Spring Spaniel Problem

[eddie3 9]

hi friend, do you have a local park with a fenced in tennis court or five side pitch ? that you could use on the quiet, early morning or late in the day.

[camokev64 36]

Hi,

i have an English Springer Spaniel bitch who is about 1 and a half years old. I used to train her regularly , (walking to heal, recall, retrieving etc), however since she turned about 9 months old i cannot have her off the lead, as soon as she is let off of the lead she will run off and will not stop, she will not even stop and turn her head when I give the recall. where I live we have a few small woodlands and I find that when she runs off she will bolt straight to them and start to hunt them and go from one the the next. The only way I ever get her back is if i manage to intercept her and stop her physically because as you can probably guess she is quite a bit faster than a person. Obviously she has a VERY good hunting instinct but I cannot seem to be able to channel it into making her do what i want her to do via training, which is almost impossible when she just runs of when the lead is taken off. I have considered taking her to a professional dog trainer but havent really got the money, I have also heard about electric collars, but have heard that they are not very effective? Help would be much appreciated, thanks.

Hunter 1103,

Just let me have a rant before i answer your plight ! WHAT ARE ALL THE PROBLEM SOLVING GUNDOG TRAINERS GOING TO DO WHEN THE COLLARS ARE BANNED ! " WELL ONE THING IS FOR CERTAIN I HOPE IT RIDS OUR SPORT OF A LOT OF CHANCERS".now thats better..

Hunter 1103,

If i am right in thinking you have trained this dog from a pup until it`s introduction to the shooting field.The shooting game has clicked in it`s head and it`s having a whale of a time,albeit out of control.This is no fault of the dogs !."Dogs will only get away with what you let them" and the more you do the more they oblige..If you have the dedication,you will "A" become very fit and "B" have a dog that wants to do things for you..

Electric collars and treats means the dog only responds to severe pain and the reward,it does`nt respond to YOUR actions..

SO back to basic`s like Philluk has endorsed,and walk the dog back every single time on the lead to the exact point you commanded your dog to respond.. Dedication Dedication thats what you need

[Philluk 181]

Electric training collar, get it responding, and taking notice, it needs to know disobedience doesn't go unpunished, I don't mean zap it to hell either use it for the purpose you require as soon as you get it responding, concentrate on the basics, master the recall, forget the other stuff that can come later. at 9mth you have plenty of time to correct any other issues.The dog needs to know you are in charge, all the long leads in the world wont correct the problem you have, sorry but its true, this dog is borderline lost it. Remember use it wisely, and it does work.

Oh and if all else fails do what a lot of people do sell it as a pet and let someone else have the problem "NOT" ring any bells lol.

Grez

Excuse my French but what a load of shlt, follow this and you will have a hard fight and a hard dog at the end, there is no gain through pain, remember the goal, a dog is sent off for a shot bird, he needs to use his nose, find, then return ,come to you happy that he has done his job, hand you the game and sit in front of you and wait to be told he is good. Do you think a dog that has been trained by any other means will do this???

[bunson 6]

well Cam, you had a rant and to be honest I'm sure a lot of people agree, anyway I don't want to spoil what is a genuine question the lad is asking, and hes asking for help, he didn't say don't mention collars right. next, THEY WONT BE BANNED,, also its not severe pain you've obviously never used or had one, a correction can be done by a beep or a vibration, Next how many dogs to you think have either been put down or handed around because a problem like this cannot be cured thousands, now here's the point the collar works 100% where sometimes tried and tested methods haven't, keep up with the times my friend, I am not knocking anybodies suggestions all I'm doing is offering a form of correction what was being asked. I have trained springers for a number of years so hopefully know a thing or two, I'm not perfect in anyway but when I see something that works without giving the dog a boot or a whack with a lead or even worse, and please correct me if I'm wrong a boot etc bloody hurts more than a quick beep or vibration or a very least a mild shock and when you do it personally weeks of work of trust are undone, the dog never knows its you with a collar. I say do it. I agree with getting back to the begining but the methods and advice outthere for a novice trainer with a pup is hardwork. I suggest some of the experts in this forum ought to take the lads dog and correct it for him if you live near enough, if anyone does it I promise not to use a collar again, well at least until there banned....

Grez

[camokev64 36]

Not banned,they are in Wales,but have you re=wrote their law !,and it`s only a matter of time when it is rolled out in the rest of the country,so i await your apology,not.

Electric collars are the lazy, defeatist way of installing fundamental basic obedience in a dog later in it`s life,If you can`t install the fundamental basic`s in a dog through time proven training methods then,keep it on a lead....Move with the times " Give your head a shake "....

[bunson 6]

Kev, mate wind your neck in,and believe me I'm shaking my head!!! this is not about me and you arguing this lad is after different opinions and advice I gave mine you gave yours, now let the lad make his mind up, the debate will go and on. I can totally agree that traditional methods are the correct way to go, I train with them day in day out, however this instance would suit the collar for the correction. I am not saying train the dog with the collar, correct this issue and revert back, as regards making the dog hard etc what a load of poo. Anyway thats my call I will stick with it and not get in any further with the hype, good luck to the lad what ever method he takes.

Grez

[bunson 6]

Hee hee, So unless I'm mistaken everybody trains perfectly and absolutely nobody as give their dog a whack with lead or lost there temper and done something similar, Listen I've seen top trainers in the country do it at trials as well. I'm not saying do it for god sake, I said it happens, I wonder how many are reading this and thinking, god yes I've done it,,

[camokev64 36]

Hee hee, So unless I'm mistaken everybody trains perfectly and absolutely nobody as give their dog a whack with lead or lost there temper and done something similar, Listen I've seen top trainers in the country do it at trials as well. I'm not saying do it for god sake, I said it happens, I wonder how many are reading this and thinking, god yes I've done it,,

Well, i`ve certainly not seen dogs reprimanded at trials,and they would certainly be getting told,in my company.As for booting dogs round the field " well we all have seen pictures of this spread across the daily papers showing what injury it does to people" let alone a dog.

You ain`t convinced me with your collar,Oh and what about that ban !!!,would you like to comment further.....

[bunson 6]

Kev, I wont convince you about the collar its not my intention, the collar sure, I've not re written the law or even attempted to alter the statute books, but trust me in England they will not be banned, and the reason, they are not seen as acts of cruelty if used correctly check the debates, also with whats been happening in the press lately about dangerous dogs it may work the other way people may be advised to put them on dogs they feel could be a threat. Oh and yes, in certain areas of the uk they are used by people who train these dogs for more than you'd expect, Plod....

Anyway again I cant really be arsed with the debates Kev these are my opinions, but if and when its banned drop me a line and I will publicly apologize to you.

but in the meantime keep an open mind.

Keep hunting mate, its what its all about in the end, I live and work my 12000acres of land 7days a week with 3 springers a lurcher and a GWP. and I love it..

Farmer Grez

[skycat 6,173]

I agree with bunson on this, but I wouldn't just go out and buy a shock collar and start using it without first going to a really good trainer who can show you how to work it correctly. In the right hands they are a superb tool, but in the wrong hands, or inexperienced hands they can make things a lot worse.

 

Forget treats: no treat that you can give the dog will equal the reward it is getting for hunting for itself.

 

Quite often, when a teenage pup rebels quite so strongly as yours is doing, it is because the owner has done too much heavy training early on. The pup, as its prey drive kicks in big time, says 'sod you' and goes and does its own thing. What you should have done, and can still do, is work WITH the prey drive. Focus on rewarding the dog by using its natural instincts. I know that tug play and training is still considered a big no-no in gun dog circles because they think it will make a dog hard mouthed, but this really isn't the case.

I've yet to meet a higher drive dog than my Airedale was at this age, and her daughter's the same. They were both trained using the tug play method, and neither are hard mouthed when retrieving game ... and they are terriers! So no, it doesn't make them hard mouthed at all.

[brucemyster 75]

well this topic has certainly got thing s going, as I have said earlier I use a collar for correction as the dog had a tendency to disappear into the distance, probably my fault for not getting into training him earlier but he had been through 3 pairs of hands before we got him, even though he was only between 7 and 9 months old. I don't shock him now as there is no need, although I did feel the need to do so before, but every now and then he gets beeped when he forgets himself. I don't use the collar when he's retrieving as this was A. never a problem that requires in my view any physical correction just encouragement and B. something that comes with practice. I wouldn't say I'm a lazy person, perhaps a little inexperienced and as I said before worked when I had tried everything else which I had gleaned from people who had experience with dogs and from the internet. If used correctly I personally believe these collars are a useful tool and don't have to be used solely to shock the dog, they also don't need to be set on the highest setting just enough to give a quick nip and should never be used to shock continuously or in anger. Also as mentioned before by others I have witnessed much worse than this in the name of correction/training although I don't use this to justify my personal use of the remote collar, horses for courses I say and that's the point of forums and debate, to give your own view and let those who need advice decide for themselves. For those who don't agree that's your right and if you had the time and skills to correct the problem I myself could not with out the use of the collar on my particular dog then I bow to you and acknowledge you expertise where I was lacking.

happy days

[Philluk 181]

One of my dogs is a 15 month ESS and she is dummy dummy dummy, sit stay mean nothing when you throw a dummy, yes she is secondhand, yes she is head strong, yes she pulls on a lead, will I inflict pain? No. Will I hit her? No, I will take my time very quietly in a field for 10 mins twice a day and we will get there and if I feel like screaming I will make her do something right and call it a day.

What I loved today was my superstar working cocker had dirty eyes as he walked towards me and I bent over put my hand out to clean his eyes, as I offered my hands up to his eyes he didn't flinch at bit, no closed eyes it was lovely pure trust no worries.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Philluk

[Philluk 181]

Interesting reading:-

 

Schilder and colleagues (2004) compared the behaviour of dogs trained using shock

collars with a control group of dogs, during both free walking in a park and training

sessions. They found that in both situations the dogs previously trained using shock

collars showed more behaviours associated with stress than dogs trained in similar

way, but without shock collars. They concluded that the dogs associated the presence

of the handler with the aversive shock, as they were showing fearful behaviour even

when free walked in a different context.

 

Is the application of a shock stressful to the dog?

There is little doubt that high intensity electrical stimulation causes a physiological

stress response in dogs (Schalke, 2005). Application of initial high intensity shocks

has also been found to elicit behavioural responses associated with fear and distress in

the dog, including yelping, struggling, biting, freezing, withdrawal, hiding, running to

the owner, cowering, trembling, defecation and urination (Tortora, 1982a). Whilst the

stress response is a normal/adaptive physiological response that allows an animal to

cope with changes in its environment, this can be detrimental where the animal cannot

predict and control the situation, for example if the dog being trained is unable to

learn how to avoid the shock.

 

Whilst studying the effects of inescapable shock on active avoidance learning in dogs,

Martin Seligman discovered that if dogs were repeatedly unable to control/avoid

shocks, they exhibited learned helplessness and were subsequently unable to learn an

avoidance response (passively accepted shock), even when given the opportunity to

escape.

 

One of the main concerns about the use of shock collars is that they may cause the

recipient to become fearful and/or anxious, resulting in a long term threat to the dog’s

welfare. Schilder and van der Borg (2004), for example, looked at body posture

indicators of emotional state in a group of guarding dogs trained with an electronic

collar in comparison with the same measure in a group trained without such a device.

The dogs trained with the electronic device were found to show behavioural signs

associated with fear and pain (Beerda, 1997), both during training and some time

afterwards, both within the training context and outside of the training situation with

the trainer. The dogs appear to become anxious in those situations which might

predict a shock, with reports of reactions shown over a year after training took place

(Schilder, 2004). These findings suggest possible implications for the long-term

welfare of the dog.

 

Are shock collars effective training devices?

There has been very little scientific research examining the effectiveness of using

electrical stimulation in the training of pet dogs. Shock collars have reportedly been

used to suppress predatory behaviour with some success. In a study of hunting dogs,

for example, aversive conditioning with a shock collar was found to reduce the

probability of dogs chasing or attacking domestic sheep, without any apparent adverse

effects (Christiansen et al. 2001). However whether this effect was generalised to all

contexts in which sheep were encountered is unclear.

 

will look forward to the replies to this:

[bunson 6]

Its definatley an interesting read, and yes a lot of points are viable and worth stating, however like everything else that's had surveys and tests done with peoples opinions don't always make it correct. I WILL KEEP SAYING,,, IF USED CORRECTLY AND AS A TOOL FOR CORRECTION ITS A VALUABLE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.. I don't believe it should be used for all levels of training, for the basics and advanced sessions, Its all about how and when to use, i feel I can use it correctly and I have never had a nervous dog or a dog look at me waiting for a shock or even peeing itself, you make it sound like we don't care about the welfare of our dogs, well I never miss a worming or flea programme I update jabs and booster every year religously do you? mine live in heated kennels and all are fully insured. if you don't well that's bloody cruelty. these tests have been done under what conditions and with what dogs in particular, look I'm not personally going to ever change my opinion i think they work and work well in the right circumstances, and to be honest I don't really adhere to the tests,

I know this is going of at a tangent but do you remember the RSPCA saying foxes get stressed being chased by hounds, love to know how they tested and found that out hey. anyway they got it banned and look at the s*** its causing now. It'll come back, These collars have saved plenty of dogs lives and kept them with one home rather than being banded around.

I just don't want something banning because people don't understand it, if they gave it a open vote tomorrow of course they would ban it because the non understanders and dozy fart do gooders don't like the thought of a sweet little thing getting a telling off, electrically or a boot.

"Oh look at that beautiful little fox on the photo"!!!!

Grez

[brucemyster 75]

Interesting read that philuk, and good job for finding the relevant studies and posting it too strengthen your side of the debate.

 

Just to keep it ticking along

 

Would you say that a dog which has to be kept on a lead is happier than a dog which has been trained with a collar and can now run about under the control of the handler(not being shocked)?

 

I'm not taking into account whether the dog could have been trained without the use of a collar, just if the dog is happier.

 

I would say with personal experience that my dog is much happier running about after being trained not to clear off by using a shock collar,loves me just as much if not more, does not flinch when handled and is now safe to take rough shooting. He is happy to put on his collar and does not resist in any way shape or form. He no longer or very rarely needs to be shocked and his life is much more enjoyable as is my enjoyment of him and taking him out.

I'm not dis-regarding the studies, although having read a million studies (could be a slight over exaggeration on my part) on childcare and psychology at degree level, there's always one to counter the studies of others and they change their views like the wind, all I'm stating is that my personal experience with this particular dog a shock collar has done the job, I have had various dogs over the years and have not had occasion to use a collar before and if in the future I get another dog it will not mean that I will automatically start training with a shock collar.