Elmer_Fudd 28 Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 No I see your point just though I would poss the debate see what people would feel, say and over all conclude. I guess its like having a low end rifle if you could have a top end rifle, many would go for the top end it human nature i guess. well i see the point of the trajectory, guess you are most likly right. ATB Gaz Quote Link to post
pianoman 3,587 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Just musing on Adam's comment here. There are a number of fallacies and mis-conceptions with FAC air rifle shooting/hunting as a whole. The extra power of FAC tuning should NEVER be taken as a means of ad-hoc extra range. It is a complete mistake to believe this is a means of increased- accurate shooting to longer, 50-metres-plus ranges with ease. It amazes me how many lads get their ticket to shoot at higher power yet do little to improve their personal accuracy standards to take advantage of possible extended ranges! The whole harmonics and trajectories of pellets changes and these have to be re-learned. I've heard of some guys who find their once-trusted rifle has become an unmanageable dog to shoot with and regret having gone through the tap-dance of getting an FAC and tuning it up. With an FAC spring rifle you will have greater recoil to address and manage and believe me, it takes some coming to terms with. You may even have to change your pellet brand/weight Whichever action you shoot with .22 FAC at around 20 ft/lbs is not much different to sub-12ft/lbs .177 or, put another way, to shoot and impart .22 with the same performance velocity and flatter trajectory standards of sub-12ft/lb .177 you would need to tune-up the power of the .22 rifle and put it on ticket! The best I can say for it, is that, at usual 25-45 yards/metre hunting ranges, it gets the pellet to the head of a rabbit faster than the animal can usually react..usually, but by no means always. As the vid shows, it is not guaranteed to kill humanely with a less than accurate strike. I love my FAC HW80 .22 but, only after I went through a transforming period to relearn to shoot with it. But, for the foreseeable future, it will be my only FAC rifle and I'm not certain I would tune up another. I sold my FAC TX200 to fund my HW97KT .177. It is ACCURACY alone where the real power test of your rifle lies. And your fieldcraft to get you within effective, accurate striking range of your quarry. To your personal standards of competence. That is what our sport is really about. Not how far you can lob a pellet, but where you hit with it! Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam Pianoman 2 Quote Link to post
Roy64 3 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Taken with a pinch of salt, but otherwise a good video albeit edited heavily or am I mistaken? Print screen pic when rabbits first seen (8-43)and compare with print screen pic when stalk finished (9-58) neither rabbits position has moved by one inch in my estimation. My question is at what range was the shot taken? Quote Link to post
j j m 6,555 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Looks ok to me Quote Link to post
AR177 588 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Just musing on Adam's comment here. There are a number of fallacies and mis-conceptions with FAC air rifle shooting/hunting as a whole. The extra power of FAC tuning should NEVER be taken as a means of ad-hoc extra range. It is a complete mistake to believe this is a means of increased- accurate shooting to longer, 50-metres-plus ranges with ease. It amazes me how many lads get their ticket to shoot at higher power yet do little to improve their personal accuracy standards to take advantage of possible extended ranges! The whole harmonics and trajectories of pellets changes and these have to be re-learned. I've heard of some guys who find their once-trusted rifle has become an unmanageable dog to shoot with and regret having gone through the tap-dance of getting an FAC and tuning it up. With an FAC spring rifle you will have greater recoil to address and manage and believe me, it takes some coming to terms with. You may even have to change your pellet brand/weight Whichever action you shoot with .22 FAC at around 20 ft/lbs is not much different to sub-12ft/lbs .177 or, put another way, to shoot and impart .22 with the same performance velocity and flatter trajectory standards of sub-12ft/lb .177 you would need to tune-up the power of the .22 rifle and put it on ticket! The best I can say for it, is that, at usual 25-45 yards/metre hunting ranges, it gets the pellet to the head of a rabbit faster than the animal can usually react..usually, but by no means always. As the vid shows, it is not guaranteed to kill humanely with a less than accurate strike. I love my FAC HW80 .22 but, only after I went through a transforming period to relearn to shoot with it. But, for the foreseeable future, it will be my only FAC rifle and I'm not certain I would tune up another. I sold my FAC TX200 to fund my HW97KT .177. It is ACCURACY alone where the real power test of your rifle lies. And your fieldcraft to get you within effective, accurate striking range of your quarry. To your personal standards of competence. That is what our sport is really about. Not how far you can lob a pellet, but where you hit with it! Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam Pianoman So maybe i should have said yes you can make longer shots with it.. if you can make the shot I agree with your very wise words though Simon accuracy is the key ATB Adam 1 Quote Link to post
Daz 7 563 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam I'm the Opposite Adam Both My Rapids are sub 12 ft/lbs and that's the way they are staying as they both shoot so sweet for Hunting Rifles, And i have no Qualms about using them on the THL HFT Shoots or in their natural hunting environment. As Pianoman as stated it's Accuracy over power everytime and also good Field Craft as We know bud atvb Daz 7. Quote Link to post
AR177 588 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam I'm the Opposite Adam Both My Rapids are sub 12 ft/lbs and that's the way they are staying as they both shoot so sweet for Hunting Rifles, And i have no Qualms about using them on the THL HFT Shoots or in their natural hunting environment. As Pianoman as stated it's Accuracy over power everytime and also good Field Craft as We know bud atvb Daz 7. Only because you cant see past 50yrds Daz Hope all is well mate ATB Adam Quote Link to post
Daz 7 563 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam I'm the Opposite Adam Both My Rapids are sub 12 ft/lbs and that's the way they are staying as they both shoot so sweet for Hunting Rifles, And i have no Qualms about using them on the THL HFT Shoots or in their natural hunting environment. As Pianoman as stated it's Accuracy over power everytime and also good Field Craft as We know bud atvb Daz 7. Only because you cant see past 50yrds Daz Hope all is well mate ATB Adam Don't need to with the Falcon Scopes i just Nail them at all ranges :tongue2: I'm Fine You Young Whipper Snapper have more Respect for Your Elders atvb Daz 7. 1 Quote Link to post
AR177 588 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam I'm the Opposite Adam Both My Rapids are sub 12 ft/lbs and that's the way they are staying as they both shoot so sweet for Hunting Rifles, And i have no Qualms about using them on the THL HFT Shoots or in their natural hunting environment. As Pianoman as stated it's Accuracy over power everytime and also good Field Craft as We know bud atvb Daz 7. Only because you cant see past 50yrds Daz Hope all is well mate ATB Adam Don't need to with the Falcon Scopes i just Nail them at all ranges :tongue2: I'm Fine You Young Whipper Snapper have more Respect for Your Elders atvb Daz 7. Taken a leaf from your book and got a Falcon Menace FFP 5.5-25 x 50 mate, if it will fit ill slap it on the 97k for the next meet or maybe even the gaystate! ATB Adam Quote Link to post
Daz 7 563 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam I'm the Opposite Adam Both My Rapids are sub 12 ft/lbs and that's the way they are staying as they both shoot so sweet for Hunting Rifles, And i have no Qualms about using them on the THL HFT Shoots or in their natural hunting environment. As Pianoman as stated it's Accuracy over power everytime and also good Field Craft as We know bud atvb Daz 7. Only because you cant see past 50yrds Daz Hope all is well mate ATB Adam Don't need to with the Falcon Scopes i just Nail them at all ranges :tongue2: I'm Fine You Young Whipper Snapper have more Respect for Your Elders atvb Daz 7. Taken a leaf from your book and got a Falcon Menace FFP 5.5-25 x 50 mate, if it will fit ill slap it on the 97k for the next meet or maybe even the gaystate! ATB Adam Well Done Adam bud i've got 2 falcons now bud the 4-14 x 44 Falcon Menace FFP Scope with EMD Recticule and, The New 5.5 - 25 x 50 ir Falcon Menace FFP with B20 Recticule. atvb Daz 7. Edited December 5, 2012 by Daz 7 1 Quote Link to post
AR177 588 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Well the extra power changes the curve of the pellet trajectory so although yes you can make longer shots with it, I think that the 'sub 12 ranges' become flatter trajectories (I might be wrong, Si is the expert on these things) so the FAC 22 shoots more like a 177 I see what your saying Gaz My views on it are if you could have an FAC rapid with the extra power or a normal rapid which would you choose? Id always go for the FAC even if I didn't take the long range shots, just nice to know i could if i wanted too Like having a fast car, why have one if the limit in town is 30? just nice to know you could do 100+ if you wanted too Not trying to upset anyone I can never tell the tone of my writing ATB Adam I'm the Opposite Adam Both My Rapids are sub 12 ft/lbs and that's the way they are staying as they both shoot so sweet for Hunting Rifles, And i have no Qualms about using them on the THL HFT Shoots or in their natural hunting environment. As Pianoman as stated it's Accuracy over power everytime and also good Field Craft as We know bud atvb Daz 7. Only because you cant see past 50yrds Daz Hope all is well mate ATB Adam Don't need to with the Falcon Scopes i just Nail them at all ranges :tongue2: I'm Fine You Young Whipper Snapper have more Respect for Your Elders atvb Daz 7. Taken a leaf from your book and got a Falcon Menace FFP 5.5-25 x 50 mate, if it will fit ill slap it on the 97k for the next meet or maybe even the gaystate! ATB Adam Well Done Adam bud i've got 2 falcons now bud the 4-14 x 44 Falcon Menace FFP Scope with EMD Recticule and, The New 5.5 - 25 x 50 ir Falcon Menace FFP with B20 Recticule. atvb Daz 7. Very nice! Mine is EMD & got mine for the rimmy but I'm so impressed I might invest in a few more for all my other rifles! ATB Adam Quote Link to post
Tron 173 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) I think, having owned many guns over the years both sub 12 FPE and FAC rifles I loved .22 FAC Air Weapon guns simply because of the .177 type of trajectory given plus of course the knowlenge that when the quarry was hit it was hit with more than enough FPE to do the job. I never attempted to shoot quarry beyond 40 yards and have done endless stalkes to get within 35 yards only to have whatever I had spent time crawling to get nearer to have run or fly off!! As pianoman rightly observed accuracy is the most important part of a rifle plus of course the skill to use it! Having said that I do attempt to shoot pigeons off the top of a big Oak tree which has some dead branches on the top and have knocked a few woodies down the tree is 7o plus yards away in the middle of a field with no cover and the nearest hedge line about 60 plus yards away. Edited December 5, 2012 by Tron Quote Link to post
Elmer_Fudd 28 Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Like I said its a debate so I guess its not been to bad really. Good points raised and topic well discussed I would say. My conclusion would be as many have pointed out I guess accuracy and field craft. Although I would be tempted to test my self now and again with such a rebound rifle. I have subscribed to his Chanel as I do think its a good video and very honest. Gaz Quote Link to post
ghillies 209 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 i notice every one neeglected the use of FAC in .177 lol.. dont knock it till you tried it. a lot of people get a karbine barrel crowned and sized for sub limits, up it and offf they go.. first off, the kick is irrelivent, you get used to it. the change in tragectry curve is the same principle of changing a pellet or caliber, it's time in to allow the chenge to get in your head basicaly. any change from what your used to seems odd and unwanted because subcontously you know its a 12 month adjustment to get fluent in it. after the barrel sorted you still need to tune the gun barrel and pellet to its better velosity, and sort a pellet that can hold that power.(and a silencer lol..and a scope...ok its a big change but..fff 3 week you'll be into it). some guns even sit on the sonic power band..pissing in the wind for accuracy, and, that 'band' is a 100 or so feet per sec eather side of the sound barrier, varies gun to gun and pellet to pellet). most people have a 'confidence' thing, this scope is exspensive so better and they shoot better for a bit...sort of dummies for adults lol. (as in what fills your confidence to let you shoot better). back on to the debate, a humane kill and cruelty are two diferent things, e.g. ''wing it..several times'' the leave it moan to death is very cruel. BUT a few seconds on a clip then dispatched is entirely a different mind set altogether. remember that old law about retreaving injured animals, the one where you could abscond with in reason to dispatch a injured quory. onto the anti's..they deam it, justify themselves and then would you beleive they take the ''wing it..several times'' aproach?? Quote Link to post
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