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If it was the only bitch available from a great line, Yes.

it is only a great line when tried + tested , to the max !

if there is a failure in the great line , you do not continue the blood-line with said failure !

well, that is my 2 cents worth !

Do you think there is such a thing as a great working blood line?

in short - yes !

a family of dogs that produces a high % of digging dogs/bitchs , litter after litter , generation after generation , is a great bloodline !

to me , but it some have different opinions on workers and ''digging'' !

unless you're doing them big sprawling spots regular , well.......

First your saying if there is a failure in the bloodline you do not continue. Though very few off all litters will work and if they do work they dont always work to a standard that may be asked off them. now your saying high percentages in bloodlines, but surely then there's a percentage off failure which conflicts with your first statement. If your breeding proven dogs and say you get 4/5 seasoned workers out off 7/8 pups in a litter you'd go again surely if needs be. I definitely wouldn't be saying it was a failure.

 

you are reading it wrong matey !

by failure , i mean the dog/bitch , not the family/bloodline.

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The best workers ain't always the best producers

Nothing in the breeding of working terriers should ever be "theoretical". It should always be down to hard work. This theory that the right genes are in place is one of the reasons that there's so mu

fat man, you could never of said some thing that I disagree with so much ! I will explain it in away that some new lads to the sport will understand, as those in the game for many a year will understa

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If it was the only bitch available from a great line, Yes.

it is only a great line when tried + tested , to the max !

if there is a failure in the great line , you do not continue the blood-line with said failure !

well, that is my 2 cents worth !

Do you think there is such a thing as a great working blood line?

in short - yes !

a family of dogs that produces a high % of digging dogs/bitchs , litter after litter , generation after generation , is a great bloodline !

to me , but it some have different opinions on workers and ''digging'' !

unless you're doing them big sprawling spots regular , well.......

First your saying if there is a failure in the bloodline you do not continue. Though very few off all litters will work and if they do work they dont always work to a standard that may be asked off them. now your saying high percentages in bloodlines, but surely then there's a percentage off failure which conflicts with your first statement. If your breeding proven dogs and say you get 4/5 seasoned workers out off 7/8 pups in a litter you'd go again surely if needs be. I definitely wouldn't be saying it was a failure.

you are reading it wrong matey !

by failure , i mean the dog/bitch , not the family/bloodline.

I apologise pal, it was that obvious I looked over that aspect.
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I personally would not breed of a non working bitch no matter what the lines were not that I breed very often anyway.If I was going to breed a bitch it would have to be well fit to finish a fox in the ground on a regular basis and also the stud dog would have to be of a similar standard,not everyone's cup of tea but that's the type I like and that's the standard I try to keep..

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I think to breed off a bitch or dog that hasn't made the grade regardless of the breeding goes against everything we strive for, and I don't like the 'oh but it's got all the right blood etc etc' because surely the blood can't be that good for it to leave you in a predicament to want to breed or even keep a dog that has spewed?? And also how many times in that dog's pedigree have other 'non workers' been bred off because 'the blood's right'?

I think NCooney is correct aswell saying to breed off the dog/ bitch out of a good working litter rather than an outstanding dog/bitch that was the only worker out of a litter. The higher proportion of workers in a litter the better IMO.

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No, and I'm a gambling man.

As a pup is growing up on my yard I spend a lot of time every day with it and always look at it with optimism and hope it will do it's parents proud.

I couldn't spend 14 or 16 months looking at a pup and say to myself "I know your mother was useless, but hopefully you'll turn out alright."

And even if the pup did make the grade the fact that a useless terrier was bred from it will crop up at some stage, even after a few generations.

This is one of the reasons I believe that to breed from a good, honest worker is not enough.

IMO the potential brood or stud has to have come from a good litter, ie. it's siblings were also good workers.

If , say, in a litter of six, five are useless but one of them makes a top class , brilliant working terrier.

Is that terrier a result of good breeding or a freak, a fluke ?

I bet plenty of lads would breed from such a terrier.

You must not get the chance to breed often with those ethics, good luck to you if you can. I agree with breeding from workers but to only breed from dogs that came from successful litters would be near on impossible for the majority of people.

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I think to breed off a bitch or dog that hasn't made the grade regardless of the breeding goes against everything we strive for, and I don't like the 'oh but it's got all the right blood etc etc' because surely the blood can't be that good for it to leave you in a predicament to want to breed or even keep a dog that has spewed?? And also how many times in that dog's pedigree have other 'non workers' been bred off because 'the blood's right'?

I think NCooney is correct aswell saying to breed off the dog/ bitch out of a good working litter rather than an outstanding dog/bitch that was the only worker out of a litter. The higher proportion of workers in a litter the better IMO.

every big name with a line in this country/ireland has had dogs that havent made the grade :yes: and i bet my left nutt sack that those that have failed have entered back in to the gene pool :yes: they all talk a good show-lol-How many of you on here can say 110% for sure theres no quitters in the dogs that you have?not unless you boys got a time machine will you ever know for certain :laugh: just keep telling yourselves your right-you might even get a chapter or 2 in 1 of these books on GREAT TERRIERMEN that keep jumping up everywhere-according to the likes of bluck and co-every town has a Great :whistling: ps not directed at you RH :thumbs:

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Genetics is a complicated subject, take Greyhounds the top racers winners of classics get put to the top brood bitches, not all produce, same with horses, yet you see top Greyhound brood bitches that produce open racers in all litters to to different Sires.

I know Irish breeders will breed from a bitch that say has to be retired from injury very early in its career, and has won nothing, as long as the bloodlines are good, and comes from a line of good dogs.

Excuse me for bringing in greyhounds to the subject, i realize this is a terrier discussion.

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I think to breed off a bitch or dog that hasn't made the grade regardless of the breeding goes against everything we strive for, and I don't like the 'oh but it's got all the right blood etc etc' because surely the blood can't be that good for it to leave you in a predicament to want to breed or even keep a dog that has spewed?? And also how many times in that dog's pedigree have other 'non workers' been bred off because 'the blood's right'?

I think NCooney is correct aswell saying to breed off the dog/ bitch out of a good working litter rather than an outstanding dog/bitch that was the only worker out of a litter. The higher proportion of workers in a litter the better IMO.

 

 

Totally agree withe the first paragraph :victory: However, the bit about about the higher proportion of workers in the second paragraph is all subjective as people have different standards. I'd rather have a pup out of a very good bitch that was the only one working from a litter than one from a half decent bitch with half decent siblings :yes:

As we all know, there's worker and there's workers :hmm:

 

Cheers, D.

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Genetics is a complicated subject, take Greyhounds the top racers winners of classics get put to the top brood bitches, not all produce, same with horses, yet you see top Greyhound brood bitches that produce open racers in all litters to to different Sires.

I know Irish breeders will breed from a bitch that say has to be retired from injury very early in its career, and has won nothing, as long as the bloodlines are good, and comes from a line of good dogs.

Excuse me for bringing in greyhounds to the subject, i realize this is a terrier discussion.

Some bitches come from proven lines.Not for racing but for producing.Some of these brood bitches will not have done much racing at all. You shouldnt apologise for bringing Greyhounds into it. We could all learn from people who have come from generations of Greyhound breeding. Producing terriers to work should in theory be easier than good greyhounds as good greyhounds have to be almost freakishly good to stand out from the crowd and they also have to beat 5 other dogs every time. Close breeding and line breeding is also practiced in greyhound breeding.

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Typical Stevens trick and most of folks who have his stuff and they wonder why the litters don't throw very well you might get away with it once or twice but keep doing it and you'll flood your line with shite bitches. Typical Stevens trick that worked for him but now it's being done again and again won't be long till they've got nothing left

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No, and I'm a gambling man.

As a pup is growing up on my yard I spend a lot of time every day with it and always look at it with optimism and hope it will do it's parents proud.

I couldn't spend 14 or 16 months looking at a pup and say to myself "I know your mother was useless, but hopefully you'll turn out alright."

And even if the pup did make the grade the fact that a useless terrier was bred from it will crop up at some stage, even after a few generations.

This is one of the reasons I believe that to breed from a good, honest worker is not enough.

IMO the potential brood or stud has to have come from a good litter, ie. it's siblings were also good workers.

If , say, in a litter of six, five are useless but one of them makes a top class , brilliant working terrier.

Is that terrier a result of good breeding or a freak, a fluke ?

I bet plenty of lads would breed from such a terrier.

why don't you answer your last two sentences of your post, instead of sitting on the fence.

 

You'll have to explain your question Dealer ?

It's very rarely I sit on the fence on any subject or opinion. Like I usually say, people who stand in the middle of the road usually get knocked down.

My post is fairly clear.

The showmen and bullshitters have ensured that the world is full of below par terriers.

Everyone (myself included) thinks they know how to breed a good one.

But what if only good terriers, from good litters (ie. the brothers and sisters were good too) out of good parents who were also out of good parents and so forth were bred and then entered by good terriermen and the pups were then put only into the hands of terriermen who'll do them justice (for nothing, of course) were the only terriers being bred ???

But that's never going to happen as the terrier game is full of bullshitters with theories and double standards as well as the money men with their big bullshit macho images.

Just my honest opinion.

Edited by neil cooney
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Typical Stevens trick and most of folks who have his stuff and they wonder why the litters don't throw very well you might get away with it once or twice but keep doing it and you'll flood your line with shite bitches. Typical Stevens trick that worked for him but now it's being done again and again won't be long till they've got nothing left

and no one elses stuff is good enough for them-leave em too it i say ;) soon enough they wont be able to give them away :icon_redface: truth always comes out in the end :yes: thats why i believe all these dogs get stolen to perk up certain lines :whistling: stevens was by no means the first and will not be the last-enjoying this thread lads :thumbs: atb

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Typical Stevens trick and most of folks who have his stuff and they wonder why the litters don't throw very well you might get away with it once or twice but keep doing it and you'll flood your line with shite bitches. Typical Stevens trick that worked for him but now it's being done again and again won't be long till they've got nothing left

I agree It shouldn't be done again and again, but when your backs against the wall it maybe the right thing/only thing to do. :victory:

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