Pcp Can You Use An Ordinary Divers Bottle Or Does It Have To Be One Addapted For Airguns

[Skot Ruthless Teale 1,701]

i had a 3L 300bar lightweight divers bottle when i had my s410k and with clocks and stuff and test i paid about £120 i think, duno how much it would cost these days tho!

[secretagentmole 1,701]

whats the big 'hear we go again' in aid of?

i said nothing about the gauges and stuff did i?? or about how often they need testing..

 

i just sad 'surface only' bottle MIGHT be cheaper

Surface only is not cheaper! In fact a "dedicated" gun bottle is more expensive than a diving cylinder! Because the gauge is an integral part of the valve! This question gets asked very often and would have come up with a raft of answers if you had googled it. I put here we go again because I answer this question so much I have pictures of the various valve types on my pc so you can see the difference between the two! It was also supposed to be read as a bit of fun in the reply! Don't read too much into the here we go again bit!

 

 

 

 

sorry mate, my appologies, i read it wrong, thought you were getting eggy with me, not just at the question..

 

whats best then, .177 or .22 ?? :laugh:

By most accounts .20!!!!

 

[Rabid 1,936]

Just to hijack this a little, (hopefully it ma also help the op) why does everyone say get the 300 bar bottle, I have a 232 and have used it for years on my superten with no problem, is it just the fact you don't get as many fills and not getting full pressure every time ? Or something more sinister .

 

Rob.

[secretagentmole 1,701]

Value for money, if buying new a 300 is not much more than a 232. If using a Super 10 you need a big 232 (I know, we did). A 3 litre will not do many fills at all!

[Rabid 1,936]

Value for money, if buying new a 300 is not much more than a 232. If using a Super 10 you need a big 232 (I know, we did). A 3 litre will not do many fills at all!

Thanks for that, it's a 12ltr bottle. I have been looking at getting a 300bar, but they are rude amounts of money so may stick with what I have now.

[DIVERD 34]

All the cylinders are the same, they have the same BS number (steel or alloy) and as such are the same regardless of the valve. If a cylinder can be used underwater then it can be subjected to the more regular scuba testing schedule. if it has surface use only marked on it, then the filling center can happily fill them subject to the surface only testing regulations or can choose to not fill them if not satisfied that it is safe to do so. The gauge will help with this, but unless the testing requirements have changed since i owned a scuba center a coupe of years ago, then the gauge on the valve only shows that it is in general surface use. The filling station can refuse to fill any cylinder if not satisfied that it is safe to do so. I found that a good clean non rusty cylinder, with surface use only stencilled onto it, or a cylinder with a valve that has a gauge on it that floods in water clearly shows it is a surface cylinder and can be filled beyond the scuba cylinder testing regimen. However if either goes bang the results are exactly the same, as they are made and tested to the same standard, the difference being that a cylinder used underwater may corrode more rapidly and if a cylinder is emptied underwater it will corrode internally very rapidly. However, one wet fill will do exactly the same.

 

The larger the cylinder volume and the higher pressure it is at clearly the more fills you will get. A 12ltr 232 bar cylinder when full will only have 12 liters at 232 bar,12 at 231 bars and so on. The higher pressure and volume the more fills above 180 - 200 bars you will get, and the most efficient way to use pressure is to have more than one cylinder, with one used to bring the pressure up to say 150 bar and the other used to boost the pressure right up, swapping them over for filling as the high pressure one drops to say 170 bar, but this is expensive, or work with a pal, and fill them alternately.

[secretagentmole 1,701]

 

Value for money, if buying new a 300 is not much more than a 232. If using a Super 10 you need a big 232 (I know, we did). A 3 litre will not do many fills at all!

Thanks for that, it's a 12ltr bottle. I have been looking at getting a 300bar, but they are rude amounts of money so may stick with what I have now.

 

About the best place to buy one from is http://www.underwaterworld.co.uk/acatalog/Airgun_Charging_Systems.html, they are about the cheapest out there!

[robwelsh 354]

All airgun dive bottles have 5 year test. An I still had two years left of that,meaning it hadn't had its first test. And I didn say they were "proofed" I said you have to prove its for airgun use if its not dedicated airgun bottle. Which u do.

[secretagentmole 1,701]

No you do not, valve type proves use, ie if it is fitted with this type of valve...

It can be used for diving, so it has to follow the five year hydro followed by two and a half year visual inspection test cycle.

 

If it is fitted with this type of valve...

It is surface use only and follows the five year hydro test cycle!

 

That is all the proof you need...

[DIVERD 34]

Sorry, but not strictly true, it is the cylinder that is hydro tested, not the valve, though you are right, with these valves fitted most filling centres would probably happily accept this. A picky centre could apply the cylinders test regimen to it, as the valve is irrelevant to BS 5045/1 or 3 (from memory) as this is what is actually hydro tested, so a valve could be swapped in seconds if one felt devious. This has been superseded and i am not as familiar with the very newest IDEST regs. To further confuse things the top cylinder is an alloy one and the lower is a steel one, depending on the spec they also have different test regimens. If for instance a cylinder has the surface valve but has been tested as a scuba cylinder for all its life, then it would be wrong to test as surface use only just because the valve has been changed. If that was the case i could have a cylinder dive yesterday, change the valve today to a gauged one and extend its test, even though it is full of rust.

 

Of course this is being very picky, and most centres will fill a cylinder under the surface testing regimen if this is what it to be used for, but i would not rely on this, as an idest centre would not take this as the proof that it is surface use only, and they would go by the legally required cylinder neck stamp of testing standard and last test date.

 

Having seen a cylinder burst this is not a risk i would take for a couple of hundred pounds and just stay safe.

[robwelsh 354]

This forum is starting to pi.ss me off.... just because YOUR shop says its fine, whats to say mine or anyone else isnt different?

[secretagentmole 1,701]

Because they should all be tested to the same regulations, regulations that are supposed to be the same between shops! The valve type does determine test and yes, you can swap a divers valve for a surface use valve and have the surface testing cycle applied!

Edited March 19, 2013 by secretagentmole

[secretagentmole 1,701]

Not only that a surface use bottle can be used for other purposes, like inflating boats, use in breathing apparatus (as in respirator type equipment used by the fire brigade), so how are you going to proof that? Turn up with a ruddy boat or a fecking great fire engine?

[DIVERD 34]

The cylinder and valve do not share a serial number, they are separate units and can and are changed, but the cylinder is stamped with a serial number and the bs standard it is tested to, in steel case BS 5045 /1 and in the case of alloy bs5045 / 3. In most cases the cylinder and valve are made in different companies, the pictures are of MDE valves and the steel cylinder is probably a faber, dont know the alloy one. Cylinders are stamped at test, valves are not. The cylinder is hydraulically tested, the valve is not. it does not even need a valve to pass the hydro test.

 

If it is surface use you can use it for any surface purpose you want, so filling a boat is fine should you want to. Take your boat if it makes you happy, but it is the stamp on the cylinder that will count, and not the valve fitted. Ruddy great fire engines have surface use ba cylinders that do not have a gauge attached, it is a simple DIN valve, which rather blows away the argument that all surface cylinders have an attached gauge. Oxygen, helium and argon surface use cylinders do not have wee gauges fitted. Equally, spareair cylinders, for emergency use underwater have a submersible gauge attached to the cylinder valve.

 

However, it matters not a jot if you believe me or not, just google BS 5430 - the standard for the testing regimen, BS 5045, the standard they are manufactured to and which sets the testing time scales or IDEST, the independent set up for testing dive equipment. This is the standards that scuba shops work to and what a diver would expect to see when filling a cylinder. A few years ago, before scuba shops knew of the surface standards all cylinders required the same testing regimen, and if you wanted the cylinder filled then you got it tested. Now, because so many air gunners and paint ballers use scuba cylinders most shops know the standard. if you get the cylinder filled at a fire station or gas company, they will work to the surface standards.

 

I know the standards well, and the valve does not determine the test requirements. If in doubt check BS 5430 or BS 1968, the latest standard. However, i am not to proud to admit if i am wrong, and if you can show me any standard that says the valve determines the test i will happily admit i am wrong. happy googling - it may take you a while!

[cooper999 1]

Cheers for all the help I would have googled it but I thought best to ask people who would know 100%

 

 

Thanks again