Advice Needed.17Hmr Or .22 Hornet??????????????

[jam1e 12]

Hi folks,

I have asked a few questions here and there on the forum about my quandary.

It may be opening a can of worms and no doubt there will be good points for both.

Anyhow, I already own a nice .17hmr CZ 452 Silhouette, with a nice "Rimfire Magic" trigger and a 10 round mag. Which i like, bar one thing. It really gets on my t*** when at distance, (around 100 yards)

it's affected by even a breeze. Yes, i can and do adjust my aim accordingly, (to the best of my ability) But it's just irratating.....

I sorted my recent hmr poor zeroing out with a good clean.... Sunday just gone was a lovely day, albeit a bit blustery. On this day i was out trying various powder loads on 40 grain heads in .204 Ruger. Anyhow, what a great opportunity to take my hmr with me.

I shot from 100 yards out to around 190 yards with the hmr. Granted that was pushing it abit for the hmr, especially in said breeze......for me anyhow....

My needs are for a rifle for vermin, ranging from corvids, pigeon, rabbits, and the odd fox. Now, yes, a 50 grain head from a centrefire my be overkill on a pigeon. But a kills a kill, and it's opportunity. Just to add that I also have a .22lr. (And no i don't shoot at pigeons in trees with a bullet rifle for the obvious.....)

Now, the ramblings over........ Having been reading a little and watching some videos about the .22 Hornet, i couldn't help but think 35-45+ grains would not have been affected nowhere near as much as my hmr was. Possibly??? I say 35-45 as i'd like to achieve a reasonably flat trajectory.

Now i know there is a new wsm rimfire coming out in the uk, but i can't wait that long....

Also, yes the Hornet would be more expensive to feed IF i wasn't already a "reloader". I've not done the maths, but i've been told from a few owners that if re-using your brass, the .22 Hornet with a reasonable head will cost around 17p-20p each. Which is similar if not the same as what i'm paying for my hmr rounds anyhow. And i enjoy a good reloading session...

I'm also told that the .22 Hornet is a very versatile round. Being able to be made hot, or very light, both in terms of powder and bullet weight.

I'm thinking of either ditching the hmr and getting a .22 Hornet, (one for one)

Or adding the Hornet as an extra and seeing how things pan out with it.

What i'm after from you folks is some objective, (courteous if possible ) opinions on my thoughts.

The pro's and con's as you see them. Especially from people who currently own both rifles. And also some info from .22 Hornet owners on how they get on with them on a day to day type basis. And some info on the availability of ammo products for reloading it. That said, i'm sure it can't be any harder than doing the same for my .204 Ruger, and that's easy enough....

Cheers folks!

 

[charlie caller 3,654]

Get the hornet mate, there is no comparison, I have shot at the same targets as my mate with his hmr in a breeze and the difference is staggering, apart from not being deer legal, the hornet will do everything you want it to from crows to foxes, and as a general carry round rifle it is perfect,handload and 200 yard foxes are dead, and if you shoot the odd bunny you are not breaking the bank, one word about reloading the hornet, get the Lee universal case flaring die, and the factory crimp die, cost of both about 20 quid, gently flare the case neck to accept the flat based bullet, then a moderate crimp into place, these two quick operations will see your group sizes shrink to ragged one holers , the 35 grn vmax is good and gives instant kills on foxes but does start to lose energy after 160-175 yards, much better, my experiments showed are the Sierra 45grn varminter, not quite as fast as the vmax but retains its energy better, and is even less affected by wind, I found a load of 10.3 grns of H110 gave fantastic results with this bullet,Sierra also do a 40gn varminter which I never tried so would be worth a go, but trust me on the flare/crimp mate, have fun.

[Alsone 789]

Or wait and see what .17 WSM does when its released.

 

It outperforms .22 Hornet on both drop and windage by a factor of 2X and has only 13 ft lbs less energy at 250 yards (150ft lbs @ 250 yds!) according to preliminary ballistic tables released before release.

 

It's also fast at 3,000fps! That's 400fps faster than .22 Hornet at the muzzle and its nearly 600fps faster at 250 yards!

 

Being rimfire its also stated to be about 2/3 rds cheaper on ammo cost.

 

I understand the release has been pushed back to June / July.

 

So question of if you can wait and see and view real world reports or if you must have another gun now.

 

Edited May 29, 2013 by Alsone

[charlie caller 3,654]

Or wait and see what .17 WSM does when its released.

 

It outperforms .22 Hornet on both drop and windage by a factor of 2X and has only 13 ft lbs less energy at 250 yards (150ft lbs @ 250 yds!) according to preliminary ballistic tables released before release.

 

It's also fast at 3,000fps! That's 400fps faster than .22 Hornet at the muzzle and its nearly 600fps faster at 250 yards!

 

Being rimfire its also stated to be about 2/3 rds cheaper on ammo cost.

 

I understand the release has been pushed back to June / July.

 

So question of if you can wait and see and view real world reports or if you must have another gun now.

 

Well it is not faster than the hornet using 35grn vmax bullets, as a load of 12.3 grains of H110 will give 3050 fps from a 22" barrel, and that is with a 35gn bullet, not a puny 20 gn and believe me I can load a 45gn hornet bullet up way beyond 2337 fps at 50 yards,another fad cartridge that has not been tested in the field, unlike the hornet that has been around in one guise or another since the end of the nineteenth century, however I must stress that handloading the hornet is essential, as factory ammo as quoted in the above figures is rather pedestrian (with the exeption of Hornady 35gn vmax factory offering) no forget your nail gun cartridge, and buy a hornet, tried tested, and very sweet to shoot. Oh and lets not forget that a lot of forces wont be allowing the nail gun to be used on foxes.

Edited May 29, 2013 by charlie caller

[jam1e 12]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

Realistically, (and not being up on importation issues regarding ammo/rifles) imho the wsm won't be around for some time in the uk. We're hardly a big money maker for the USA, so i think most supplies will go elsewhere, way before we get a look-in.

I also prefer the .22 Hornet, partly due to the fact it has been around so long, and as "Charlie Caller" (CC) has said, it's tried and tested, and the reloading data available for it is huge!

CC, it's good to get info from someone who shoots the Hornet alongside someone who shoots a hmr. I've heard people mention crimping being the way to go for increased accuracy. As for flaring due to flat base heads. Have you done much data collection on boat tail vs flat base as regards energy retention (bc) ? What were your findings?

I've also heard that going with boat-tail v-max heavy heads is not usually possible, unless each round is fed in by hand due to c.o.a.l being to much for the mag?? Have you had any issues with this?

Cheers

Jamie

Edited May 29, 2013 by jam1e

[morgan the moon 0]

I have a 527 American in the hornet, had it for about 4 years, great round out to 200yds.

A lot quieter than the .223 howa I also have if noise is a issue.

As far as ammo goes, I load my own using Vmax 35 and 40 grain heads,

The 40 grainers will not fit in the mag, so I always load the 40 in the chamber

and load the 35 grainers in the mag as back up if needed, which Is very rarely

as the 40 grainers are excellent and very accurate.

I use mine mainly for fox but is also good on long range rabbits.

[Alsone 789]

 

Well it is not faster than the hornet using 35grn vmax bullets, as a load of 12.3 grains of H110 will give 3050 fps from a 22" barrel, and that is with a 35gn bullet, not a puny 20 gn and believe me I can load a 45gn hornet bullet up way beyond 2337 fps at 50 yards,another fad cartridge that has not been tested in the field, unlike the hornet that has been around in one guise or another since the end of the nineteenth century, however I must stress that handloading the hornet is essential, as factory ammo as quoted in the above figures is rather pedestrian (with the exeption of Hornady 35gn vmax factory offering) no forget your nail gun cartridge, and buy a hornet, tried tested, and very sweet to shoot. Oh and lets not forget that a lot of forces wont be allowing the nail gun to be used on foxes.

 

 

Well I guess its going to depend on whether you want to reload or not.

 

Those who've shot the new .17WSM on press days report 1/2 MOA groupings, 1/2 the bullet drop or wind drift of .22 Hornet and in practical usage, very good results against Coyotes. With almost the same energy, its a very even call on choice.

 

It's going to be horses for courses but its unfair to write something off before its even been released. If the OP doesn't want to wait or prefers Hornet, then fair enough, its his choice but give .17 WSM a chance as it could be a game changer if it lives up to its pre-release reputation.

[charlie caller 3,654]

Never bothered trying to load the longer bullets, as I found the Sierra bullets did all I needed and more,but having experimented I would say crimping the bullets is almost essential,as is flaring the case neck to ensure the bullets seat with minimum runout, and I found Lee collet dies produced the most accurate loads, as I do incedently with the .243.

[jam1e 12]

 

 

Well it is not faster than the hornet using 35grn vmax bullets, as a load of 12.3 grains of H110 will give 3050 fps from a 22" barrel, and that is with a 35gn bullet, not a puny 20 gn and believe me I can load a 45gn hornet bullet up way beyond 2337 fps at 50 yards,another fad cartridge that has not been tested in the field, unlike the hornet that has been around in one guise or another since the end of the nineteenth century, however I must stress that handloading the hornet is essential, as factory ammo as quoted in the above figures is rather pedestrian (with the exeption of Hornady 35gn vmax factory offering) no forget your nail gun cartridge, and buy a hornet, tried tested, and very sweet to shoot. Oh and lets not forget that a lot of forces wont be allowing the nail gun to be used on foxes.

 

 

Well I guess its going to depend on whether you want to reload or not.

 

Those who've shot the new .17WSM on press days report 1/2 MOA groupings, 1/2 the bullet drop or wind drift of .22 Hornet and in practical usage, very good results against Coyotes. With almost the same energy, its a very even call on choice.

 

It's going to be horses for courses but its unfair to write something off before its even been released. If the OP doesn't want to wait or prefers Hornet, then fair enough, its his choice but give .17 WSM a chance as it could be a game changer if it lives up to its pre-release reputation.

 

Alsone's right about not slagging a new round until it's been properly vetted by "everyday users", and not just by a few people who most likely have a vested interest in giving a good review.

I've a friend who for years has done "freelance" type magazine reviews on new products for an unrelated hobby. He was honest enough, (to me anyhow!) about the way it works. At least for him anyhow.....

He said you can't slate a product as you won't be asked to do another, and/or won't get to either keep the item being reviewed, or receive some type of gratuity. He said you have to word it like, "could be improved"

I'd bet the ammo will be overpriced for the first year or 2 aswell. Just like the hmr was, to a degree. I can't see a round costing as little as 17-20 pence a shot like the .22 Hornet. And as you mention Al, i do reload and like reloading and gathering the data to. Just another facet of the hobby for me really. So in short i'm not interested in the new wsm. Although it's a shame it hasn't come out, or is imminent in the next few weeks, (perhaps it will??) for reasons of possible .22 Hornet owners trading their guns in and giving me more of a chance of bagging a bargin. Although i may buy new yet.........