Shooting Rights Issue

[kruby01 114]

I came into a bit of a problem yesterday. I've just got myself an absolute dream permission. It's not been shot for over 18 years and is literally crawling with rabbits, fox, pigeon, partridge, squirrels and a few hares. I've been trying to get it for nearly a year and finally got it for use with air rifle, shotgun and i can list it on my fac when i apply, they also said i can use the hawk when i get it and its with only one restriction (not to shoot a shotgun near the pig pen). As you can see its land I am over the moon to have.

 

I turned up yesterday just to have a look around and thought I'd take the shotgun in case. I went in jeans and a bright blue t-shirt so not at all camo. Walked past the pig pen and saw 8 rabbits but left them be to respect the only condition. Walked another 50 yards and spotted two more both in range and fired at the first, instant kill. The second sat up panicking so I reloaded the single barrel quickly and as I mounted the gun it ran so I took a running shot but I will take blame it was rushed and I missed but still a safe shot.

 

I then heard an engine and a dog barking and a snotty little teenager came driving over in his cart with a German Shepard and stopped next to me without saying anything so I just kind of looked at him for a minute then said what? He said what are you doing you can't shoot here, the land owner doesn't own the shooting rights we do (the pheasant pens next door) so I thought obviously I don't know if that's true so I apologised reluctantly and walked off to see the land owner who told me he is sure that he owns all the rights to the field and has had problems with the gamekeepers before just driving over his land however no one has ever fired a gun on his land in 18 years of him living there.

 

I am still unsure as to who owns the shooting rights and I'm not sure how to find out but a quick google search is telling me that even if they do own the shooting rights then the landowner is still within his right to employ me to control pest species on his land. I do shoot game but I have plenty of land and I'm quite happy to use that permission to just shoot rabbits and the foxes which are causing him a big problem.

 

I am going to phone BASC on Monday but I was just wondering what your views are?

Thanks

Billy

[paulus 26]

I came into a bit of a problem yesterday. I've just got myself an absolute dream permission. It's not been shot for over 18 years and is literally crawling with rabbits, fox, pigeon, partridge, squirrels and a few hares. I've been trying to get it for nearly a year and finally got it for use with air rifle, shotgun and i can list it on my fac when i apply, they also said i can use the hawk when i get it and its with only one restriction (not to shoot a shotgun near the pig pen). As you can see its land I am over the moon to have.

 

I turned up yesterday just to have a look around and thought I'd take the shotgun in case. I went in jeans and a bright blue t-shirt so not at all camo. Walked past the pig pen and saw 8 rabbits but left them be to respect the only condition. Walked another 50 yards and spotted two more both in range and fired at the first, instant kill. The second sat up panicking so I reloaded the single barrel quickly and as I mounted the gun it ran so I took a running shot but I will take blame it was rushed and I missed but still a safe shot.

 

I then heard an engine and a dog barking and a snotty little teenager came driving over in his cart with a German Shepard and stopped next to me without saying anything so I just kind of looked at him for a minute then said what? He said what are you doing you can't shoot here, the land owner doesn't own the shooting rights we do (the pheasant pens next door) so I thought obviously I don't know if that's true so I apologised reluctantly and walked off to see the land owner who told me he is sure that he owns all the rights to the field and has had problems with the gamekeepers before just driving over his land however no one has ever fired a gun on his land in 18 years of him living there.

 

I am still unsure as to who owns the shooting rights and I'm not sure how to find out but a quick google search is telling me that even if they do own the shooting rights then the landowner is still within his right to employ me to control pest species on his land. I do shoot game but I have plenty of land and I'm quite happy to use that permission to just shoot rabbits and the foxes which are causing him a big problem.

 

I am going to phone BASC on Monday but I was just wondering what your views are?

Thanks

Billy

ask the landowner to speak to the shoot captain and see his contract for the sporting rights, i had the same years ago, the bloke that owned the land lived in america and had done for 25 years or more, i had keepers telling me it belonged to the shoot, however a word to the shoot captain from the land owner cleared it up, turned out the captain believed that they owned the rights as nobody had told them different,

[SportingShooter 0]

If the shoot genuinely own the shooting rights to the land i.e. have paid money and signed a contract then there is very little you can do about the shooting of game and deer species on the land as you will contravene a legal document and ultimately be poaching.

 

However, the owner of the land is (still) legally obliged to control rabbits and is within his own right to control pests or an agent on his behalf. That relates to vermin only, rather than any game or kept species.

[kruby01 114]

That's what I was thinking so it seems its still perfectly legal for me to shoot rabbit, pigeon and fox?

[Alsone 789]

If the shoot genuinely own the shooting rights to the land i.e. have paid money and signed a contract then there is very little you can do about the shooting of game and deer species on the land as you will contravene a legal document and ultimately be poaching.

 

However, the owner of the land is (still) legally obliged to control rabbits and is within his own right to control pests or an agent on his behalf. That relates to vermin only, rather than any game or kept species.

 

Would he be poaching though?

 

He'd have permission of the land owner. Surely the position here would be most likely that the landowner would be in breach of contract to the shoot captain for exclusivety but that would be a civil matter between the landowner and the shoot captain. However, I'm not sure he'd be poaching as its the landowner who can grant permission to shoot over his land surely.

 

Surely what he's done is not transfer the legal right to the shooting interests but merely granted a permission to shoot (most likely with exclusivety) unless the contract says otherwise but I would have thought it highly unlikely that you'd give a legal interest in your land away, otherwise you'd no longer have any control over who shot there now or at anytime in the future and any sale of the land would presumably be subject to an easment to allow the pheasant shooters to shoot, which would in turn potentially devalue the land. I'd have thought its more likely you'd grant a right shoot over your land (with or without exclusivety) in the form of a permission, rather than transfer the actual rights to shoot ie an easment.

 

Either way, to the OP, don't push the point. Don't shoot on the land until you can get all of this straightened out as its not worth the risk of being reported and potentially being charged as an armed tresspasser (far worse than poaching) if it turns out you don't have permission.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Alsone

[kruby01 114]

But the current land owner has owned it for 18 years and he has never sold the rights and in 18 years the shoot has never fired a gun on his land. The only thing I can think is that maybe they where sold by the previous owner but then the new owner has never been told

[paulus 26]

But the current land owner has owned it for 18 years and he has never sold the rights and in 18 years the shoot has never fired a gun on his land. The only thing I can think is that maybe they where sold by the previous owner but then the new owner has never been told

get the owner to phone or meet the shoot and sort it out

[SportingShooter 0]

 

If the shoot genuinely own the shooting rights to the land i.e. have paid money and signed a contract then there is very little you can do about the shooting of game and deer species on the land as you will contravene a legal document and ultimately be poaching.

 

However, the owner of the land is (still) legally obliged to control rabbits and is within his own right to control pests or an agent on his behalf. That relates to vermin only, rather than any game or kept species.

 

Would he be poaching though?

 

He'd have permission of the land owner. Surely the position here would be most likely that the landowner would be in breach of contract to the shoot captain for exclusivety but that would be a civil matter between the landowner and the shoot captain. However, I'm not sure he'd be poaching as its the landowner who can grant permission to shoot over his land surely.

 

Surely what he's done is not transfer the legal right to the shooting interests but merely granted a permission to shoot (most likely with exclusivety) unless the contract says otherwise but I would have thought it highly unlikely that you'd give a legal interest in your land away, otherwise you'd no longer have any control over who shot there now or at anytime in the future and any sale of the land would presumably be subject to an easment to allow the pheasant shooters to shoot, which would in turn potentially devalue the land. I'd have thought its more likely you'd grant a right shoot over your land (with or without exclusivety) in the form of a permission, rather than transfer the actual rights to shoot ie an easment.

 

Either way, to the OP, don't push the point. Don't shoot on the land until you can get all of this straightened out as its not worth the risk of being reported and potentially being charged as an armed tresspasser (far worse than poaching) if it turns out you don't have permission.

 

 

It depends on the circumstances and what has or has not been granted or sold.

 

Ultimately, if the landowner is no longer the owner of the shooting rights, which can be sold as an entirely separate entity I would argue that it amounts to poaching,

 

If it is an informal or formal agreement that permission to shoot on the land has been granted, then agreed, it would be a civil matter but ultimately the landowner or permisser would probably sort out.

 

There are examples of shooting rights over land that aren't owned by the landowner, one example I know of where the land was sold. The new land owner was convicted of poaching, after not realising the shooting rights were not included in the sale.

 

I would doubt that is the case here as you say, more likely just permission but the OP needs to know either way,

[kruby01 114]

But even if it is the case that the rights where completely sold. Surely the land owner is able to control pest species on his land through me just not game

[SportingShooter 0]

Pests are entirely in the occupier's remit Kruby you're right,

 

An exemption certainly exists in law for specifically Rabbits that they are required to be controlled by law, other pest species are able to be controlled by the occupier to prevent loss to livestock, crops etc.

 

Ultimately, I would ask the occupier to speak to the shoot, find out where their permission originates from and if he is still the owner of the shooting rights, he can decide whether to renew that permission.

 

Hopefully it won't be a complicated situation with the ownership of shooting rights coming into the equation as well

[bouncer 51]

I have a similar problem and I read that the land owner can have someone else to control vermin if the people that own the shooting rights is not doing their job.but where I go their is hardly any rabbits or foxes so the land owner doesn't need to employ anyone else.i think it would take a lot for anyone to prove that the people with the shooting rights are not doing the job.

Edited July 14, 2013 by bouncer

[Alsone 789]

Just been looking at the BASC website and their shooting rights permission form also gives away the rights to pest control in its standard un altered format including rabbits, fox everything!:

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/EA202D35-826B-477F-93D7CB0E17E75A28

 

It looks like you really need to see a copy of the agreement.

 

That's 2 BASC documents I don't agree with - the other is the land check permission form here: http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/topic/292151-land-check-permission-form/

 

Which seems to miss out permission to bring anyone else along.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Alsone

[CharlieT 32]

Just been looking at the BASC website and their shooting rights permission form also gives away the rights to pest control in its standard un altered format including rabbits, fox everything!:

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/EA202D35-826B-477F-93D7CB0E17E75A28

 

It looks like you really need to see a copy of the agreement.

 

That's 2 BASC documents I don't agree with - the other is the land check permission form here: http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/topic/292151-land-check-permission-form/

 

Which seems to miss out permission to bring anyone else along.

 

Do not confuse ownership of shooting rights with "permission to shoot" or indeed a lease of the shooting rights. They are completely different things and in this instance it would appear that, in the OP's case, there seems to be some confusion as to whom owns the shooting rights.

 

The landowner would know as the deeds to the farm would contain the detail.

[Matt 160]

That's what I was thinking so it seems its still perfectly legal for me to shoot rabbit, pigeon and fox?

 

No, it's rabbits and hares only.

 

Ground Game Act 1881.

[The one 8,513]

Same here one permission has a gamekeeper and he kicked off when he saw me ,land owner said if you did your job i wouldn't need him