....

[jawn 449]

With all due respect it's not a wild canidae argument at all. It's about bite. Nature selected the bite that works best for holding game.

 

Nothing says everyone has to agree or breed dogs this way. I'll breed dogs this way because I've seen the advantage. I've seen undershot dogs that were outstanding animals. But I've also seen them not be able to hang on as well as the rest.

 

When I see a high number of dogs with bad bites that do as well as an equal number of dogs that are right.... I might change my mind. But I go with what I know.....and what works for what I do. I seen no reason to breed away from what works best.

[jawn 449]

 

There are a lot of things that some people do that I am a little taken back by. I don't give a damnn what another man does with his yard, but for me for those who are culling pups for instance because they are undershot It tells me a lot about this guys goals, and understanding. Those who practice this give all sorts of reasons behind it, but really all I'm left thinking is this person either hasn't produced many great dogs, or his high standard isn't great, its only good.

 

So in your experience an undershot terrier holds on as well as anything else on open ground with an animal several times it's size as it attempts to escape? How many times have you risked your own well being as well as that of the dog on it's ability to hold on as you tied or killed the animal? I have seen undershot dogs that held on especially when they had something to push against and reinforce or help them readjust their grip. I am curious as to how many you've seen take an ear or a skin hold of an animal that was much bigger and control the animal to the degree that you were able to sudue it. Sure traditional terrier work is in the ground. But we both work our dogs topside as well. How does the undershot dog compare here?

 

 

I've had the good fortune of producing some really fine animals in my life. I used to say, and still believe in a successful litter you will be lucky if you produced 1, or 2 pups that mature out as good as any that ever lived, and the rest of the litter will be good enough, to strait trash.

 

As good as any terrier that ever lived? That's quite a claim.

 

 

Though I respect the men that maintained, worked, and bred the dogs I would later work with I've NEVER put founders of "breeds" on a pedestal. There is a reason why most "breeds" have blurry history regarding their origin. Reason being is most founders of various "breeds" are liars, who will sell you the cake, but never the recipe

 

If this is respect.... I suppose it's better that most of these "liars" are long dead. Where I come from the recipe never really changes much... work what they gave you and cull as you need to. The men who I get my dogs from have spent their lives breeding something that they are proud of. Their dogs represent their names. I try to breed dogs from what they have sent me that get the job done... and that would make them proud. When they come to Texas and see what I've done with what they sent here... I hope they think I've done o.k. When I see something better I'll gladly say so..

 

 

Instead they fabricate some fantasy or folk lore about how they acquired this breed from some mythical creature that one day appeared from the forest with this canine that the world had previously never known. Its said the dog may have been a mixture of bla bla bla, with a dash way back of bla bla bla, who were mixed in this dog to gain this trait, or that trait (more bla, bla, bla)

and SHIZAAAAM! We now have this new "breed" that no mere mortal should EVER pollute with ANY other type of dog.

 

I'm gonna do my level best to come out that way this year and hunt that gun club with you. You show me a working terrier as good as any as ever lived...one worth polluting what I believe to be pretty good dogs... and I'll beat a path to your door.

 

Nuff said.

Edited June 21, 2013 by jawn

[bobby blackheart 1,209]

you say you want to make" those" guys proud?Their dogs represent their names?sounds to me like you want recognition and FAME for someone elses hard work?if you are in it as you say to please "these" guys-then THEY must be influencing your breeding program ? and its NOT yours but THEIR rules you follow?-IMO-maybe i have read it wrong?-im not the brightest button- been an interesting thread this-highlighting some peoples goals for the perfect specimen-looks wise over true function-some vain mother fuckers out there atb

[Stormer 23]

I have a bitch who is badly undershot, she fought with different kind of quarry and when she takes a hold she is locked,never released untill job is done, In a perfect world we want the complete package but I would choose an undershot solid worker anytime over an mediocre worker who has a level bite, for me caracter/gameness is always on top of my list.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Stormer

[jawn 449]

I'm not here hocking pups Bobby, and I can assure that I never will be. I don't mind taking advantage of someoone else's hard work.... and I believe I ought to give credit where it is due.

 

That said.... these guys aren't breeding allot of dogs. One maybe two litters a year. They sell them..... but not based off of what some dumb red neck in Texas thinks of them. What survives their culling is gone before they draw their first breath.

 

Of-course they have influenced my breeding program. And for that I am grateful. I'm not "in it" as you say... to please anyone other than myself. I'm a hunter first.... I'll breed from the best.... and hope for the best. And I'll tip my hat to better breeders than I'll ever be for helping me hunt behind some pretty fantastic animals. I won't import every dog I hunt.... it's just too damn expensive. In a few generations I'll take some credit for the imporvements or disasters that result from it.lol

[bobby blackheart 1,209]

I'm not here hocking pups Bobby, and I can assure that I never will be. I don't mind taking advantage of someoone else's hard work.... and I believe I ought to give credit where it is due.

 

That said.... these guys aren't breeding allot of dogs. One maybe two litters a year. They sell them..... but not based off of what some dumb red neck in Texas thinks of them. What survives their culling is gone before they draw their first breath.

 

Of-course they have influenced my breeding program. And for that I am grateful. I'm not "in it" as you say... to please anyone other than myself. I'm a hunter first.... I'll breed from the best.... and hope for the best. And I'll tip my hat to better breeders than I'll ever be for helping me hunt behind some pretty fantastic animals. I won't import every dog I hunt.... it's just too damn expensive. In a few generations I'll take some credit for the imporvements or disasters that result from it.lol

Fair reply that jawn atb and happy hunting.Bobby

[MainAttraction! 83]

Edited June 21, 2013 by MainAttraction!

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

 

 

There are a lot of things that some people do that I am a little taken back by. I don't give a damnn what another man does with his yard, but for me for those who are culling pups for instance because they are undershot It tells me a lot about this guys goals, and understanding. Those who practice this give all sorts of reasons behind it, but really all I'm left thinking is this person either hasn't produced many great dogs, or his high standard isn't great, its only good.

 

So in your experience an undershot terrier holds on as well as anything else on open ground with an animal several times it's size as it attempts to escape? How many times have you risked your own well being as well as that of the dog on it's ability to hold on as you tied or killed the animal? I have seen undershot dogs that held on especially when they had something to push against and reinforce or help them readjust their grip. I am curious as to how many you've seen take an ear or a skin hold of an animal that was much bigger and control the animal to the degree that you were able to sudue it. Sure traditional terrier work is in the ground. But we both work our dogs topside as well. How does the undershot dog compare here?

 

 

I've had the good fortune of producing some really fine animals in my life. I used to say, and still believe in a successful litter you will be lucky if you produced 1, or 2 pups that mature out as good as any that ever lived, and the rest of the litter will be good enough, to strait trash.

 

As good as any terrier that ever lived? That's quite a claim.

 

 

Though I respect the men that maintained, worked, and bred the dogs I would later work with I've NEVER put founders of "breeds" on a pedestal. There is a reason why most "breeds" have blurry history regarding their origin. Reason being is most founders of various "breeds" are liars, who will sell you the cake, but never the recipe

 

If this is respect.... I suppose it's better that most of these "liars" are long dead. Where I come from the recipe never really changes much... work what they gave you and cull as you need to. The men who I get my dogs from have spent their lives breeding something that they are proud of. Their dogs represent their names. I try to breed dogs from what they have sent me that get the job done... and that would make them proud. When they come to Texas and see what I've done with what they sent here... I hope they think I've done o.k. When I see something better I'll gladly say so..

 

 

Instead they fabricate some fantasy or folk lore about how they acquired this breed from some mythical creature that one day appeared from the forest with this canine that the world had previously never known. Its said the dog may have been a mixture of bla bla bla, with a dash way back of bla bla bla, who were mixed in this dog to gain this trait, or that trait (more bla, bla, bla)

and SHIZAAAAM! We now have this new "breed" that no mere mortal should EVER pollute with ANY other type of dog.

 

I'm gonna do my level best to come out that way this year and hunt that gun club with you. You show me a working terrier as good as any as ever lived...one worth polluting what I believe to be pretty good dogs... and I'll beat a path to your door.

 

Nuff said.

 

 

I like most on a public board speak in general terms which often leads to misinterpretation. In an effort to be a little more specific here we go....

I have worked with and bred another type of working dog where I believe I have produced some that I felt were as good as any, many that were high, and loads of culls. Regarding terriers I am new to them. I have only kept them for the last 8, or 9 years, and only began breeding fell type terriers for the last 5 years. I only hunt dogs from my own breedings that originated from other working terriers and bulldogs from by previous work.

First off, I have not seen enough terriers to say I’ve produced a terrier today that is as good as “any”. My terriers that I have bred have done some unique things in the terrier world from what I am told. (ie solo located coyote, deep in a hillside pipe, entering, engaging, and completely dismantling the quarry and drawing a very healthy adult out at a good distance, to another one caught/dismantling one topside that came in to attack my terriers that was a very large dominant adult (more than one terrier was used to catch him in a way rarely seen), with another being a digging dog abroad who has met both quarry and works in a unique way below. They are still a working project of mine and I should know more in the next few years. I don’t know how they rate compared to other terriers and in all situations but I enjoy them more than other types of terriers that I have seen.

Just to clear a few things up I used an exageration to make a point when I said I have never put “founders” of breeds on a pedestal, because most I believe were liars who kept the true recipe of how they made their dogs a secret. Which is why today it is not truly known how most dogs originated, and why most dogs have been giving some silly fancy sounding name (for marketing $$$) instead of just identifying them by their work, or what kennel they came from.

Jawn,

The guys you get your jagds aren’t the founders of the jagd. They are just guys like the rest of us who do the best they can hunting their dogs and rollin the dice while trying to tip the odd in their favor come breeding time.

I think you misunderstood a lot of what I said when I spoke in vague general terms that I believe were strong on principle (some of that is my fault). I realize that some, maybe even most could give two shits about what I believe I have learned breeding another type of worker, and the principles that I believe are transferable. At the VERY least I learned canine biomechanics from my background in bulldogs. What really just doesn’t add up for me is you mentioned you kept bulldogs and it sounded like it was more than a passing phase for you, and what I’m completely blown away by is how you never learned how well an undershot dog could bite from working with bulldogs? A bulldogs mouth is tested as hard, or harder than ANY other working dog activity. They write the book for a dog being able to bite and “hold on”. I can’t figure out how you didn’t see many undershot dogs perform not just satisfactory but at a very high level with undershot mouths?

When I mentioned I bred to hopefully have 1, or 2 in the litter that are dogs as good as any that ever lived your right that is a hell of a quest (it did not mean that I am only hoping for 2 good dogs per litter). However, hard that is to attain you may be knocking those rare ones on that head as pups if you cull for what I feel are non significant imperfections if you cull ALL undershot pups.

Jawn,

how long have you been breeding terriers? Why are you still importing dogs instead of making breedings from previous good dogs you have imported and use your own breeding skills/judgments of culling, and working, and owning nice terriers from them? I’m much more busy than I would like to be in my personal life and can’t remember everything I read on an internet dog board but It seems on the boards I do see you on I never really hear much hunting reports from you from things you’ve bred? For the most part to the best of my recollection whenever I hear you speak of dogs you own/hunt its dogs that you bought from others and not dogs you have bred?

Your welcome out here to hunt anytime you like. I have guest rooms for you, and a friend. I’d love to be able to see the dogs you have bought from some of these great breeders you acknowledged.

PS: This was Brandy. She lived a few decades ago. She was didn't have a scissor bite and instead was undershot, but I'd bet you 2 months of salary she'd take your money and put this entire topic to rest.

 

would you say the dogs bite would be any weaker with a scissor bite. ? and do you agree that some undershot dogs, have a jaw set that allows the canines to lock in. where as some cannot due to the teeth being misalined. and unable to shut together fully.

have you had or seen problems with badly undershot terriers losing bite . and also have you seen any take damage to there teeth due to work. ?

 

thats a fine looking terrier and interesting post.

[MainAttraction! 83]

would you say the dogs bite would be any weaker with a scissor bite. ? and do you agree that some undershot dogs, have a jaw set that allows the canines to lock in. where as some cannot due to the teeth being misalined. and unable to shut together fully.

have you had or seen problems with badly undershot terriers losing bite . and also have you seen any take damage to there teeth due to work. ?

 

thats a fine looking terrier and interesting post.

 

No weaker than a scissor bit just cause your undershot.

Terriers jaws do not lock its just the way they decide to bite and cause damage.

I would imagine there could be a problem if a mouth is severely deformed and not lining up properly that would cause them to not bite well, BUT, to say if a dogs bite is imperfect it is inferior to a scissor mouth only shows me how little one knows. FUNCTION. If for whatever reason a dog cannot bite whether its because he has a perfect scissor bite and lacks strength in other areas needed for biting or he's missing, or has a deformed mouth what ever it is the dog who cannot bite well enough to do the job should be culled. Not simply because the mother f'er needs a beauty make over and you think he needs to be culled because he needs braces.

Loosing canines is the only concern I have ever had, and even a dog with a missing canine, and a few broken ones if he bites HARD he will still be able to do all the holding and damage necessary. My point from the word go is IF a dog bites hard and "holds on" the mouth is good (dog that doesn't keep holds says more about the dog and less about the mouth imo). Loosing little flea bitter teeth, and over time possibly some canines is expected if your dog is one that is committed. Believe whatever you like. Outside of that these are my truths. Others have and will find their own. Happy Hunting

Edited June 21, 2013 by MainAttraction!

[Cleanspade 3,322]

thanks for that

[Lamp Lady 4]

Cul undershot pups or their parents! Ffs every dog deserves a chance to prove their worth no???? It doesnt matter about the bite like I said I have the Toddy an nancy line any undershot dog out of tha lline have been good good dogs if the dog don't work fair enough. Don't matter wha a dog looks like at all!

[jawn 449]

Main... I'll answer your questions even though it appears you missed mine. I did say that I've had undershot dogs that did as well as any.... I went on to say that they seemed to do best when they had something to push against that helped them readjust or reinforce their grip. Most of these were bulldogs. I chose not to elaborate hoping instead you would read between the lines. I've also had undershot catch dogs. They sucked. Every single one of them.

 

I have discussed dogs that I've bred and how they are working out with you. I distictly remember stating that I was hoping for a particular trait to carry forward by inbreeding half brother and sister only to discover the trait came from the bottom side. I remember telling you that aside from that I was pretty happy with their performance. You asked to see peds of the dogs... and complained that they weren't in english.

 

I'm pretty good with people having an oppinion of their own.....especially one based on experience. This is why when you stated.....

 

"There are a lot of things that some people do that I am a little taken back by. I don't give a damnn what another man does with his yard, but for me for those who are culling pups for instance because they are undershot It tells me a lot about this guys goals, and understanding. Those who practice this give all sorts of reasons behind it, but really all I'm left thinking is this person either hasn't produced many great dogs, or his high standard isn't great, its only good"

 

I figured I'd ask how many times you risked your well being counting on a dogs ability to hold it's grip on an animal several times it's size. A wise man once told me that it's cool to have a casual oppinion on something you know a little about.... but if your going to have a strong opinion it's a different story or something to that effect.

 

As for producing dogs that were as good as any in a successful litter...... man.....those are your goals and I respect that. But they are also your words in response to a discussion about bite affecting hunting terriers. I didn't put words in your mouth....in-fact I quoted you. It's a lofty goal.... and I hope you succeed.

 

I have pups that have solo located coyotes.... or been located by solo coyotes and have been killed because the yote drew them in. I've told you before that I respect what you are trying to accomplish.... I surely respect the work of a dog that draws one.

 

I'm well aware that the men I get dogs from aren't the founders. But they put their dogs on the ground infront of one of them. The comment had more to do with respect. I guess we show it in different ways. Generally when I call someone a liar... I lose respect for them.

 

I've been breeding terriers in one form or another for most of my life. My first bulldog was from Maurice Carver's yard and a gift from my dad. It was a cur and I was a kid. I didn't start breeding dogs of my own until I was in my teens and they were usually someone elses dogs that had lost or off of dogs that were mediocre at best. I hunted with jagds for the first time about twelve years ago. I imported my first one probably eight or nine years ago and started trying to breed them shortly after that.

 

I thought the first ones were great because they were so much better than anything else I had seen...in truth they were crap and produced crap. I've imported somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty dogs over the years trying to find consistency. Most couldn't get the job done here and were never bred... many dispite their accomplishments or the accomplishments of their parents were culled. I have since found dogs that work well here. Most of what I import these days is related to these dogs.

 

When I get dogs in... they are hunted. There isn't a single one of them that's gotten a pass. I don't give a sh*t if it cost several thousand dollars. I haven't bred from a dog that hasn't proven it's worth doing what I do. There isn't a trophy or ribbon hung on it's a** that has kept it from the feild. I've lost four or five dogs this year alone that weren't culls. three were produced here.

 

There are pics of dogs I've produced here.

Edited June 22, 2013 by jawn

[jawn 449]

I'm gonna say this and I'm done with it. I haven't said that anyone shouldn't breed what works best for what they do. I'm not here buying... or selling pups.

 

I know what this next statement will provoke but here it goes.... There isn't a well regarded jagdterrier breeder in the world that would breed an undershot dog. They are culled from the breeding pool immediately... no exceptions... ever.... under any circumstances.

 

This is tradition with the breed and it has been since it's inception. It hasn't in any way affected their working ability or turned them into show dogs.

 

I haven't said that they are any better or any worse than anything else..... they are good enough for me.

 

I'll take it a step further.... most well regarded jagdterrier breeders will not breed dogs with missing or crooked teeth and EVERY dog is evaluated prior to being allowed to breed both physically and in the feild.

 

I respect the work that the men I got my dogs from put into creating what I have..... If that says something about my understanding.... or goals.... so be it. I suppose it should.

[Nick 14]

Lets be fair, the DJT is also a lot about looks. The dog is shaped to a image the creators thought they should have. Shape is a IMPORTANT selection criteria for the germans where with the Pat/Fell work is most important and the rest will hopefully follow.

 

Let us look at the canine gladiator the Pitbull, do we think they would cull a undershot Champion or Grandchampion? Or even considder not breeding him/her? Would the Pitbull be the dog it is today?

 

And lets not forget that most undershot dogs are undershot because they have a extreme strong underjaw compared to dogs with a normal bite. The selection in showdogs on perfect bites results not seldomly in lost of strength of the jaw and can cause snipy bad teethed dog.

 

Like everything, just keep track of what you do and try not to double up on some of the faults as this can cause real problems, and yes this goes also for undershot dogs. But we can avoid that by using common sence.

[Mosby 355]

I'd keep and breed an undershot dog. But I'd breed it to something that wouldn't promote the fault further.

National Geo did a little bit on the bite force of domestic versus wild canines. The wolf topped the chart. I know you can't tell completely by poking a stick in a dog's face how hard it will bite but the wolf with a little corrective snap did more than the other dogs by a long shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwB2Lzkacps

There's more to the video if you look for it. But I'm gonna counter you Main and say that we have not produced more powerful animals than mother nature. More powerful than a fox perhaps. But even if badger digging were still legal with the little dogs, they wouldn't have produced an earth dog that could compare to their resilience. We do not know more than nature. All the problems in our domestic dogs including working terriers, prove that.