Friend Using My Firearm.......

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

My friend who I lamp with is thinking of applying for his FAC and joined BASC he emailed them to ask a few questions and they phoned him back.

 

He wanted to know if he could use my .22lr under my supervision on my permission, to gain experience. The chap who phoned him back said he could if I owned the land, but not if it was owned by someone else. He said he used to be a chief firearms officer and was really helpful.

 

Anyone any info to add?

 

Cheers...

[lapin2008 1,587]

I think its 'owned the land or have lawful authority to shoot over it' not sure about having to own the land that doesnt seem right to me

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

I thought it sounded odd. Maybe he misheard him. I'm a new fac holder and unsure. Might give the fao a ring tomorrow.

[stubby 175]

I think you'll find its ok if the land owner has given permission to your friend to shoot your rifle

[Alsone 789]

I'm pretty sure the FEO is correct.

 

You can only shoot under supervision under someone else's certificate if they are also the occupier of the land. Having permission isn't enough.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Alsone

[SportingShooter 0]

This is a contentious issue as there are two schools of thought dependant on who you listen to.

 

The Firearms Acts have what is known as the "Estate Condition" whereby someone over the age of 17 can borrow a rifle from the "occupier" of private land or their "servant i.e. gamekeeper employed by them" and use it on that land in the rifle owner's company and comply with the conditions on their FAC.

 

That is as it stands in Law and as such is pretty black and white. However...in the Home Office Guidance to the Police on firearms licensing, it states that the "occupier" should be defined as it is in S.27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 where it defines the occupier as someone who "has lawful authority to hunt, shoot or fish".

 

Now if the latter is to be used, then that opens it up to anyone who has permission to shoot on the land.

 

I have personal knowledge of this condition's barbarity with my own licensing department threatening to take my FAC from me due to letting a colleague of mine use my .22 for Rabbits. Threatened was about the right word to describe so I took legal advice, not from BASC, and sent the Chief Constable a letter detailing the above and how obscure the guidance was depending on who you spoke to and which county you happened to be in. They changed their advice to people to include the above but the Chief Constable's word is not law so until a test case appears in court then it will remain a grey area, much like 70% of firearms law in the UK.

 

SS

[dadioles 68]

You are quite correct, there are two versions of what is defined as "occupier" and as things stand it is up to the Chief Constable in your area to apply whichever definition they prefer.

 

Until a case is brought in court, that is the what we have to deal with. I think it would be a pretty good defence, however, that the HO Guidance should be applied. Without deep pockets you do not want to be the test case!

[drakeshead gunner 26]

I have very recently been granted my FAC and when I had my interview the officer asked if I'd had any experience shooting, I thought this was a trick question and answered no because my self and my friend who already has his cert were not sure on the law. His response was that I could without a certificate use his rifle on land he has permission to shoot over. This is in East Yorkshire but as stated above Its who you speak to and if you want to risk an argument.

[CharlieT 32]

I would suggest you heed BASC's advice.

 

The latest view of ACPO can be found in the minutes of their March meeting and I quote.............

 

17. SECTION 11(5) EXEMPTION

17.1 Helen Rees asked for some concensus on the definition of “Occupier” for the purposes

of S11(5) of the Firearms Act. BASC, NGO and Gamekeepers Association interpret it to

mean the individual has a right to shoot which means they effecitvely have permission

from the landowner. Helen’s view on 11(5) is that a person can benefit from non

exemption if they have a shooting right (a binding contract with the landowner).

17.2 Graham Wididcome to address this in the Guidance in the near future. Ministers are

looking as changing the terminology of “occupier”.

17.3 Barry Collacott concluded by reading a quote with regards to the definition of “occupier”

from the BASC website “Issues arising from S11(5). No definition of occupier in the

Firearms Act but generally means someone with an interest in the land that is

enforceable at law”.

[dadioles 68]

 

I would suggest you heed BASC's advice.

 

The latest view of ACPO can be found in the minutes of their March meeting and I quote.............

 

17. SECTION 11(5) EXEMPTION

17.1 Helen Rees asked for some concensus on the definition of “Occupier” for the purposes

of S11(5) of the Firearms Act. BASC, NGO and Gamekeepers Association interpret it to

mean the individual has a right to shoot which means they effecitvely have permission

from the landowner. Helen’s view on 11(5) is that a person can benefit from non

exemption if they have a shooting right (a binding contract with the landowner).

17.2 Graham Wididcome to address this in the Guidance in the near future. Ministers are

looking as changing the terminology of “occupier”.

17.3 Barry Collacott concluded by reading a quote with regards to the definition of “occupier”

from the BASC website “Issues arising from S11(5). No definition of occupier in the

Firearms Act but generally means someone with an interest in the land that is

enforceable at law”.

 

Clear as mud....

[SportingShooter 0]

Interesting reading, the minutes of that meeting Charlie, well worth a Google folks

 

I know Helen Rees and she is quite sensible, willing to take advice etc so hopefully being represented by BASC, the BSSC and the NGO on this committee will be useful.