Cross breeding

[downsouth 7,356]

Over the years ive chosen to keep dogs going back to Gould and Old Nuttal blood as in my opinion they are the best dogs for what i want with the exception of some of the Stevens type stuff that ive seen in the last few years but from what i can work out and what ive been told right or wrong they go back to old Gould stuff anyway.If i saw a black dog from a different line that was far superior to anything i knew of from them lines that was a proven producer even when outcrossed i would consider using it but as for a different breed no way.In just over 20 years of keeping working terriers ive yet to see a Russell,Lakey,Border that can better a top class black dog for what i want thats why i never kept Russells,Lakeys or Borders.Slips would you have used a Russel on Moss or Fran ?

So what exactly do you want??

kennel blindness, don't think your optition will know of the condition but that's what your suffering from.. To say you wouldn't use a different type over a black of yours even if it was superior at its job is madness plain and simple. I'm also sad to say that a top class Russell lakey or what ever is just as good as a top class fell. I'm sure you will disagree but what in your opinion can a top class black do that let's say a top class Russell can't?

I said i hadnt seen one that could better a top class black dog,I didnt say there wernt any as good and that was marshmans question.Now if i was to see a Russell that completely blew me away a real superdog best thing id ever seen i still wouldnt put on one of my black bitches.Id be looking to try and get a pup out of it to a similar bred bitch of decent quality as long as the dog was from a family of good quality workers.

so what ya saying

I think he's saying he would settle using a "decent" quality bitch to a super dog rather that a super dog to a super bitch just because there a different type..

So in 20 years what haven't you seen in other working terrier types that your gould & nuttal do for you that can't be bettered??

From what iv seen most dogs that have "big" names attatched to them have been a pile of wank stain, not saying yours are before you have a Internet explosion, but you do have me really puzzled on a/ the fact in 20 years you haven't seen any top class dogs apart from blacks & what they do that's so good that you refuse to use a better quality worker in a breeding over a particular black, other than because of the colour of its fur.

Iwould always use best available to best available.Maybe im luckier than other you in that i have access to at least 3 top quality black dogs from bloodlines that suit me and no i dont believe the can be bettered,Put them in dig them out anywhere so what could any other dog from any other breed do better than that.And in the last 20 years no i havnt seen a dog of any other colour come even close to the best blacks that ive seen work but then ive seen a lot more blacks work,Some very good and some shit.Now if somebody came to me with a top quality Russel bitch asking if i knew of a top quality black dog to use on it i would tell them to do their homework and try to find a top quality russel dog to use on it.Do you not wonder why most of the busiest terriermen tend to stick to a particular breed usually all bred from the same family/line.

The original question was a theoretical one, ie "if" the best dog you knew for breeding was a different type would you still line your bitch.. I think your taking the question on a personal level as the 3 best dogs you know of are fell types. IF they weren't there I'm guessing you would out cross IF the best available was of a different type?

I never really think about what other terriermen keep or why, black white or what ever if they do the job and breed best to best then hats off to um, as i always say "there kennels there choice" il just carry on putting in and digging out with which ever colour dogs I decide to take out.

Iwould only cass it as outcrossing if i used a dog from a different family/line not a different breed.Maybe im just stubborn and pigheaded but i wouldnt breed the bitch untill i could find a top quality dog that at least shared some common ancestry as the bitch.Im a firm believer that the future lies with the family.I might be completely wrong but thats the way i like to do things

[Stabs 3]

There are too many variables to take into consideration – too many shades of grey, to issue definitive statements regarding types or breeds, or whatever you want to call them. A generalisation is only ever going to be exactly that…the mean, the average, an approximation. Something issued for people who have but a passing interest, often by people who have little working knowledge of the “type.” Or alternatively, by those who seek to entice. Show me the small print; the workings behind the glossy façade; the text behind the headlines and that’s where the truth invariably lies. Families within lines within breeds within types. That’s what makes it interesting for me.

[marshman 7,758]

@stabs. Have you swallowed a dictionary lol? I get the bit about a" to many shades of grey" and a generalisation but you've lost me on " something issued for people who have but a passing interest, often by people who have little who have little working knowledge Of the type" and the bit about the the workings behind the glossy facade lol . Forgive my ignorance but can you clarify?

[Stabs 3]

No dictionary swallowed lol

 

what i mean is that people who say russells (or white dogs) work in a certain way are often generalising and stereotyping a breed or type. i know of a white dog from lines of white dogs not far from you marshman, that works like a total headcase and is nothing like the stereotyped russell. that's what i mean. people who say bull terriers are the 'gladiator' dog and who think patts are mini pits.....look closer than the stereotype...look at the lines and families because black and white and every shade in between has probably been crossed at one point or another

[marshman 7,758]

@stabs. Cheers Mate I understand now.

[whippet 99 2,613]

i aint no lick ass ...................but stabs is 100% right i reckon...........................

i whelped a bitch this season who threw 3/4 russells x 1/4 patterdales and half were pure black with a touch white on feet and blaze.......................no doubt they will be referred to as pure pats...........to much this and that .......to have the same out come

ive notice stabs piece in edrd getting very informative wording in there lol

[Forager 14]

If i had seen a dog of a different breeding be dug to week in week out and achieve more than any dog of the same breeding as my own. And the dog came from a line of workers that produce consistent grafters.

i would not keep the bitch of lesser quality I would out the inferior bitch and try to get my hands on a couple of dogs of the same line as the stud dog

 

Forager

[Wolfie 106]

Ive allways been a beleiver if you have a Russell you mate it to a russell.lakie to lakie and so on .cant see the point in mating russells to lakies and such like

[marshman 7,758]

@Forager . Fairplay mate say you couldn't get a bitch of the same line or breed as the dog . Its a simple question ,Would you put it to your black bitch?

[Forager 14]

if my bitch was inferior to the dog NO, I would be looking to get better then I had

 

but when your talking about my black bitch you know that i keep up to date with all the dogs of her line

one of the reasons I got her is she comes from a line of tested workers

if she ever makes the grade i will know in advance what dog i would use i would not need to go hunting for a stud dog

 

Forager

[marshman 7,758]

So is that a yes or a no then lol? Bear in mind it's a hypothetical question and I know you wouldn't have to go looking for a stud dog haha

[lukey 1,621]

Downsouth I agree with you think your spot on! Ive typed down a big reply to this twice n decided not to post because to be honest its a bit of a daft question!

[kirstysdad 827]

worker to worker if they are good enough they are good enough after all they are all terriers just to put a spanner in the works what if you breed your 2 top class black dogs and some of the pups come out black and tan red or with white on them will they be no good for work because of there colour

[lukey 1,621]

worker to worker if they are good enough they are good enough after all they are all terriers just to put a spanner in the works what if you breed your 2 top class black dogs and some of the pups come out black and tan red or with white on them will they be no good for work because of there colour

 

Thats what I mean when I say bit of a daft question as everything seems to be "What ifs". What if most of the digging dogs out there were patts and were the easiest to get hold of good blood? Then thats just the way it would be, and that would mean youd have more chance of getting a great stud dog for your great patt bitch, so why would you go to anything else?

[marshman 7,758]

@lukey. Fairplay mate if you think it's a daft question can I ask why you think it's daft? If your worried about defending your views I can sort of understand why you wouldn't want to add your long reply!