Working COCKER HELP !!

[danspence2012 5]

hi all.

 

i have a 9month old cocker mostly trained...

 

he has a very good ped, and both parents work too.

 

he is good with basics 9 sit stay and directions by voice and whistle.

 

and hunts and retrieve very well too.

 

he showed no interest i heel work at all but after a week solid heel work he is now doing heel of the lead. its still early days with heel but work in progress as he dose try and run off every so often and he knows its wrong as he kind of role over to submit to me after.

 

i have managed to intoduce a stopwhistle which he will do every time but as soon as a dummy is intorduced then thedummy is more inportant.

 

he is a very head strong dog and slowly wining the battle (which it has turned into) training dogs in the past i always thought training dogs simular to breaking a horse.. as you break its will.. feels like thats what i need to do with my puppy.

 

i do understand that it takes more than a week on each subject and some need more renforcing than others.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTL829MQyxs is a video of him a few months ago when i was doing some steadynes with him.

 

and advice would be great

Edited July 11, 2012 by danspence2012

[skycat 6,174]

The problem with 'breaking' a dog is that you are continually fighting against its natural energy and instincts. Modern dog training, (and horse training) is all about channelling the nature and energy of the animal without breaking its spirit. Unfortunately a lot of gun dog trainers are still living in the dark ages.

[danspence2012 5]

Hi thanks for your reply,

 

Hope you didn’t take me the wrong way. I completely agree with you.

 

 

I have not and will not trained him so he is scared to death of doing anything wrong. i have been trying to do it along the lines of that “no that’s wrong” and repeat it until he does it right. In the same way you would do sit and stay..

 

 

I think now he knows the basics he is finding the harder things more tasking. Like last night while he is hunting around if I do the stop whistle he will sit and stay until I tell him what to do. But if I put a dummy out too and try to stop him he will ignore me then return with the dummy a bit sheepish.

 

I have been reluctant to continue this route as I thought I was teaching him he can ignore me, but then I tried a couple more and he did indeed stop on a couple.

 

 

And with heel was basicly doing the same, keep him at heel try to get him out around people and other dogs which normally he would just bolt off to go and say hi to them. I spent days just walking around and throwing a tennis ball out and slowly he just stayed at heel, and just got him to sit and stay while I picked it up and we would walk off at heel again

 

Is it a case of do more of it?

 

 

If any one can tell me any more training exercise that I could do with him it be gratefully received.

 

 

[Lab 10,979]

Its 9 months and still a pup. You said this video was from a few months ago, so when did you start this training? Pushing a pup is a sure way to start problems. For a 9 month old pup it looks to me like he is doing fine, especially for a hot headed cocker. Oh and I'd stop that blowing the whistle on return........

[danspence2012 5]

hi,yeah video was when he was about 7 months, and is 9 months now.

i didnt do to much with him i think i had been doing basics with him at about 6 monthsish. and took to it really well.

 

i think thats the other thing i hear people say that they had there dog working at 11 months and panic thinking,god, im/hes not ready... so i do keep reaining myslef in too.

[Lab 10,979]

  On 12/07/2012 at 07:42, danspence2012 said:

hi,yeah video was when he was about 7 months, and is 9 months now.

i didnt do to much with him i think i had been doing basics with him at about 6 monthsish. and took to it really well.

 

i think thats the other thing i hear people say that they had there dog working at 11 months and panic thinking,god, im/hes not ready... so i do keep reaining myslef in too.

Yes you will hear alot of that and then you see the dog work its just a mediocre or worse its useless.... Take your time, your not in a rush. You wont spoil the dog by letting it learn at its own pace but you will if you push it too hard.......ATB..

[Casso 1,261]

  On 12/07/2012 at 07:20, danspence2012 said:

Hi thanks for your reply,

 

Hope you didn’t take me the wrong way. I completely agree with you.

 

 

 

I have not and will not trained him so he is scared to death of doing anything wrong. i have been trying to do it along the lines of that “no that’s wrong” and repeat it until he does it right. In the same way you would do sit and stay..

 

 

I think now he knows the basics he is finding the harder things more tasking. Like last night while he is hunting around if I do the stop whistle he will sit and stay until I tell him what to do. But if I put a dummy out too and try to stop him he will ignore me then return with the dummy a bit sheepish.

 

I have been reluctant to continue this route as I thought I was teaching him he can ignore me, but then I tried a couple more and he did indeed stop on a couple.

 

 

And with heel was basicly doing the same, keep him at heel try to get him out around people and other dogs which normally he would just bolt off to go and say hi to them. I spent days just walking around and throwing a tennis ball out and slowly he just stayed at heel, and just got him to sit and stay while I picked it up and we would walk off at heel again

 

Is it a case of do more of it?

 

 

 

If any one can tell me any more training exercise that I could do with him it be gratefully received.

 

 

 

i work a dog on the premise that stop or any other command will introduce or produce more energy for the dog, what drives a dog is Potential energy that how a dog operates,

its always whats round the corner

, a bird in the hand is not worth two in the bush to a canine mind, the two in the bush is what keeps every dog hunting and listening to commands, so even if i want a dog to stop doing something the command has got to produce an excited interested mindset in the dog,

 

recall becomes come and see what i have to throw for you, there are no negative consequences only positive associations for what might be construed as a negative in other training methods

 

you seem to be doing a nice job with the pup, once the pup feels its in its best interest to listen to commands and fall into line, things will get a lot easier, have confidence in yourself and enjoy the pup, the pup is still trying to feel you out too, there are so many influences out there on a pup , its difficult for them but once he realizes that you the biggest energy outlet in its environment you'll become its number 1 , best of luck

Edited July 12, 2012 by Casso

[wyeman 1,268]

If I may, a few observations:-

 

I have found that with dogs, there are no shades of grey, when it comes to discipline. Your pup is either completely steady to dummies or it isn't. If you allow him to transgress, the situation will only get worse and it will only be a small step away from being unruly. I would go back a few stages and sit the dog whilst you throw a few dummies around him and make sure he does not move. Collect all the dummies yourself and make a show that you are collecting them, you must instil the notion that very few retrieves will be his. Once obedience is instilled return to the long range retrieve but make sure the dummy is thrown into light cover(gets the dog using it's nose) and at such an angle that you can intercept the dog if it runs in to retrieve. But only only allow the pup to retrieve on one in 6 or 7 occasions, collect the remainder yourself whilst the pup remains in position. In any case retrieving training always in light cover (so that the pup depends less on eyesight and more on nose) should only be carried out infrequently, so that the pup sees it as a special reward rather than as an expectation.

 

With Spaniels being hunting dogs, the majority of trainers concentrate on this aspect and encourage their dogs to effectively cover the ground and cover but always within gunshot range, frequently on shoots you will see dogs hunting way beyond shotgun range. This is down to poor training and lack of discipline.

 

Too much heel work with a spaniel could possibly make the pup sticky and take the edge off it's hunting ability. I would be inclined to concentrate on his patterning and covering the ground in a controlled fashion rather than heelwork at this stage - personally I would rather observe a spaniel hunting effectively than one that only walks nicely to heel.

 

Vary your training grounds as much as possible, it surprises many handlers when they take a pup to a new ground and it does not show the same discipline as the pup was showing at their regular ground. Likewise a well behaved pup on dry land may become less so when in water - (a different environment?) and so it may become necessary to return to basics to instil discipline.

 

Hope this makes sense - good luck.

Edited July 12, 2012 by wyeman

[Clare 33]

I was always taught labradors heel first spaniel heel last, as in teach the spaniel heeling once everything else is spot on, i did this with my little cocker and worked well, you might find he never heels as well as a lab but will stay close, at 9months dont push him to hard let him be a puppy and keep any training light and short

[danspence2012 5]

hi all, thanks for the replys,

 

all your comments make complete sense and i have taken them all onboard.

 

i do already do a few of them (maybe not enough) having him sit and thow dummys out and around him and he does not move. he may have the odd flintch if i throw one a lil to close but geuraly he is ok with it, but i may carry this on as you have said.

 

his hunting and entering cover is very good, indeed he knows there more things to find, and in long grass for example he quarters nicley, and on acashions may get to far in front but if i say for far he comes back close and carrys on hunting. again i will want to work on this to. but think evry so often i do need to reain myself in.

 

thanks for the replys guys,

[danspence2012 5]

hi clare,

 

yes agree with you, i think i only wanted to start heel now was because i was thinking if he gets the hang of that then other things may become easyer.. but i keep having a battle with myself on if i should be doing it a diffrent way..or just leave it till later on.

and yes understand conpaered with a lab a cocker may stay close but not as close as a lab.

[skycat 6,174]

Don't forget that he is also going through adolescence at the moment: changing hormone levels. Pups can get real flighty, literally fleeing from correction, or even mundane exercises: they want to kick over the traces and do their own thing. I'm no gun dog trainer, but I'd try and keep things light through this stage, giving the pup as much freedom as possible without letting it run riot: giving a little at this stage seems to produce a more willing accomplice as an adult. Vary the training ground as much as possible, as well as the exercises.

 

If he was a lurcher I'd advise hiding dummies in cover, making things as interesting as possible to keep his attention, but also letting him have a really good gallop and some fun before each training session, and afterwards too.

[danspence2012 5]

hi skycat,

 

thanks for the advice, and yes makes sense.i supose at the moment i would describe him as a naughty teenager.lol.

 

i think i does look like i do need to rein myself in i do try to keep the training short and sweet and then let him loose to do want he wants on the way home, however i think if im being honest when he is doing well with what im doing 5 mins may turn into 20. so yeah i think i have to rein myself in too

 

thanks for the advice.

[barraboy 28]

interesting thread, with some very constructive advice, joy to read an' i'll be applying some of this to my own cocker training, doing ok but always good to learn new things.