, and looked like he was preparing to eat the rabbit. (this is not allowed!) I blew his recall on the whistle, and here he comes straight to me. Without the rabbit. Had to praise the recall especially in light of the temptation to disregard.

 

So, back to the training table he goes. Problem is I didn't FF him when he was younger because he seemed immature, and a little on the soft side to boot. Now, he's over 2yrs old and may hold a grudge if I put too much pressure on him. It's going to be interesting to see how well this thing plays out.

 

Thanks for reading my vent,

Edited July 21, 2013 by Mickey Finn

[yeti 84]

No how u feel pal mine will not retrive for love or money. He will fetch a rabbit back to about ten feet or so ! And that's it tryed everything some dogs will just not retrive simple

[nottzhunter08 898]

Most good retreiving dogs retreive naturally

[paulus 26]

perhaps he was feeling a tad peckish joking aside the first rabbit my young dog caught on the lamp he promptly ate, despite the fact he would retrieve anything with ease, i just ignored it and carried on, the next one he caught he retrieved textbook perfect, my old dog will retrieve shot pigeons all day long, however if you don't watch him he will still munch the odd one given chance, its fine line between work and food but experience will prevail. loosing you rag will not help

[Phil Lloyd 10,738]

The 'trained retrieve',..for a running dog composite,.requires a different approach, with regards to achieving success, than when schooling a bird dog...

 

 

All the best, Phil.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Phil Lloyd

[skycat 6,173]

I don't think you're wrong at all Phil.

 

Lurchers and forced training just don't go well together. The use of force, pain or anything negative in what should be a satisfying and fulfilling action is completely wrong on every level in my opinion.

 

Look at it this way: the lurcher (or any dog for that matter but particularly the lurcher which both catches and retrieves and is in general much more sensitive and 'wild' than a gun dog) is in a certain zone when it is hunting, catching, killing: modern trainers call it 'prey drive'. The single biggest cause of not retrieving the catch is that the owner shuts the dog down when it comes back to him, thereby ending the pleasure the dog feels whilst it is in that zone.

 

Dogs that see their owners as that 'shut down' catalyst will never be happy to bring back what they have caught as retrieving means and end to pleasure. If the dog can remain in that zone, that drive, when they return to their owner with their catch, the dog will always be happy to do so.

 

I know that force training involves conditioning the dog to understand that holding the object in its mouth means a release from pain, but think about it! Dog catches rabbit, holds it in its jaws, but hang on there, now there's a horrible gulf between how the dog was feeling when it ran to catch that rabbit: in that zone, the greatest pleasure a hunting dog can feel, it is free from constraint, there is no owner giving commands or causing pain. But the force trained dog, once it has that rabbit in its mouth, immediately becomes aware of the consequences of letting go of that rabbit ... or does it?

 

I think it is much more likely that the dog simply resists bringing back that rabbit because it doesn't want that pleasure (of being in prey drive) to stop. Force training involves pinching the dog's ear or toe, or twisting a prong collar on the dog's neck until it opens its mouth to yelp out in pain. The trainer then immediately shoves dowel, dummy or whatever into the dog's mouth and stops the pain: all in a second. The idea being that the dog associates having something in its mouth as a relief from the pain: seriously, it beggars belief that anyone can still be living in such a dark age of misunderstanding of how a dog's mind works!

 

I'm not saying that this type of training doesn't work in very experienced and skilled hands, but it stamps on every spontaneous, pleasurable and fulfilling instinct in the animal, and in an area as sensitive as the retrieve of a live animal which that dog has caught itself, even worse ... it stamps out the pleasure that a dog can feel in bringing that catch back to an equally overjoyed owner. An absence of pain doesn't necessarily equal a happy dog: it is more likely to equal a slave which does what it has to do to avoid being hurt: hardly the basis for a good working relationship in the field. Fine if you want a robot, a flat-lined creature to obey your every command, but what is the point of having a living animal with which to share your hunting if you want it to behave in a robotic way.

 

A few years ago I watched a video of a forced trained Airedale putting up birds on a prairie. The dog was 'flat', hardly daring to go ahead without specific commands all the time: go right, go left, wait etc. Whilst control is important, there are better ways of training a dog, any dog, in my opinion. One of the best things for me is having a lurcher come back to me at a gallop carrying a rabbit: tail up, wagging, eyes shining, dancing at my feet: the dog is still in 'drive' at that moment, because it has never known anything other than praise and enthusiasm when it has something in its mouth. Rant over!

[bird 9,969]

 

Damn Lurcher! He had it made in the shade. Retrieves were good, and rabbits were brought back alive.

 

Today, he hunted up and chased a rabbit which escaped through a fence. Well done, I gave him praise and he did his little pleasure sprint. 20 mins later he finds another and catches it. Promptly making off with it, and killing it. He ignored my fetch command, and looked like he was preparing to eat the rabbit. (this is not allowed!) I blew his recall on the whistle, and here he comes straight to me. Without the rabbit. Had to praise the recall especially in light of the temptation to disregard.

 

So, back to the training table he goes. Problem is I didn't FF him when he was younger because he seemed immature, and a little on the soft side to boot. Now, he's over 2yrs old and may hold a grudge if I put too much pressure on him. It's going to be interesting to see how well this thing plays out.

 

Thanks for reading my vent,

 

The 'trained retrieve',..for a running dog composite,.requires a different approach, with regards to achieving success, than when schooling a bird dog...

 

Personaly,...I would eschew the usage of any persuasive training and instead,..concentrate on that most important and necessary attribute,...the recall...

 

Get that right,.and you will have your fetch....feck up on the training table,.. and you'll have feck all...

 

Just an opinion,.and I could well be wrong..

 

All the best, Phil.

 

true , differnt ball game with lurcher as to gundog.The main 2 differnt things are, 1st its not natural in a running dog, what is,is to chase+ kill. 2nd is temp, i would most if not all lurcher xs, have quite a (sensitve) temp as compare to a gudog type breed. And the bringing back live game, can be where lot of people somtimes hit a brickwall, because if you try to make them they will as above, just stop or kill the rabbit and leave it there. with these type of dogs (lurchers+longdogs) its a kid gloves job. All my lurchers( colliexs,bullxs,bitsas) have brought back, and most alive . Prob the worst was my bitsa bitch , she would bring only 1/2 way back and that was it. And she was taught the same way as my other dogs, but all dogs are differnt.My pup Buck 1x gsd xgrey is very good as caught from 60yds and will come right to you with the rabbit, and not done much training really with him, but his recall is 100% .

Bryn 1x collie x grey

 

 

 

 

[skycat 6,173]

Ray: I hate to disagree, but retrieving is 'natural' for any dog: they all have the same pack instinct, the same blueprint to bring food back to the den or pack. Sure, gun dogs have been bred for hundreds of years for that trait, so it is virtually impossible to destroy that in such breeds, but virtually very breed in the world has an inbuilt desire to carry its catch somewhere, even Salukis, who without training or a decent bond with their owners are more likely to carry their catch off and bury it somewhere the owner can't find it .. seen that happen often enough! With lurchers and sighthounds it is even more important to establish that bond of trust

[paulus 26]

i don't see much difference between gundogs and lurchers when it comes to actual retrieving, the only significant difference being the cast off and presentation of the retrieved quarry. some dogs are naturally more switched on to retrieving than others, aside from that then the rest is purely training and experience, the level you decide to train to will depend on the situation and the owners ability. of my three dogs all will retrieve to hand, the old bitch will always kill rabbits prior to the retrieve but the other two will retrieve live to hand sometimes both will retrieve the same rabbit together, a double retrieve i have had a couple of dogs that would not retrieve no matter what i tried, one would kill and drop the other was possessive. both these dogs i had as adults and i believe this behavior was instigated by previous owners .

[baw 4,360]

Well I've learned something from this thread..... I never knew teaching retrieve was so difficult

[bird 9,969]

Ray: I hate to disagree, but retrieving is 'natural' for any dog: they all have the same pack instinct, the same blueprint to bring food back to the den or pack. Sure, gun dogs have been bred for hundreds of years for that trait, so it is virtually impossible to destroy that in such breeds, but virtually very breed in the world has an inbuilt desire to carry its catch somewhere, even Salukis, who without training or a decent bond with their owners are more likely to carry their catch off and bury it somewhere the owner can't find it .. seen that happen often enough! With lurchers and sighthounds it is even more important to establish that bond of trust

 

yeh , just saying instinct in gundog breeds is stronger even as pups than most lurcher+ running dog types. Yeh most will have instinct to carry game back to where they live+ eat it lol. You know your self lurcher pups have strong desire to( run) around and bite things even from 8 weekd old, where as you look at other pups of differnt breeds its more of a rough+tumble thing , they dont seem to want run around as much.Iseen a litter of lurcher to lurcher pups lot grey +whippet, with bit of saluki in there, they were about 7 weeks old, they were running around the garden like nutters lol, bloody hell they could more. Prob as iam used to 1xs which looked they not moving , well Buck like that .You right you got to really (Bond) with lurcher+longdog types to get the best out of them

[skycat 6,173]

Article on force training: purely for those who wonder how it is done. Just about everything in this article makes me mad: hobbling the dog so it can't paw at the table for one.

Further on in the article it says: because of the dog's desire to get rid of the object (it is carrying) it will soon be looking up at you to take it: this is when 'teaching' the dog to hold until it is commanded to give up the object, but the words which really boil my p*ss are "because of the dog's desire to get rid of the object".

If I can't get a dog to retrieve happily, I'd sooner not keep a dog at all. Another rant over!

 

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rjpart1.html

[paulsmithy83 567]

 

 

Damn Lurcher! He had it made in the shade. Retrieves were good, and rabbits were brought back alive.

 

Today, he hunted up and chased a rabbit which escaped through a fence. Well done, I gave him praise and he did his little pleasure sprint. 20 mins later he finds another and catches it. Promptly making off with it, and killing it. He ignored my fetch command, and looked like he was preparing to eat the rabbit. (this is not allowed!) I blew his recall on the whistle, and here he comes straight to me. Without the rabbit. Had to praise the recall especially in light of the temptation to disregard.

 

So, back to the training table he goes. Problem is I didn't FF him when he was younger because he seemed immature, and a little on the soft side to boot. Now, he's over 2yrs old and may hold a grudge if I put too much pressure on him. It's going to be interesting to see how well this thing plays out.

 

Thanks for reading my vent,

The 'trained retrieve',..for a running dog composite,.requires a different approach, with regards to achieving success, than when schooling a bird dog...

 

Personaly,...I would eschew the usage of any persuasive training and instead,..concentrate on that most important and necessary attribute,...the recall...

 

Get that right,.and you will have your fetch....feck up on the training table,.. and you'll have feck all...

 

Just an opinion,.and I could well be wrong..

 

All the best, Phil.

Spot on always said it recall and retrieve come hand in hand . I have never owned a dog that wouldn't retrieve straight to hand because before its ever had the chance to catch anything I've installed that recall strong in the heads. One faint whistle and the dogs come sprinting back. Same when start hunting i keep drilling it in. Surprise all mine have natural retrieved with no actual retrieve training must be a sign surely lol

[Mickey Finn 3,016]

 

Damn Lurcher! He had it made in the shade. Retrieves were good, and rabbits were brought back alive.

 

Today, he hunted up and chased a rabbit which escaped through a fence. Well done, I gave him praise and he did his little pleasure sprint. 20 mins later he finds another and catches it. Promptly making off with it, and killing it. He ignored my fetch command, and looked like he was preparing to eat the rabbit. (this is not allowed!) I blew his recall on the whistle, and here he comes straight to me. Without the rabbit. Had to praise the recall especially in light of the temptation to disregard.

 

So, back to the training table he goes. Problem is I didn't FF him when he was younger because he seemed immature, and a little on the soft side to boot. Now, he's over 2yrs old and may hold a grudge if I put too much pressure on him. It's going to be interesting to see how well this thing plays out.

 

Thanks for reading my vent,

 

The 'trained retrieve',..for a running dog composite,.requires a different approach, with regards to achieving success, than when schooling a bird dog...

 

Personaly,...I would eschew the usage of any persuasive training and instead,..concentrate on that most important and necessary attribute,...the recall...

 

Get that right,.and you will have your fetch....feck up on the training table,.. and you'll have feck all...

 

Just an opinion,.and I could well be wrong..

 

All the best, Phil.

 

 

 

That's what concerns me.

[Mickey Finn 3,016]

Article on force training: purely for those who wonder how it is done. Just about everything in this article makes me mad: hobbling the dog so it can't paw at the table for one.

Further on in the article it says: because of the dog's desire to get rid of the object (it is carrying) it will soon be looking up at you to take it: this is when 'teaching' the dog to hold until it is commanded to give up the object, but the words which really boil my p*ss are "because of the dog's desire to get rid of the object".

If I can't get a dog to retrieve happily, I'd sooner not keep a dog at all. Another rant over!

 

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rjpart1.html

Yeah, that's about how we do it. In FFs defense it has other benefits as well. Dominance for example is settled once and for all as you pretty much take ownership of the dogs mouth. Assuming he doesn't take ownership of a few of your fingers that is. lol

 

Just kidding skycat.