Lack of enthusiasm

[04fox8 168]

No doubt this is getting boring to some now

 

Yesterday he was a class act. One particular retrieve out of sight and just behind a little hill was brilliant, he went to far and I pipped him in a little them directed him on to it.

 

I'm playing games where I tell him to search in cover, keeping him focussed on where I tell him to go, I point in various places and tell him to look there from a small distance. When he isn't looking I chuck a dummy out and direct him on to it. I'm trying to get him to be trust that when I tell him to look somewhere there is going to be something there for him to retrieve.

 

The best ending to the day what that while we were walking back down the hill with him to heel and a squirrel shot out in front of us about 4 or 5 metres out and ran right across Ollies path, sure his head went forward a little bit but he didn't chase or even move from heel.

 

Top lad I'm really proud of him at the moment.

 

Not at all,

On the conterary, having been reading back through pages and pages in this section, I thought this was one of the best topics on here.

 

Very good answers from folk that obviously do know what they are on about (to some degree anyway )

 

Very interesting (For Me at least) to get the 'commentary' / relay of progress in relation to the advice given / received.

 

Out of curiosity, how's it going 1 year on?

 

[Born Hunter 17,798]

Nice to see this thread again. Nick, you did a bit of shooting last year if I remember. Do you feel confident enough in your dog to take him with you this year? How steady is he with birds?

 

[Nik_B 3,790]

well done bud,

the more energy he can express with us the more control we have, may seem the opposite to how it should be but energy should never be confronted just channeled,

 

when we are not the expression for energy the mutt will find something else that fits the bill, and seemly the dog is said to be doing his own thing, becoming more dominant , getting out of hand, so we confront and control and dominate, the first thing that suffers is the working relationship because it's all just energy to the dog whether its jumping up of chasing a ball,

 

It's taken a year to figure out what you meant by this but you are 100% right and it's what I had been doing, trying to control/confront his energy. And having said that in answer to the following question nope things went slowly down hill again as I struggled to channel his energies, the e-collar has probably done a lot of bad and I stopped using it because it is pointless in our situation. I need to build up his enthusiasm to the point of bursting and then channel it rather than mute it which is exactly what an electric shock (no matter how small) baddly timed is going to do.

 

My other problem with ollie was he was shy of people and would get a bit nervous in certain situations like near shops with lots of people etc and I'd been avoiding that problem because I had no idea what to do about it. The last so called behaviourist said there was nothing wrong with him and it was all coming from me which is not true (although my reaction to his reaction probably made it worse or reinforced his behaviour). I have now found myself probably the best behaviourist in our area. She is not connected to the gundog world thank god! Nearly all the tips I was given by the previous trainers tended to be on the domineering/overbearing side. Every time I made some progress it would be undone because I thought I was doing what those trainers would have done in the same circumstances like barking orders at the dog, being too dominating and really I should have been allways working towards our bond and getting him to do things for me because he wants to not because I made him do it.

 

So saddly this isn't a happy reply to the thread that people will want to hear and I didn't post this because its depressing really but I haven't given up and I am working my balls off to get him sorted out I've decided to focus on Ollie being a dog seeing me as the source of all things fun...something that is not easy witha 4 year old dog with bad habits!! If I succeed then I am sure the gundog stuff will come easil, even to a fairly old dog.

[skycat 6,173]

Nik, it's not a depressing post at all: even if you and the dog have been through the mill, at least you are now on the right track: that's what really counts. And although it is much harder to get over long standing issues, you can get there. Old (er) dogs can learn new tricks: and humans can also learn new ways to do things ... as long as we want to!

[Nik_B 3,790]

Yeh Ollie knows the trick I want him to perform so when I go back to that kind of training it wont be too difficult, the issues are really more to do with me and we don't have the right kind of bond. He doesn't get super exited because I've knocked it out of him (none violently) and/or been boring as hell compared to the other distractions. The only good thing to have come out of this is that I really am starting to understand what I've done wrong and I've learned loads because he has issues in virtually every way imaginable. On the flip side he's not a bad dog and even his 'nervousness' is very minor compared to most dogs. I believe he just have very heightened senses and is very alert so if there is something he wont like near by he will see it! I'm working on 'leave it' and 'watch' type commands so that he will learn to ignore things that are a good or bad distraction...we've already had a lot of sucess in the last couple of weeks in that department which is nice.

 

Onward and upward

[Casso 1,261]

There is an awful lot of misinformation out there about dogs , most of it lead to the erosion of the working relationship

 

Dogs are born social , they don't need to be disciplined to become social and listen to commands, they don't need to be put in there place to get the best out of them ,

 

Discipline installs fear not respect , it will shut a dog down and stop him what he doing alright no doubt but it will also change how the dog perceives us , how he relates to us

 

Dogs learn to avoid something that give them a negative feeling , a negative feeling inside,he feels it in his gut , it's not a thinking process , us humans with our big thinking brain think other animals function like us , we still get" gut feeling " and still have many phrases that reference how we feel inside such as "stomach churning "and "heart in the mouth "stuff , they are a throw back to our mammal past when we relied on instinct,

 

Instinct is just how the dog works , instinct is fear based , survival based , which is completely untrainable, you can see it in a lot of dogs that constantly misbehave, if we have brought a dog up to fear us we make whatever else it's interested in much more exciting for him because a dog wants to be a predator when we dominate he becomes prey like

 

We find we mostly need to call a dog or confront when the dog is excited or stimulated by something,

what ever it is dont matter what has caused a feeling but the dog feels he has to act on it , we can see the excitement in his body movements , he is feeling predator like

He can't be stuck with the feeling inside , hundreds of thousands of years of evolution state that the canine must act in a predator way

 

When we call him up then , to come to us because we are pack leader we are giving him a choice, come to us because we are aggressive and snarling , which make him feel prey like Or go and investigate or chase in a predator like fashion which all his genes are telling him to do , by dominating we are making the choice easier for the dog to disobey

We become the path of highest resistance and whatever interests the mutt becomes the path of least resistance

We get more out of a dog if we think group not pack , pack causes friction to the canine state , group equals the hunt, predator like and feeling good,

Every pup is an open book willing to learn whatever it takes to be in the group , how it gets to the stage of zoning us out and not wanting to make contact or listen is down to pack leader misinformation

[Nik_B 3,790]

Things are going well, even though lasts years successes were fantastic the problem was I knew I had other issues i.e. as little nervous around people, noises, cars, animals and for my own sanity had decided I couldn't bear dealing with it anymore and so off we were (Shells favorite customer driving a 4.6 litre V8) driving miles in to the peak district to find places away from people and other dogs.

 

In February I found a farmer who would let me use his land and again Ollie was perfect because there were no distractions but then I realized I can't continue taking him to places where there are no distractions...eventually WE would need to confront the problems which is what I mean earlier when I said things went down hill. I stopped the fun stuff because I wanted to try and sort his nervous behavior (and partly because the weather had warmed up..I hate getting hot and sweaty) instead what I did was try to do something neither of us were comfortable with by taking us both in to stressful situations like the local shops etc, when he got twitchy or jumpy (this only really lasts for seconds) I would then start to get stressed out and he was reading my increased stress levels...Dogs can smell adrenaline and hear your heart rate increase!!

 

So I got pissed off basically and decided I needed a behaviorist. At the same time I started taking him to a pub and to my surprised he was fairly relaxed no growling at people so this has become out 'socialization' place for him to learn to be calm around people...also the beer helps me be calm. It might sound crazy but after 2 or 3 pints Ollie looks like he was the one who'd drank the beer not me He is clearly getting calmer as I relax. Last week we were sitting at the bar talking to one of the people living on the canal Ollie was sat right in the main through way where people pass the bar to the toilet and he was 100% calm.

 

3 Weeks ago I finally got the cash together for the behaviorist I explained the whole problem, why I got the dog and how now I just wanted him to be calm everything else would be a bloody bonus in fact I can live without him being a working dog I just want him to be chilled out and ignore everything going on around him. Off we went to the shops she told me that he wasn't actually half as nervous as I though he was, explained loads about his body language etc. She gave me a program to follow of desensitizing him to different environments, for me to listen to relaxing music and ignore the dog as we walked and not to stop at 'trigger points' where he would start to anticipate something bad happening like at a bus stop.

 

Over the last 3 weeks he's been doing really well, much calmer dog. We are working very hard on Look commands and leave it commands, the theory is that he will ignore the distractions around him as I condition him to look at me on command. We've started the retrieving again and she gave me some amazing pointers....how to NOT BE BORING TO A DOG LOL. I could write a book on my experiences with Ollie and he is now 4 years old but we will get there. Oh and I took the starter pistol out the other day and he was fine

 

Anyway...here's ollie at his 4th birthday party...all work and no play makes a dull dog

 

[skycat 6,173]

Think that behaviourist hit the nail on the head when she told you he wasn't as nervous as you thought he was. So many owners get the wrong idea of what their dogs are feeling, trying to put a human perspective on the dog, and actually making the situation a lot worse, as you explained about the pub scenario. Sadly, it's usually the case, where the owner actually gives the dog something to be nervous about.

 

My dogs know immediately, when we are out on 'exercise' if I'm happy or angry to meet another dog walker: some I tolerate, most I try to avoid, and most my dogs ignore, but there's always a few that wind us up. Me first, and the moment I start thinking black thoughts, without saying a word, my dogs are tense, some growl, others slink behind me. Even if we're alone, my mood only has to change a fraction and the dogs are aware of it. Similarly, if we're mooching about and I see something but they don't, they're immediately 'on the hunt', as it were, trying to find what I've seen, whether by using their noses, their ears or their eyes. We influence our dogs' behaviour far more than a lot of people realise.

[Nik_B 3,790]

We went to the hills again with the starter pistol again last night, he seemed to get a bit more nervy, I did 6 shots and then called it a day. Think I need to find a different place as he's associating that particular walk with the blanks. The last one I tried further away from him and threw a dummy for him to get but the area we were on was moorland and you're not really supposed to let dogs on it.

 

On the way back we stopped off at the pub again. I'd forgotten about halloween but there was a party going on, I nearly left but decided it would be good socialization for the both of us The pub was as full as I've seen it loads of kids all swarmed over Ollie as did the adults. Normally I'd have been protective of him in such a situation but I just let him crack on. 2 hours later and he was just fine everyone said what a great dog he was

 

Although this thread has moved away from the original purpose these are the gaps that needed filling in. I will see the trainer in another 2 weeks time to work on him ignoring other dogs and recall etc. If we crack that and the nervousness then I will be able to take him with me as a peg dog at the very least.

[Nik_B 3,790]

In the last week I've been walking him during the evening with the fireworks going off and also on busy roads to desensitize him to loud traffic and loads of people.

 

Today I took him to the clay ground and let him walk round the club house off lead as I think the lead was making him more jumpy. he made some friends and got lots of attention which he used to shy away from. Then met a guy who though Ollie was his own Lab and even said "how did you get out of the car?!". I got chatting and he offered to bring his own dog round the clay ground with us which made it much better. At very close ranges he still got a bit spooked but not panicking so in my opinion he did very well. Near the end of our walk he was 6 ft from a gun going off and didn't hardly react.

 

We then let the dogs have a play, Ollie being Ollie decided he needed to show the other lab who was the Alpha male and humped him he walked to heel when asked, returned to me when asked, and left the other dog alone after being TOLD in a gruff voice.

 

We'll be going to a real shoot on Saturday. Just a DIY type thing so no pressure

[Casso 1,261]

Sounds like progress is been made which is always positive for the relationship between dog and owner

 

When I introduce a dog to a situation where fear is likely to occur in the dogs mind such as strange noises or environments I like to let the dog believe there is potential for excitement or for energy to flow within it, in that I mean the dog feels it can express itself with you through ball play or some other positive group interaction that way any negative stimulation can become a positive or a part of the flow system

 

When a dog is energised in drive or play he feels great , energy is flowing and it's a state in which the dog learns quickest, he is at his sharpest, all information in the environment is ingested into that flow pattern good bad or indifferent, smells sounds terrain

All ingested into the feel good factor

 

everything falls into that positive mindset, it's just the same as protection dogs feeling that having bin lids thrown at them or been hit by sticks is all part of the flow feeling within them

 

The trick is to make the dog believe there is potential for positive interaction in each and every negative situation because that is what transformed the neg into the positive

If we look at any dog we can see that he is at his happiest during a group activity where energy is flowing , be it hunting , ball play retrieving a dummy or just play

 

it's the STATE the dog is in when we introduce the negetive that underlines the response ,

 

The humping of the other dog Nik is only a reaction to a static situation , no flow or play had stopped and things were not moving quick enough for your dog once you all started moving again that all stops ,

Best of luck , it's nice the see someone who is actively working towards the answers because that's all it is , we just need to look at the dog from his side

[Nik_B 3,790]

Skycat and Casso

 

You both know your stuff about dogs and I think you would love my behavioral trainer. Positive training only, no aversion. 5 Weeks since the first visit and the dog is coming on in leaps and bounds. Might be a bit late in the day to turn him in to a top gun dog but I am 100% he is going to be happy, confident and not scared of anything. We went to a clay ground today to work on the gun fire and he was great, one more session and we'll be doing this on our own. Been working on getting him fired up and channeling his energy and prey drive. Once I can actually get him on a shoot his instincts will kick in.

 

This is probably a very strange thread to read from the beginning (with all it's twists and turns) but the learning curve has been steep for me. Everyone I know has been commenting on how much I have changed as well, happier and positive which is true. For the last couple of years I could barely look at my dog without feeling really miserable as he was 'nervous' and walking him was horrible.

 

Onward and upward

[04fox8 168]

It's a good read, and interesting to see how things are panning out.

[the monkey 339]

been reading this thread with interest ...did you take him on a shoot? how did he get on?

[Nik_B 3,790]

It was too much too soon, Ollie is very quick to build associations, and when he doesn't understand what is going on they become negative associations. Basically the people who asked us to come were saying we can do as much or as little as we like but tbh they're very short on dogs and I felt a bit under pressure which no doubt was passed on to the dog. I took him beating twice, I now need to go back a few steps and 'deconstruct' the events of the day clackers/guns individually and desensitize him to those things. After we do that he will be ready to go back if I want to, I'm not sure I want to use the dog for flushing.

 

But what is really important is I now know how to approach these problems and I am gaining more confident every day. 5 Weeks ago he appeared to be scared of people, buses, ladders all kind of stuff and the work I have done with him has almost defeated every one of those things and he is definitely not nervous and neither am I anymore lol.

 

Wednesday my trainer came with me to the clay shooting ground where he has also build up slightly negative associations. We spent 3 hours pushing him slightly further and then taking him back to a comfortable place i.e the hut where he is very happy. Then we went back out and did a little more, he needs nurturing through these steps a little more because I was a bit too bullheaded with him.

 

So things are going great, next year I'm sure he will at the very least be good enough to sit on a peg as long as I keep up the work.

 

Cheers

 

Nick