Putting Your Hand Up To Your Dog When Its Done Wrong

[davey 310]

Mate of mine has two border collies and even lamps one !! Now these dogs will jump threw hoops of fire if asked lol but never on lead work sheep the lot best dog man i know and he always said never open palm or punch kick never !! But he swears by a good scruff and bury head into ground to over power or he grabs them by ear and pins them !! Works for me to

[Casso 1,261]

Casso, I only wish I was a more intelligent man to fully understand your post.. I think I know where your coming from and if poss could you please tell more...?

 

Just one other thing, 'my ten penneth worth' on correction, what I have learned over the years is that most owners 'break their own bond' with their dog...

 

Once 'force' has been used, it can be used again much easier and for much less. Especially with highly strung owners and from there... It's a downward spiral...

Many years ago when I first started in hunting Bosun I did exactly the same as everybody else I was top dog pack leader I controlled the grub all the normal stuff kept them in their place but I felt there was something missing some other element I wasn't addressing because in certain situations the mutt just didn't want to listen these times normally included objects of attraction to the dog , other dogs, cats what ever generated drive or high energy in him

 

It took me years to figure out the drive energy created in a dog needs somewhere to go , he feels shit been stuck with energy he has to act on it, the mutt doing somersaults on the end of the lead at the sight of another dog or whatever it is because energy in nature like electricity has to run to ground simple as that and how a dog grounds energy is orally

 

So I began to work with pups managing but not disciplining never trying to fall out with them keeping them social towards me never taking dog behaviour personally because the more confident a dog is with you the more energy it can give you I want the dog to have zero fear of me , you can only have that approach with a dog if you believe the dog is a completely social animal , I mean 100% social and not a social climber a belief I threw away long ago,

 

The crux of the matter is when the pup is energised I encourage him to me I take out a tug item and he grounds energy when he grounds energy he feels good and I get the credit for it , the same for stock breaking I don't confront him I give an alternative to acting on energy by chasing sheep I become his biggest access to feeling good and the best way for him to turn energy into relief

I take care of two of any canines biggest issues , do I feel safe and what do I do with my energy

 

It's a system that works for me i use it with problem dogs brought in particularly fear biters and aggressive mutts a lot of which have been disciplined for mouthing and biting as pups , running dogs are not too bad but large pet dogs with no outlet to bite and just let fecking rip on something while been praised and encouraged to do so is such a behaviour changer you can see the difference in a week ,

Can't cover everything you've got the basis

[Bosun11 537]

Oh dear Casso, I'm loving this but still 'not quite' getting it... OK, two things, 'Grounds energy', what exactly does that mean, as in you play 'tug of war', he does a bit of play/work type exercise...?? If so, how does that work with retrieving, because most pups that love to play tug of war are very hard to change of the habit, especially if the bunny is in the bag (gob), so to speak..??

And with stock breaking, you give him an 'alternative to acting on energy by chasing sheep', as in what..?? No disrespect here, but most would read that as a good slap..!?

But you say you are 'his biggest access to feeling good', which, maybe because I'm programmed different means you let him chase..?? Because in the next bit you say 'turn energy into relief', which apart from the sexual conetation, I have no idea about...??

 

I do apologise if I really come across a 'leetle bit tick' and maybe Skycats got it right (but I still don't get some of it!!) but I just don't get what your saying.. Sorry mate..??

[C Hall 552]

The general consensus on this topic is....Its not wise to raise a hand to a dog when its trying to kill another dog especially if its a saluki cross because it will take the huff loss its bond and never ever ever take any notice of you again ? FFS

Edited June 3, 2013 by C Hall

[Astral 253]

Oh dear Casso, I'm loving this but still 'not quite' getting it... OK, two things, 'Grounds energy', what exactly does that mean, as in you play 'tug of war', he does a bit of play/work type exercise...?? If so, how does that work with retrieving, because most pups that love to play tug of war are very hard to change of the habit, especially if the bunny is in the bag (gob), so to speak..??

And with stock breaking, you give him an 'alternative to acting on energy by chasing sheep', as in what..?? No disrespect here, but most would read that as a good slap..!?

But you say you are 'his biggest access to feeling good', which, maybe because I'm programmed different means you let him chase..?? Because in the next bit you say 'turn energy into relief', which apart from the sexual conetation, I have no idea about...??

 

I do apologise if I really come across a 'leetle bit tick' and maybe Skycats got it right (but I still don't get some of it!!) but I just don't get what your saying.. Sorry mate..??

 

 

I must admit when I read it the first thing that came to my mind was a picture of the long haired dude at a trippy hippy seminar attended in University about grounding our universal energy.

[Bosun11 537]

 

Oh dear Casso, I'm loving this but still 'not quite' getting it... OK, two things, 'Grounds energy', what exactly does that mean, as in you play 'tug of war', he does a bit of play/work type exercise...?? If so, how does that work with retrieving, because most pups that love to play tug of war are very hard to change of the habit, especially if the bunny is in the bag (gob), so to speak..??

And with stock breaking, you give him an 'alternative to acting on energy by chasing sheep', as in what..?? No disrespect here, but most would read that as a good slap..!?

But you say you are 'his biggest access to feeling good', which, maybe because I'm programmed different means you let him chase..?? Because in the next bit you say 'turn energy into relief', which apart from the sexual conetation, I have no idea about...??

 

I do apologise if I really come across a 'leetle bit tick' and maybe Skycats got it right (but I still don't get some of it!!) but I just don't get what your saying.. Sorry mate..??

 

 

I must admit when I read it the first thing that came to my mind was a picture of the long haired dude at a trippy hippy seminar attended in University about grounding our universal energy.

 

And the second thing....?

[gouldy257 79]

i use to own a salukiXwhippet best dog i ever own'd,,,,, come straight back to me even to my women was great we bitch never slapped her all i had to do was raise tone of my voice and she dropped her head and walked back to my side,,,, but in saying that as already mentioned all dogs are different,,,

[skycat 6,174]

Bosun: imagine holding a coiled spring. It is full of energy waiting to be released. When the coil is released the spring flies off, moves or whatever. Now, if I understand correctly, (and this is just a leap at something too tenuous to be fully understood by an undisciplined and unscientific mind like mine), you can let that spring fly out of your hand with no aim, no purpose and it could do some damage. If you harness the spring to something: like holding a battery in a torch for example, then that energy is grounded ..... oh dear, I think I'm mixing my bad science with even worse metaphors

 

I'll plough on nonetheless ... the dog is full of energy, which needs a release. I'm not too happy with the 'grounding' terminology actually, maybe I should use lightening as an example. Thundercloud full of electricity: lightening grounds it: sound better? Dog full of energy, needs grounding in something: you. But to capture that energy in a controlled way and not just let it flash about causing problems, it needs a focus: tug play, or in the case of lightening, a lightening conductor. Ah, that's making more sense to me now even as I write.

 

Train dog to lug on tug toy, energy is grounded, dog feels the release of that energy, but at the same time connects that release with being with you: feel good factor off the charts here. Dog happy, owner happy, in control and dog satisfied.

 

As far as retrieving rabbits goes: you teach the dog the rules of the game before you ever let it tug. Dog willingly learns to give up the item as soon as you say give because it has learned that in only a couple of seconds you will tell it to tug once more. It is called, in those new fangled dog training terms, 'capping the drive'. Dog learns to control its own drive in this case because it knows that the greater reward of tugging is coming again: it sounds like magic, but I guarantee it really works. I taught it to my adult dogs when I first started doing it and without exception they all understood the concept within minutes.

 

When it comes to real rabbits, because the dog has learned to 'give', even when in a state of high energy and excitement, you have no problem with the dog wanting to tug the rabbit it catches. It has learned to 'cap its drive', and wait for the later reward. Doesn't matter that you won't be giving the dog that rabbit to tug on, because the dog has learned the rules of the game, and is now conditioned to let go or grab when you say so, not whenever it wants.

 

I did a series of four articles on tug training which I've been sending to people on here. If you want I can send them to you. Let me have your email addy by pm as I can't send them on here by pm. I've changed non retrievers into retrievers by training like this, even adult dogs, but everything is in the timing. Look at this video of a great dog trainer with his Malinois: very high drive dog. Americans use the word 'out' instead of 'give' as you can hear in the video. This level of control seems awesome, but I got the same results with my lurchers and Airedale after very few sessions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjCAJ7wghY

[skycat 6,174]

Meant to say that in that video his 'yes' command to the dog to allow it to grab the ball is so quiet it is only a hiss. He also uses the French words 'debout' for 'stand' and 'couche' for down.

[Bosun11 537]

Thank you for that explanation Penny, I was trying to get it but couldn't grasp the concept. I really am open to such methods.

Thanks Casso for mentioning it in the first place.

 

I'll drop you a pm Penny, appreciated..

[C Hall 552]

Skycat good explanation it makes sense

 

The fact remains if a dog is attacking another dog intent on causing serious damage or even death, hands need to be raised and punishment dealt out saluki cross or not or the same will happen again sooner or later? probably when least expected

Edited June 4, 2013 by C Hall

[Casso 1,261]

I'll throw a bit more light on it I'm not making my self understood sorry

 

Ok if we look at protection dogs some of which are the most highly driven intelligent animals in the canine world we see an animal developed for a completely different role a herding role working sheep with a Shepard nothing strange there , but what is strange is what they have developed into and why ,

 

One is the fact that they have a high emotional capacity which is the ability to forsake instinctual behaviours for the greater good of the group ,( the group been the working partnership man +dog)instinctual behaviours meaning the bite , they have an ability not to break down into a bite when in a highly emotional state (drive is pure emotion) they can still take instruction when in a drive state of mind , it's a feat beyond most bull dogs terriers and other highly driven working types when they are worked up emotionally their need to make contact far out weights their emotional connection to man therefore cannot take instruction

 

When we look at protection dogs training we will see that they were fixated on a tug item as pups not a very attractive or interesting thing for a dog to be stimulated by but it works because of how it makes a dog feel , dogs like wolves were bred to sink their teeth into something and shake it out that's the final act the finale in making your average mutt feel great it's instinctive and energy sapping stress releasing its the feel good factor in the dogs makeup, the tug item is promoted in the protection dogs mind as something wonderfull just because it has the ability to make the dog feel good ,think about it there is nothing remotely attractive or animated about it just the energy we create in it by movement , we put energy into the item it excites the dog and when a dog is excited he needs to ground the energy , the movement causes him to want to bite and shake it thats how he grounds energy

 

When dogs are excited they feel compelled to bite its how they bring themselves back to neutral again , it's like us been stuck with stress we are more likely to get emotionally and physically involved in situations as a way of unconsciously resolving the issue or the stressed guy who goes down the gym and knocks feck out of the punch bag its all a release of energy and a relief afterwards but dogs are more honest than us they have no problem expressing the fact they need to bite something

 

So when I use a tug item with a pup I'm putting down a history of 1making him feel good about himself and 2 connecting on his most basic level a connection to his wild state the state where most of the time he f**king off into the distance after something

 

It follows on to training in drive I have an item he wants that can stimulate a strong emotional connect in the dog(drive)and he has the ability to take instruction in that mindset , I can then practise impulse control , a system where a dog is attracted to something but feels his best way of attaining is to follow instruction , I have a dog here who when excited by something food or been brought out instead of jumping round like a jack rabbit will lie down because thats how he believes will bring him the most success in obtaining what he wants , that's what he feels is the best thing to do with his energy, he controls himself internally if ya get my drift

The tug item is a training tool not a play item it give me access to the very need in every dog , it tunes the dog into me in and makes himself social to fit with me , it doesn't make him hard mouthed in the same way as a kid needs the know to hit hard first before he can regulate himself to spar easy

Just to finish off when a pup of mine is stimulated by the sight of something and feels he needs to act chase sheep or chickens whatever it is , I back up while the dog is on a long line call him up show him the tug item let him chase me down grab and wrestle the item off me , he feels like a hero , he's brought his stimulated levels back to neutral and I had in fact become the prey animal not the alpha if you dominate the dog too much he cant give you that sort of energy ,

 

Taken me forever to write this up on the phone there are other elements but what I will say a lot of problem canine behaviours will cease when the dog has complete trust and tunes you in it wants to do what you ask because you are the biggest element in the dogs life,

Look if folk feel the need to twat the mutt that's up to them, but for me personally it achieved feck all and seemed to be more of an act of frustration because nothing else i knew seem to works , for me the system wasn't working so I changed the system , hope that helps , take it to pm if I'm not making myself clear I just don't see dogs in the way most people do and it can be hard to articulate in this form sorry

[Nobby 65]

Skycat good explanation it makes sense

 

The fact remains if a dog is attacking another dog intent on causing serious damage or even death, hands need to be raised and punishment dealt out saluki cross or not or the same will happen again sooner or later? probably when least expected

Like c hall says if a dog is attacking another dog pray tell how you would break the the fight up

[Casso 1,261]

 

Skycat good explanation it makes sense

 

The fact remains if a dog is attacking another dog intent on causing serious damage or even death, hands need to be raised and punishment dealt out saluki cross or not or the same will happen again sooner or later? probably when least expected

 

Like c hall says if a dog is attacking another dog pray tell how you would break the the fight up

When I've broken up dog fights in the past I never felt the need to kick the shite out of either of them in fact the calmer you deal with two fighting dogs the less injury likely to occur to yourself or the dogs

 

People not used to working with strong dogs seem to lose the head and overreact in such situations, I just don't take it personally

 

Not sure what you want to hear but what I will tell ya is I don't lose the head and I don't try to dominate them afterwards

 

I haven't had a habitual fighter yet from a pup managed through its early months and brought to a point where it can express itself in full canine fashion the problem don't arise

 

The question arises then is it in the nature of the dog or the natural environment a pup is brought up in, dogs are so tuned in to man how much influence do we actually have in the grown dog as a finished product , my answer would be a whole lot more than we actually believe we have

[Bosun11 537]

Casso, now it all makes sense... Thank you for taking the time to write that up... On a bloody phone..!!

 

This is a method of training that is new to me but when my next pup finally arrives i'm going to have enough knowledge on the subject to put it into place.

What I like about it is the 'feel good' factor in a dog, I like that, that and a close bond. If those things are ironed out from the off, all things in the field should come easy or at least easier..!!

 

As for twatting your dog in a fight situation, i've posted on the subject before and the last thing you should be doing is hitting the dogs...!!!