RussBoy 77 Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 How do you train a young dog that will chase whatever you throw but when up at it just decides to leave it and not pick up to bring back? This is a saluki based dog I am talking about Quote Link to post
gnipper 6,467 Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 How do you train a young dog that will chase whatever you throw but when up at it just decides to leave it and not pick up to bring back? This is a saluki based dog I am talking about Tie a long line to the things you thrown then you can give them a twitch to encourage the pick up? Quote Link to post
lurchers4life 103 Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Ive got a pup here now that wont pick up things I chuck but if I chuxk a treat hel retreive it had the same problem with his mum and shes a decent retriever Quote Link to post
sandymere 8,263 Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) My dogs would retreive saucepans, spark plugs, empty cartridges, anything. But i used to be fanatical about training, now my current dogs bring back bunnies, more then enough for me................................. Fun retreiving works for many dogs, but i have seen many more get a perfect retreive with a forced retreive.................... Force traing works for those that have stopped etc if done properly stage by stage. can't remember who wrote this but videos are aplenty on utube. STEP ONE: Training the dog to accept and hold the dumbbell on "Fetch" and to release it on "Give." This is a very important preparatory step that allows the dog to become comfortable with the dumbbell before any force is applied. The "hell week" method skips this step and the next one, and jumps right into the "force" part of the training. It is extremely important that you have adequate physical control over the dog, even in the early steps. He should wear his choke- style training collar and the standard six-foot training lead. Start out with sitting him at heel. Kneel down beside him, toss the lead over your shoulders and anchor it with your right foot. In that position, you have complete physical control. Use this position for all of your step one training. The purpose of step one is to allow your dog to become comfortable with the dumbbell. However, this does not mean that he should think it is a toy. Playfulness is counter-productive in force-breaking prior to step five. In step one, the proper attitude for the dog towards the dumbbell is "indifferent acceptance." To achieve this, you should get your dog over any fear or enthusiasm he may have initially towards the dumbbell. He should be bored by it. Until he is really bored by it, serious work in step one cannot begin. Most trainers will take great pains to get their dogs over any fear they may have, but diluting enthusiasm is a different matter. Many novice trainers secretly like it when their dogs show great interest in the dumbbell. One of my students was like this. I showed him a movie of the entire force-breaking technique, and then demonstrated step one with a dog I was training at the time. He came back three days later and told me that he had completely force-broken his dog in only two days. I knew that the process couldn't be that fast, and that in all likelihood the dog was still playing with the dumbbell--had never been bored enough with it to even start. The owner became quite proud of his "record" time, and the more I tried to tell him that his dog was not force-broken, the more insistent he became that he was. Later, when the dog's field performance clearly showed that I was right, the man gave up training rather than admit that he hadn't set a record. Too bad, for he had a potentially good dog. Until your dog is completely bored with the dumbbell, he is not ready for serious work in step one. Kneel beside him, as described above, and show him the dumbbell. Only let him smell it until he reaches a state of boredom--no fear, no enthusiasm. Now, open his mouth with your left hand, say "fetch," and insert the dumbbell. Then, hold his chin with your right hand, so he cannot spit it out. Praise him lavishly. After a few seconds, say "give" and remove the dumbbell from his mouth. Again, praise him lavishly. He is to be praised for holding and for releasing on command. I once knew a trainer who only praised his dog for holding, and the dog later became quite "sticky"--refused to release on command. I have often wondered how many stickiness problems stem from failing to praise for releasing in the early steps of force-breaking. Repeat this several times in each session. If the dog struggles to get rid of the dumbbell, fine. Just stay calm and retain enough physical control so that he must hold it until you say "give" each time. Praise continuously, even when he is really fighting you. The more you praise when your dog is doing what he is supposed to be doing -- even under duress -- the better he will understand what it is you want. Eventually, he will settle down and hold the dumbbell without a struggle. When he does, remove your right hand from under his chin. If he spits it out, say "no fetch!" rather severely as you put it back. If he doesn't spit it out, wait long enough and he will. At this stage, you want him to try to get rid of it so you can make some good corrections. This is the only way he will learn what it is you want. If he doesn't try to spit it out in the early sessions, he probably wasn't sufficiently bored with the dumbbell when you started. After a few corrections for dropping the dumbbell, your dog will start holding it reasonably well--at least for a few seconds. Wait until he will hold it a minute or so without requiring corrections before you move on to step two. STEP TWO: Training the dog to carry the dumbbell at heel and while being called. When your dog has learned to hold for a reasonable period of time without a struggle, it is time to teach him to carry. Step two is part of the gentle build-up in this technique. Start out as in step one, and place the dumbbell in his mouth as you say "fetch." Then, stand up, say "heel" and start walking. Ninety-nine dogs out of one hundred will spit the dumbbell out before they take the first step. That is really what you want-- so you can get in a correction. If your dog spits it out this way, say "no! Fetch!" and replace the dumbbell in his mouth. Do this every time he drops it--and then praise him when he carries it until you're sick of hearing yourself. This combination of correction and praise will teach your retriever what it is you really want him to do. Too often, the praise is omitted, and the training takes longer. When your retriever will heel with the dumbbell for a reasonable time, try what obedience trainers call "the recall" with the dumbbell in the dog's mouth. Leave him in a sit-stay with the dumbbell, walk to the end of the six-foot lead (yes, he should still be on lead for all his force-breaking) and call him to you. Even if he will heel with the dumbbell forever, he will probably spit it out before he starts toward you. Again, that is good, just what you wanted him to do, so you can get in a good correction. Charge towards him as soon as he drops it, saying the old reliable "no! fetch!" and put it back in his mouth. Then, call him again. After a few of these he will understand what it is that you are after. Next, put him on a long rope (for control) and lengthen the distance he has to carry the dumbbell as he comes to you. You should repeat your step one training in each session of step two--fetch, give, fetch, give. . . several times. If you do this, you will notice that your dog will start opening his own mouth when you say "fetch", at least some of the time. When he does, it is a good sign that he is ready for step three, which is the real beginning of force-breaking. STEP THREE: Training the dog to open his own mouth to accept the dumbbell. For the first time, you will have to apply force in this step, you have led the dog through what you wanted and reinforced it with copious praise and corrections. Your dog has learned rather painlessly to hold and carry the dumbbell on the command "fetch" and to release it on "give." Now he will be trained to open his own mouth to accept the dumbbell. Until this time, you have gently pried it open for him. His part has been passive. To get your dog to open his mouth requires some force. The trainer must do something to the dog that induces him to open his mouth, and this will typically involve a small amount of pain. There are several forms of force from which to choose. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. Each also has its staunch advocates, many of whom will swear that true force-breaking can only be done with this or that specific type of force. Not true; they all work. Here is a rundown on them: 1. The Lip Pinch: The dog's upper lip is pinched against the canine teeth--sharply enough to cause a little pain. This will induce the dog to open his mouth. And it is a continuation of the technique used in Step One. (In Step One, no pain was induced as the mouth was opened, but it is in Step Three.) This technique gives good control over the dog's head and muzzle, but it does block his view of the dumbbell. I must admit that this is my personal choice of force methods. 2. The Choke: The choke collar is positioned high on the dog's neck--right behind his ears. When it is pulled up sharply, the dog will open his mouth. This gives good control over the dog's head and adequate control over his muzzle. It does not block the dog's view of the dumbbell. 3. The Paw Squeeze: This is the favorite technique of the bird dog trainer. One of the dog's front paws is squeezed to induce him to open his mouth. It works, but it gives poor control of the head and muzzle. To compensate, most bird dog trainers cinch their dogs up tightly to a fence post or to a ring fastened to a wall. 4. The Ear Pinch: This is the technique typically associated with "hell week." The dog's ear--normally the little flap on the back--is pinched between the thumb and index finger nails to get the dog to open his mouth. It gives poor control over the head and muzzle. It has another problem when not used with "hell week." It is not very effective until the dog's ear has been "sensitized" by repeated pinching--the bleeding ear syndrome. Frankly, with the slow, gentle approach advocated in this article, the dog's ear will not be pinched often enough for this technique to become effective. Choose your force technique and stick with it. In starting Step Three, have the dog sit at heel and kneel down beside him as in Step One. Hold the dumbbell right in front of his mouth and say "fetch." If he opens his own mouth--as he well may--simply insert the dumbbell and praise him. Repeat this several times. Whenever he fails to open his own mouth, apply force, and insert the dumbbell--and then praise him. Praise is especially important when you have to apply force, so don't let yourself become upset that he failed to open his mouth. If you do, you will omit the praise after the force. Continue to do this until force just isn't necessary. It won't take long with a dog that has been through the preparations in Steps One and Two. Very little force will be required to induce the dog to open his own mouth when you say "fetch." Even so, he will resent the force that is applied. If he makes any connection between this and his regular field training, he will refuse to retrieve--at least until he is over the resentment. Continue the carrying drills of Step Two throughout Step Three training. This not only gives your dog something to do that he is comfortable with, but it is also important for his overall force-breaking that he remain accustomed to carrying the dumbbell. STEP FOUR: Training the dog to reach for and eventually pick up the dumbbell. Once it is no longer necessary to apply force to get the dog to open his own mouth, it is time to teach him to reach for the dumbbell. Hold the dumbbell immediately in front of his mouth--an inch or two away at most. Say "fetch" and he should open his own mouth at this stage. When he does, simply push his head with your left hand onto the dumbbell. Praise him more lavishly than before for this. After a few repetitions, he should start moving without your assistance to grab the dumbbell. When he does, you will know that he now understands that you expect him to take a more active role in getting the dumbbell into his mouth. Once you are sure he understands this, you may start applying force whenever he fails to reach the inch or so it takes to get the dumbbell. After a few times, he will reach that distance every time--without force. Gradually lengthen the distance he is required to reach for the dumbbell, applying force only when he refuses. Two or three inches, seven or eight inches, a foot, and so on, until you are placing the dumbbell on the ground in front of the dog. Many dogs seem to have a real problem at this stage. Some will even pick the dumbbell up fine as long as your hand is on it, but refuse when you set it down and take your hand away. One of my students had this problem; and, tiring of applying force, let his creative "genius" foul things up. When his dog refused to pick the dumbbell up, he teased the dog with it and then tossed it out a short distance. It really worked; the dog sailed out and picked up the dumbbell. The only problem was that the dog started "blinking" marks the next time we worked him in the field. He had made the association between field work and force-breaking before he was through his period of resentment. At the end of Step Four, the dog should go out a few feet, pick up the dumbbell and return to heel--all without force. Of course, if he refuses, force should be applied quickly and convincingly. Throughout Steps Three and Four, any application of force should be quick and definite, not tentative and apologetic. Give the command once, if the dog doesn't respond immediately, apply force quickly. Similarly, give praise quickly for the correct response, whether forced or not. Your retriever's resentment will diminish quickly as he becomes confident doing what he knows you expect of him. He will enjoy picking up the dumbbell and returning to heel with it--especially if he is sure that praise will follow. When the dog shows signs of enjoying the exercise, he is ready for Step Five, which is really just a sweetening up affair--not absolutely necessary, but greatly appreciated by both dog and handler. STEP FIVE: Sweetening the dog up with a jumping exercise. Until now, as you lengthened the distance you expected the dog to reach, you always held the dumbbell below the dog's eye-level, until you finally put it on the ground. Now, you hold it an inch or so above his head and say "Fetch." After all the steps the dog progressed through, he should have no trouble with this. He will reach up and take the dumbbell. Gradually increase the distance the dog has to reach until he is standing on his hind legs to get it. For some silly reason, dogs get a real kick out of this. When he is comfortable standing up for it, try having him jump a few inches to get it. I usually do not take a dog any further with this than holding the dumbbell at my own arm's height (I am only 5'7")--just enough for the dog to enjoy the jump. It takes no time for the dog to look forward to this--and mix it with those that have to be picked up off the floor. This jumping exercise seems to remove the last bit of resentment, and makes a pleasant transition from Step Four to Step Six. STEP SIX: Introducing retrieving dummies and birds. Your dog is completely force-broken now--with the dumbbell. He has not made any connection between this and field work yet, but he is ready for this since his period of resentment is long past, especially after the sweetening up in Step Five. It only remains to teach him that "fetch" and "give" apply to dummies and birds, as well as to the dumbbell, and you will be able to use this force-breaking in the field. Run your dog through all the Steps with each type of retrieving dummy you use. It will not take long, and not much force will be required. Personally, I finish this with an old waterlogged dummy that I no longer use for any other purpose. When the dog handles that without force, I know the job is 99% finished. Next, try birds. First dead pigeons, then dead pheasants, then dead ducks. Finally, go through it with live shackled ducks. It is a good idea to tape the live duck's bill shut so he cannot bite your dog. Later, this will not matter, for your dog will understand that a biting duck is easier to deal with than a displeased trainer. * * * it is. Your dog is completely force-broken, and it was not all that traumatic for either of you. Force was used intelligently, but sparingly. How long did it take? Well, for an experienced trainer but an average dog, about three weeks. For a beginner and an average dog, maybe five or six weeks. I have spent as much as three months for a "non-average" pointer with no natural retrieving instincts, and a higher than average level of sensitivity. This is not the usual case with pointers, much less retrievers. One final point--an important one. I made a sound movie showing the force-breaking of one young Golden female. I have used it to teach many beginners how to do this delicate bit of training. My family has long since tired of seeing the movie, but there is no escaping the sound of it. They call it "The Good Girl" movie. I must say "good girl" 200 times in that six hundred feet of film. My family is sick of it. Frankly, I was sick of it, too. However, in all the dogs I have force-broken and helped others to force-break, I have never seen a single dog that tired of hearing "good girl" or "good boy." That is the real secret to proper force-breaking . . . a little force mixed with a lot of praise. Edited January 22, 2014 by sandymere Quote Link to post
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