Showing Working Dogs and Working Show Dogs

[BlueCoyote 0]

First let me say that i love dogs and i love dog history, as well as all history.... these are my three favourite things to talk about.... but i also like to talk about the future of dogs... but some people i know dont like what i have to say.... maybe its because i'm a little more harsh than them.. which is the way i was raised. i was raised on a horse farm, cattle farm, we hunted and fished and owned dogs.... i never had a naive outlook on life some people do today....

 

disclaimer over, now on to my questions.. and there are many! -

 

*****

OK i got into a debate yesterday in another dog forum about useless purebred working dogs, companion purebreds, and the ethics of breeding such dogs when there are already so many "companion dogs" wasting away in shelters. . someone else asked the question, i just added my opinion like everyone else.

....which wasnt very well received.....

 

Chows for example are now companion dogs.

So are great danes, and many other working dogs.. when i said that great danes and english bulldogs have been dumbed down to be pets people got REALLY offended.. maybe i should have used a different word than dumb... what i meant was... the gameness was bred OUT of them.... great danes WERE boar hounds... now they're not. English Bulldogs WERE fighting dogs... now they're not. neither one has a healthy lifespan nor are they able to function in harsh conditions like they used to.....

 

a lot of the people i was debating with thought that there was nothing wrong with breeding a dog for show prospects and then selling the puppies either for future show dogs or as house pets - beagles or border collies for instance. and some thought that there was nothing wrong with breeding ANY dog as long as you did it responsibly and found GOOD homes for all the puppies. so breeding labradoodles was A-OK with them as long as it wasnt for profit, and breeding for the "betterment of the breed" was also acceptable. but one man asked how is breeding a show standard english bulldog making the breed better when they are so unhealthy?

they had no answer except that SOME EBs are not unhealthy....

 

some of us said that when you breed a pure bred PET puppy you are taking away the potential home of a pound dog.

I also said that many show dogs only do just that.. they are SHOWN and thats all they do. many breeders wont sell you a puppy if you dont plan to show or compete with it.

Some breeders just breed their AKC dogs to produce puppies for buyers that MIGHT show them, or MIGHT compete with them. they dont really seem to care just as long as it isnt treated like a dog..

 

so.... i know some of you believe form follows function... i saw that written somewhere here in the forum when someone entered his hound in a lurcher and terrier show.

During this debate, when i said to look at a show bred Irish Setter standing next to a working Irish Setter you would certainly know which was which, and one of them would be labeled a mutt because it doesnt fit the standard.... they just got pissy.. though some knew exactly what i was talking about.

But what are your opinions on breeding a working breed JUST for showing and companionship?

i dont doubt that a working dog would make a great companion, i grew up with hunting dogs, boar dogs, squirrel dogs etc.

the dog i played with when i was a two year old was an American Bulldog who chased pigs during the day, but would lie beside me and lick my face at night.

But she wasnt brought home to be a pet. it was just lucky that she was gentle as a lamb with small children but also a great hunting dog.

 

next question:

For those of you that breed your hunting dogs, are you more old fashioned in that you actually DO cull the unwanted result of a breeding(if the dog grows up to be a dud or bite the hand that feeds him), or do you sell it as a pet to someone who only wants a pet?

 

And what do you think about the impact closed registries have had on purebred dogs today? closed meaning AKC, UKC, NKC etc.

 

And with the Crufts dog shows, how many of them have dogs in the show ring that are actual workers? i havent seen a crufts show in years... but what i remember was it was like AKC but with accents (sorry, but it was)

the dogs were all clean, trimmed, not a scar on anyones face that i could see.

 

 

ALSO what do you think about breed extinction?

a lot of breeds have become extinct because they lost their purpose or were casualties of war and other such events. for example, the Irish Wolfhound exists... in essence... but only because someone gathered up the remaining hounds and outcrossed Scottish Deer hound and Great Dane - so i have read about the breed in books- and once they had dogs breeding true to type they stopped outcrossing and then began LINE breeding. but today's IWH is lucky to live to seven years of age.. others die of bone cancer or some such. which leads me to another question.. should that breed have been allowed to go extinct instead of what is happening to it today? or can breeds really go extinct?

my belief is... if a dog is versatile and smart it wont go extinct. it will be able to be trained for something else, therefore proving it is worthy of being bred and passing on that resourcefulness.. like for instance my grandad trained an airedale terrier to point pheasants, hunt and track deer, turkey, squirrel, raccoon, you name it. he also trained a chihuahua to hunt and kill squirrels. and i know of another man that uses a Doberman to hunt quail.. he only did that just to prove he could! he even won a few competitions with his doberman bird dog.

But with the lurcher.... some are a mix of different breeds as well as with different sight hound breeds, correct? collies, pit bulls, saluki, grey hound, etc. So that leaves me with the question.... is the working IWH really extinct or did he manage to be crossed with other local dogs of the era and is still with us today, just not in a show standard?

 

BUT... in regards to that, is the true Irish Wolfhound REALLY extinct or are the ones being bred and shown today still functional? ....and i dont mean for lure coursing with plastic bags either. would you ever take one of today's show wolfhounds out to the field to hunt? have any of you done that?

i'm not putting the breed down, i love them, but i really want to know if there are still some left that arent dying of bone cancer, bloat, bad backs, elbow displaysia, and other funky diseases and do these dogs still hunt successfully?

 

And So, with extinction, do you think its just natural course of events that cant be helped, or should people be breeding dogs JUST for the sake of preserving history (like the IWH and English Bulldog)?

we already have perfectly good long dogs, i see many of them right here in this forum... right along with perfectly good bulldogs... personally i wouldnt take an english bulldog on a boar hunt anymore than i would take a knife to a gun fight.... and with pit bulls, american bulldogs, staffy bulls, etc... the english bulldog still lives on through its resourcefulness of being able to do other jobs - the unlucky ones in the showring are pet quality with pug outcrossing in order to "dumb them down" and remove gameness.. though i have met a couple of EBs that were still VERY tenacious.. but have been altered... no breeding for them because they are pets.

 

 

but i do love dogs, but i love working dogs the most. it breaks my heart to see some idiot buying a working dog but getting angry and not understanding why it rips his apartment to shreds so he gets rid of it at the local pound or has it put to sleep at the vet.. OR turns it loose in the street.

if i were to become a breeder of dogs tomorrow it would be for a true working breed and the dogs WOULD be either hunting or doing personal protection work(my two favourites), But if someone came asking for a pet i would give him directions to the nearest animal shelter....

 

i really think i am just a cruel hearted bitch..... i probably lost some friends there at the other forum because of my opinions.... but i couldnt help it. these people all own rescued dogs, or they breed sporting dogs for the show ring, or they own mixed breeds from the pound OR they bought their companion dogs from a breeder..

one guy owns a pharaoh hound that he does weekend lure coursing with (again chasing the plastic bag) but he says many of the dogs in Crufts are working AND show dogs....

so are they really?

i dont know about in the UK or Europe, but supposedly there is a pet overpopulation crisis here in the US, and i think it has more to do with breeders that are selling pet quality dogs to the ignorant public... honestly i dont believe there is much of an over population... the numbers just dont add up.. they say that so many hundreds of dogs are being put to sleep every day... but if there are that many being put to sleep then there would be no over population.... are people REALLY breeding dogs and getting rid of them that fast?!?!

 

maybe so... German Shepherds are a dime a dozen where i live. you cant throw a rock without hitting one.... and last weekend my cousin just got two AKC registered white shepherds for free because the breeder was getting out of the business and was going to give her a third one but two were the limit.

she plans to breed these shepherds with her other two shepherds (she already has male and female plus two puppies left to sell, 10 in the litter, three died, three she gave away and two she actually sold - these pups are 4 months old and the mom is being bred AGAIN...oops she said) she claims she breeds for good temperaments... but i think its hogwash. she also breeds chihuahuas, but i dont even want to talk about that..... she also claims she only breeds her dogs in winter to cut down on risk of parasites... but she "accidentally" bred this this spring.... you dont accidentally breed a male and female kept in the same kennel....

 

None of her dogs have papers, none have ever bitten a sleeve, lead the blind, guarded anything except their own food, but because they are pure bred(they arent really, theres a reason they arent AKC dogs) they deserve to be bred and sold. i think she breeds her dogs because she likes to give them away.... i almost laughed my ass off when she sold one puppy for 200 when she told me only hours before that she wouldnt sell for anything less than 250, but back when they were born she said she wouldnt sell for less than 350 and no family discounts!!! she told one guy "well.... i can let you have him for 200 because i think you'll take care of him" ... ok.. so he put the dog in a crate then put the crate in the trunk of his car and left the car so he could go shopping with his family i told her to wait till they were inside then take the dog out of the crate and take it back home with her... she said noooooo that wouldnt be right..

 

any way... my last question is....

what do you think about papers on dogs?

my opinion is the papers only keep track of who was born from and bred to who. they dont show any working ability. even if the parents and grand parents were jam up hunting dogs, doesnt mean the pups will be.

because i grew up with working hounds i have seen hard core scent hounds produce puppies that could care less about hunting once they were put on a scent... no need to mention what happened to them.

if i ever breed a dog it may or may not have official papers. i'll keep track myself, and get OFA tests for anyone that wants a puppy.

 

now i dont want to make enemies here too because i'm still kinda new....

i love dogs, i take care of mine, they're part of the family, but they arent pets. they have their jobs to do, which is to protect the family from criminals and wild animals - we live way out in the sticks along with bears, hogs, coyotes, bob cat, feral dogs and the occasional escaped convicted (theres a famous mental institution/prison not too far from here)

my dogs do their jobs very well, if they didnt i wouldnt see a point in keeping them. if i want a pet i will get a lap dog... i do have my eye on one already... just for inside the house... but he isnt costing me a dime. not paying a breeder, and he isnt from a rescue.... he belongs to someone who let him get hit by a car, didnt let a vet see to his broken leg, so he walks funny.. so now he is useless as a breeder

 

 

 

..wow... almost afraid to send this...

but i really doubt anyone has read this far.. if so... whats your opinion on the questions i asked? like i said before... i have my own, so what are yours?

when i posted my observations and opinions and things i had read myself no one really appreciated that.. they thought i was mean, callous, and coldhearted.... maybe i am, i dunno... and all because i said ... if a breed goes extinct its because he lost his job and wasnt resourceful enough to learn a new one... OR that no one was really interested anyway so who cares? ...there is an extinct breed called the Russian Lap dog.. looks like a poodle the size of a chihuahua.... became extinct in the mid 1800s.... so what?

[Ricky-N.p.p 0]

its well seen you like history.....thats like war and f*****g peace !

 

 

i'll go and read it now

[Guest bitsa lurcher]

for f**ks sake , i bet your fingers are sore or are you a slow typer ...... you seem to be targetting breeders most of all with your questions , my own personal points of view on breeding working dogs is this .....breed for your own use , if the mating is successfull and a high % of the litter or all the litter turn out to be workers then breed again , but before you breed at all i think one should prepare ones self to cull if you breed a load of shit and DO NOT breed that line again , also you need to prepare yourself to cull new born puppies in the event of a large litter , for example 14 even sized bull x puppies out of a first x bitch's first litter ...... that is NOT callous , but it is fair play on the litter to take out 4 , ............ i think also that each and every one of us has a different standard of what we want from our workers , as far as show dogs are concerned .....WHAT A WASTE OF sometimes GOOD WORKING STOCK .......... i personally DO NOT enter my dogs in shows ............i hope this helps answer a question or 2 for you ....

[hairybull 3]

Good post and good opinions.

Agree that so many people are breeding just because they are 'purebred' (because they were told they were- not because they have papers!!) or they're cute.

THey local stockfeed lady said to me the other day "I'm going to put that collie over there (stays at the yard) over my dog" I said what is your dog- she said a lab but she is really big and fat." Unfortunatley I offended her by replying with " what the f**k for? what is your aim in that" She said they'd be cute and fluffy. OMG both dogs were halfbred without a bit of intelligence between them.

Theres also a lot of collies and kelpies in this town- all driving everyone mad... and there isnt a sheep within 3 hrs driving!! But still people breed from the dog that digs holes, jumps fences, barks allday

[BlueCoyote 0]

lol yeah i got carried away on that i guess. but it really pissed me off with the whole "pure breds are better" or "its sad to let a breed go extinct, lets preserve history" mentality they all had..

 

lol i know a lot of you wouldnt want to read the whole thing so i just highlighted the questions i had

[Hob&Jill 258]

English bulldog are not fighting dogs Clues in the name...

[shepp 2,285]

What about the american pitBULL? Is that not a fighting dog then?

[Hob&Jill 258]

Im not a expert FAR from it lol, but they added the terrier for fighting? Bulldogs were bred for bull baiting, Bull terriers for fighting?

 

Edi>Sorry I was nick picking, shall let the thread go on and begger off lol...

Edited August 10, 2007 by Hob&Jill

[the patman 4]

First let me say that i love dogs and i love dog history, as well as all history.... these are my three favourite things to talk about.... but i also like to talk about the future of dogs... but some people i know dont like what i have to say.... maybe its because i'm a little more harsh than them.. which is the way i was raised. i was raised on a horse farm, cattle farm, we hunted and fished and owned dogs.... i never had a naive outlook on life some people do today....

 

disclaimer over, now on to my questions.. and there are many! -

 

*****

OK i got into a debate yesterday in another dog forum about useless purebred working dogs, companion purebreds, and the ethics of breeding such dogs when there are already so many "companion dogs" wasting away in shelters. . someone else asked the question, i just added my opinion like everyone else.

....which wasnt very well received.....

 

Chows for example are now companion dogs.

So are great danes, and many other working dogs.. when i said that great danes and english bulldogs have been dumbed down to be pets people got REALLY offended.. maybe i should have used a different word than dumb... what i meant was... the gameness was bred OUT of them.... great danes WERE boar hounds... now they're not. English Bulldogs WERE fighting dogs... now they're not. neither one has a healthy lifespan nor are they able to function in harsh conditions like they used to.....

 

a lot of the people i was debating with thought that there was nothing wrong with breeding a dog for show prospects and then selling the puppies either for future show dogs or as house pets - beagles or border collies for instance. and some thought that there was nothing wrong with breeding ANY dog as long as you did it responsibly and found GOOD homes for all the puppies. so breeding labradoodles was A-OK with them as long as it wasnt for profit, and breeding for the "betterment of the breed" was also acceptable. but one man asked how is breeding a show standard english bulldog making the breed better when they are so unhealthy?

they had no answer except that SOME EBs are not unhealthy....

 

some of us said that when you breed a pure bred PET puppy you are taking away the potential home of a pound dog.

I also said that many show dogs only do just that.. they are SHOWN and thats all they do. many breeders wont sell you a puppy if you dont plan to show or compete with it.

Some breeders just breed their AKC dogs to produce puppies for buyers that MIGHT show them, or MIGHT compete with them. they dont really seem to care just as long as it isnt treated like a dog..

 

so.... i know some of you believe form follows function... i saw that written somewhere here in the forum when someone entered his hound in a lurcher and terrier show.

During this debate, when i said to look at a show bred Irish Setter standing next to a working Irish Setter you would certainly know which was which, and one of them would be labeled a mutt because it doesnt fit the standard.... they just got pissy.. though some knew exactly what i was talking about.

But what are your opinions on breeding a working breed JUST for showing and companionship?

i dont doubt that a working dog would make a great companion, i grew up with hunting dogs, boar dogs, squirrel dogs etc.

the dog i played with when i was a two year old was an American Bulldog who chased pigs during the day, but would lie beside me and lick my face at night.

But she wasnt brought home to be a pet. it was just lucky that she was gentle as a lamb with small children but also a great hunting dog.

 

next question:

For those of you that breed your hunting dogs, are you more old fashioned in that you actually DO cull the unwanted result of a breeding(if the dog grows up to be a dud or bite the hand that feeds him), or do you sell it as a pet to someone who only wants a pet?

 

And what do you think about the impact closed registries have had on purebred dogs today? closed meaning AKC, UKC, NKC etc.

 

And with the Crufts dog shows, how many of them have dogs in the show ring that are actual workers? i havent seen a crufts show in years... but what i remember was it was like AKC but with accents (sorry, but it was)

the dogs were all clean, trimmed, not a scar on anyones face that i could see.

 

 

ALSO what do you think about breed extinction?

a lot of breeds have become extinct because they lost their purpose or were casualties of war and other such events. for example, the Irish Wolfhound exists... in essence... but only because someone gathered up the remaining hounds and outcrossed Scottish Deer hound and Great Dane - so i have read about the breed in books- and once they had dogs breeding true to type they stopped outcrossing and then began LINE breeding. but today's IWH is lucky to live to seven years of age.. others die of bone cancer or some such. which leads me to another question.. should that breed have been allowed to go extinct instead of what is happening to it today? or can breeds really go extinct?

my belief is... if a dog is versatile and smart it wont go extinct. it will be able to be trained for something else, therefore proving it is worthy of being bred and passing on that resourcefulness.. like for instance my grandad trained an airedale terrier to point pheasants, hunt and track deer, turkey, squirrel, raccoon, you name it. he also trained a chihuahua to hunt and kill squirrels. and i know of another man that uses a Doberman to hunt quail.. he only did that just to prove he could! he even won a few competitions with his doberman bird dog.

But with the lurcher.... some are a mix of different breeds as well as with different sight hound breeds, correct? collies, pit bulls, saluki, grey hound, etc. So that leaves me with the question.... is the working IWH really extinct or did he manage to be crossed with other local dogs of the era and is still with us today, just not in a show standard?

 

BUT... in regards to that, is the true Irish Wolfhound REALLY extinct or are the ones being bred and shown today still functional? ....and i dont mean for lure coursing with plastic bags either. would you ever take one of today's show wolfhounds out to the field to hunt? have any of you done that?

i'm not putting the breed down, i love them, but i really want to know if there are still some left that arent dying of bone cancer, bloat, bad backs, elbow displaysia, and other funky diseases and do these dogs still hunt successfully?

 

And So, with extinction, do you think its just natural course of events that cant be helped, or should people be breeding dogs JUST for the sake of preserving history (like the IWH and English Bulldog)?

we already have perfectly good long dogs, i see many of them right here in this forum... right along with perfectly good bulldogs... personally i wouldnt take an english bulldog on a boar hunt anymore than i would take a knife to a gun fight.... and with pit bulls, american bulldogs, staffy bulls, etc... the english bulldog still lives on through its resourcefulness of being able to do other jobs - the unlucky ones in the showring are pet quality with pug outcrossing in order to "dumb them down" and remove gameness.. though i have met a couple of EBs that were still VERY tenacious.. but have been altered... no breeding for them because they are pets.

 

 

but i do love dogs, but i love working dogs the most. it breaks my heart to see some idiot buying a working dog but getting angry and not understanding why it rips his apartment to shreds so he gets rid of it at the local pound or has it put to sleep at the vet.. OR turns it loose in the street.

if i were to become a breeder of dogs tomorrow it would be for a true working breed and the dogs WOULD be either hunting or doing personal protection work(my two favourites), But if someone came asking for a pet i would give him directions to the nearest animal shelter....

 

i really think i am just a cruel hearted bitch..... i probably lost some friends there at the other forum because of my opinions.... but i couldnt help it. these people all own rescued dogs, or they breed sporting dogs for the show ring, or they own mixed breeds from the pound OR they bought their companion dogs from a breeder..

one guy owns a pharaoh hound that he does weekend lure coursing with (again chasing the plastic bag) but he says many of the dogs in Crufts are working AND show dogs....

so are they really?

i dont know about in the UK or Europe, but supposedly there is a pet overpopulation crisis here in the US, and i think it has more to do with breeders that are selling pet quality dogs to the ignorant public... honestly i dont believe there is much of an over population... the numbers just dont add up.. they say that so many hundreds of dogs are being put to sleep every day... but if there are that many being put to sleep then there would be no over population.... are people REALLY breeding dogs and getting rid of them that fast?!?!

 

maybe so... German Shepherds are a dime a dozen where i live. you cant throw a rock without hitting one.... and last weekend my cousin just got two AKC registered white shepherds for free because the breeder was getting out of the business and was going to give her a third one but two were the limit.

she plans to breed these shepherds with her other two shepherds (she already has male and female plus two puppies left to sell, 10 in the litter, three died, three she gave away and two she actually sold - these pups are 4 months old and the mom is being bred AGAIN...oops she said) she claims she breeds for good temperaments... but i think its hogwash. she also breeds chihuahuas, but i dont even want to talk about that..... she also claims she only breeds her dogs in winter to cut down on risk of parasites... but she "accidentally" bred this this spring.... you dont accidentally breed a male and female kept in the same kennel....

 

None of her dogs have papers, none have ever bitten a sleeve, lead the blind, guarded anything except their own food, but because they are pure bred(they arent really, theres a reason they arent AKC dogs) they deserve to be bred and sold. i think she breeds her dogs because she likes to give them away.... i almost laughed my ass off when she sold one puppy for 200 when she told me only hours before that she wouldnt sell for anything less than 250, but back when they were born she said she wouldnt sell for less than 350 and no family discounts!!! she told one guy "well.... i can let you have him for 200 because i think you'll take care of him" ... ok.. so he put the dog in a crate then put the crate in the trunk of his car and left the car so he could go shopping with his family i told her to wait till they were inside then take the dog out of the crate and take it back home with her... she said noooooo that wouldnt be right..

 

any way... my last question is....

what do you think about papers on dogs?

my opinion is the papers only keep track of who was born from and bred to who. they dont show any working ability. even if the parents and grand parents were jam up hunting dogs, doesnt mean the pups will be.

because i grew up with working hounds i have seen hard core scent hounds produce puppies that could care less about hunting once they were put on a scent... no need to mention what happened to them.

if i ever breed a dog it may or may not have official papers. i'll keep track myself, and get OFA tests for anyone that wants a puppy.

 

now i dont want to make enemies here too because i'm still kinda new....

i love dogs, i take care of mine, they're part of the family, but they arent pets. they have their jobs to do, which is to protect the family from criminals and wild animals - we live way out in the sticks along with bears, hogs, coyotes, bob cat, feral dogs and the occasional escaped convicted (theres a famous mental institution/prison not too far from here)

my dogs do their jobs very well, if they didnt i wouldnt see a point in keeping them. if i want a pet i will get a lap dog... i do have my eye on one already... just for inside the house... but he isnt costing me a dime. not paying a breeder, and he isnt from a rescue.... he belongs to someone who let him get hit by a car, didnt let a vet see to his broken leg, so he walks funny.. so now he is useless as a breeder

 

 

 

..wow... almost afraid to send this...

but i really doubt anyone has read this far.. if so... whats your opinion on the questions i asked? like i said before... i have my own, so what are yours?

when i posted my observations and opinions and things i had read myself no one really appreciated that.. they thought i was mean, callous, and coldhearted.... maybe i am, i dunno... and all because i said ... if a breed goes extinct its because he lost his job and wasnt resourceful enough to learn a new one... OR that no one was really interested anyway so who cares? ...there is an extinct breed called the Russian Lap dog.. looks like a poodle the size of a chihuahua.... became extinct in the mid 1800s.... so what?

i have to agree with your last question just because a dogs got papers doesent make it a first class worker or show dog ive been around dogs all my life had various breeds spaniels rottweilers lurchers terriers german shepherds. the terriers ive got are all workers two come under the title pets that are in the house but are still good at there job the other two are just workers all are well bred but no papers the german shepherd i had was papered up but her jaw was over shot hence no good for showing however this didnt affect her ability as a guard dog and a loyal pet. i think alot of people over rate a dog and its ability just because it has a piece of paper.

[BlueCoyote 0]

Im not a expert FAR from it lol, but they added the terrier for fighting? Bulldogs were bred for bull baiting, Bull terriers for fighting?

 

 

right they had the bulldog, i think they came from Asia a long long long time ago with certain mastiff breeds, like roman era.

but as the butcher's dogs they had their job of holding the bull. i think i read somewhere it was actually a law that beef HAD to be baited because it improved the quality of the meat and made it more tender?

but by mixing terrier with bulldogs they had better rat dogs, fighting dogs, etc. the terrier i suppose made them more game and quicker?

its just weird how the british bulldogs has branched off into so many different directions..... some people say the American Bulldog is all thats left of the original English Bulldog, before the pug was added. because they came from England with settlers they were still used as cattle dogs.. they also didnt have terrier blooded (until recently anyway) where i live, in the south, we still have the old southern whites, these were the foundation stock that Johnson and Scott used when they decided to make the American Bulldog a registered breed..

[Tonymac 0]

Blue Coyote I come from the same Farming Background as you but in Australia.

 

I see where your coming from and agree.Blue,when I was a kid my Grandfather said to me that if I ever came home with a dog that could not work,he would kick my Ar-e!!!!.

 

Yes many Breeds have been dumbed down or nearly ruined due to being bred soley for the Showring and never worked or tested.Breeders carry on about Breed Standards but a breed Standard only goes some of the way.A breed Standard is basically only concerned with Appearance.A Breed Standard does not test or show has this Dog got a healthy level of Prey Drive and decent nerves.

 

I have Blue Heelers,Stumpy Tailed Cattledogs,Kelpies,some Crossbred Dogs and an American Bulldog.The Bulldog is a Scott x Johnson and works.Would not be any good to me if he did not work.

 

I have had discussions with breeders and some not all are missing the bigger picture.Many of course are in denial and stick the head in the sand and pretend all is well.One aspect probably not discussed openly by Breeders is the number of founding Dogs in some Breeds.Doing one"s research and checking Official records shows some breeds of Dogs all go back to a very small number of Dogs.For example one Breed of Dog has 60 Dogs that founded the Breed.So every single Dog of that breed goes back to one of those 60 Dogs.The Breed I am talking about was founded sometime back and time plus a small Genetic Pool sees a Deterioration in the Health of the Breed.

 

We have some sad Cases in Australia.We now have a Line of Kelpie that is useless!!!!What happened?Well the Kelpie is a well known Australian Dog for working Sheep and Cattle.Some of the showie mob saw them and thought,gee they are nice looking Dogs we must get one and Breed.These were People who lived in Town,had no Stock and no understanding of the Breeds Purpose.So these Mugs start Breeding soley for looks.Add a bit of time and what have you got?A Line of Works with little or no working ability left.These Dogs are now called Bench Kelpies and sitting on a Bench is about all they are good for!!!!Luckily for us there are still plenty of the true working Kelpie left.Thats just one example though of the harm the Showring mugs can do to a Breed. Tony

[skycat 6,173]

The following sad tale illustrates just how much a fashion or fad can help to destroy a working dog...........

 

I was talking to a friend the other day and he told me that his brother (who he thinks is off his trolley incidently) had just bought in (after much research and thought) 3 Nuttal type terriers: 3 bitches: dam and 2 daughters by different sires. He had no intention of working them but simply wanted to show and breed them as his 'research' had shown that they were a much sought after 'breed' and were selling for a lot of money!!

 

Needless to say he now has 3 unworked working bred terriers who have to live in 3 separate cages in his house (he doesn't believe in kenneling dogs) as he can't let them loose in the garden together or they start fighting with eachother being bored out of their feisty little minds. Oh hes, and they are never let off the lead and are walked in the park on lead: he lives in London!

 

Just another example of the stupidity of humans and its animals that are paying the price as usual. Let's just suppose he carries on: for a start he's going to be selling dogs to idiots in London who haven't a clue what a working terrier is all about, and just suppose he's still doing it years down the line then you'd expect the more docile less work orientated dog to be bred from and hey presto! we then have a black terrier with zero work instinct cos the pet market has demanded they are little robot pets and not real terriers.

[Tonymac 0]

Skycat,good post and sadly that scenario happens way too much. Tony