Eight in the bed and the little one said!!!!!!!!

[Fenbo 0]

Got these fellas in a clients garden shed,when i opened the door the mother legged it leaving the young'uns behind,they were big enough to scarpa to, but were almost dead i reckon they've been suckling and got the poison from the mothers milk, secondary poisoning. ANY COMMENTS

 

 

[danielt 1]

Those legs look fooking huge, especially the one in the middle of the screen.

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

Taking it as read then that ye had bait down? That's an absolutely fasinating scenario, mate. One that's never even entered my head before now.

 

Of course the maternal milk would contain the AI. Modern rodenticides are Anti Coagulant. They act via the blood stream. Blood stream feeds the colostrum. Ipsi facto; They'd be drinking themselves to death on milk loaded with the same AI.

 

Taking this one step further ..... A rodent who's ingested one of the more powerful rodenticides, like Brodifacoum or Flocoumafen, is a walking dead rodent. Right?

 

Ok, now the LD50 tests ~ as far as I'm aware ~ are based on the consumption of the finished product. So it's per weight of " Storm ", rather than laboratory pure Flo'.

 

And those young have ingested another level of concentration of what ever AI ye used, and bought it. I'll bet no one's ever tested how much maternal milk it takes to kill off suckling young?

 

But my point - and it's a disturbing one - is that this appears to 'prove' that AI levels carried in the blood stream of the initial consumer can still prove lethal, secondarily.

 

And I always thought in terms of it being the ammount of undigested AI present in the gut of the primary consumer that'd wipe out, eg. a bird of prey which caught and consumed that primary consumer. If that had been the case, ye'd be looking at a short window, between primary consumption - by the rodent - and the digestion / excretion of (what I imagined was) the viable AI. With me?

 

But this seems to highlight the fact that AI in the bloodstream might be just as lethal ~ secondarily ~ as a gut full. Sooo ..... A rat who's tasted Brody or Flo may well be wandering around, for far longer than I ever suspected, with lethal blood, long after it's shit the biscuit. F*ck. That's unsettling.

 

Well, I guess that's what all our training's always trying to hammer through to us though, eh? Use the least lethal AI possible. Wether the entire above hypothesis holds water or not, a rodent going about loaded up with Warfarin or Difenacoum is still going to be less secondarily lethal than one pumped full of Brodi, Flo' or even Broma. Guts, blood or what ever.

 

I reckon Killgerm could use that example in their furture courses, mate! Why not run it past them?

[Guest Scuba1]

Well Ditch, remember the chat that we had when I lost 2 and near as dammit three dogs in one day because of

secondary poisoning just because the "played" with a rat that had ingested some poison and the where not small dogs either. One Alsation, one large terrier mix and the one that just made it after about a week is a border collie. It made me think a lot about the strength of the poisons used these days and I would not touch them with a 10 foot barge pole but I also see, that one can not use traps and air rifles alone if one has to make a living as a pester. From personal experience I know how much work and how many hours it takes to rid a small place like our finca of the furry fellows and if I was doing it as a job, I would starve to death before getting a dent in the population.

 

ATB

 

Michael

[highlander 0]

One of my friends lost a lab pup through secondry poisoning after eating a dead rat, told the muppet that the dog had been poisoned but he didnt belive me by the time he took the poor bugger to the vet it had to be PTS. As soon as he walked in the vet said is that that blue poison you have down knew the symtoms straight away.

 

Regards Highlander

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

Scubes; I seriously wonder what the f*ck those Dogs ingested there, mate. Really. I mean, ok, we're pretty much all supposed to be governed by Brussels now and the rules are pretty damn strict on what we (or rather, we Professionals) can use. Thus, in uk, it's all down to an ever shrinking handful of AI's (Active Ingrediants, for those who may wonder what the f*ck I've been on about in talking to Fenbo, above. I.e, the actual poison contained in the vectoring bait).

 

But the sort of shit we use has really been far safer for the duration of living memory. Long gone are the days of strychnine, phosporous, arsenic and so forth. Now it's mostly multiple feed Anti Coagulants. This stuff takes a week or so even to knock over a little rodent. It's all been laboratory tested to make damn sure we know how much it takes to kill what. Most of it is so mild an animal the size of a medium sized Dog would need to be fed the shit day and night before it keeled over. Even then there should be plenty of time to realise this is one sick Dog. The antidote is then a simple shot of vitamin K1.

 

Out where you are, I have my suspicions that ~ a little like here in the quiet backwaters of Eire ~ people have their own ways of dealing with things such as vermin. Put simply; There is no poison which I, even as a Professional rated buyer, can get and use legally which will knock over a large Dog which has " Played with " a rat who's consumed the stuff. At an educated stab, I'd say that had to have been something along the lines of Strychnine, mate. What's known as an " Acute " poison. A lifetime and a world away from what we use these days. Nothing in my store room could do that.

 

Highlander: " That blue poison you have down " ? Half the baits out there are coloured blue. But how's this for another educated stab? I'd say I suspect he was using " Storm ". That's Flocoumafen ~ one of the most powerful poisons available over certain counters. It also comes in 'biscuit' form. Light blue biscuits. Pound to a pinch of shit says the stupid b*stard left the container where the pup could get at it and that puppy scoffed itself a whole belly load of " Dog Biscuits ". And then he dithered about getting it help?! FFS!

 

And this is why ye'll so often hear Professional Pest Controllers advising people to " Call a Professional "

[Hob&Jill 258]

(Active Ingrediants, for those who may wonder what the f*ck I've been on about in talking to Fenbo, above. I.e, the actual poison contained in the vectoring bait).

 

I didnt have a clue, have been trying to work out what the f*ck 'Artificial Intelligence' had to do with it

[highlander 0]

Hi ditch I dont know what poison that idiot used I know it was blocks this was a few years ago now after I fell out with the c*nt because he wouldnt take the pup to the vet. He saw the pup eating a rat but said it would do no harm f*cking idiot. But when he took it to the vet the vet knew the signs straight away and the pup had to be PTS if he had gone when I told him the vet recond he could have saved the pup.

[Phil Lloyd 10,738]

Scubes; I seriously wonder what the f*ck those Dogs ingested there, mate. Really. I mean, ok, we're pretty much all supposed to be governed by Brussels now and the rules are pretty damn strict on what we (or rather, we Professionals) can use. Thus, in uk, it's all down to an ever shrinking handful of AI's (Active Ingrediants, for those who may wonder what the f*ck I've been on about in talking to Fenbo, above. I.e, the actual poison contained in the vectoring bait).

 

But the sort of shit we use has really been far safer for the duration of living memory. Long gone are the days of strychnine, phosporous, arsenic and so forth. Now it's mostly multiple feed Anti Coagulants. This stuff takes a week or so even to knock over a little rodent. It's all been laboratory tested to make damn sure we know how much it takes to kill what. Most of it is so mild an animal the size of a medium sized Dog would need to be fed the shit day and night before it keeled over. Even then there should be plenty of time to realise this is one sick Dog. The antidote is then a simple shot of vitamin K1.

 

Out where you are, I have my suspicions that ~ a little like here in the quiet backwaters of Eire ~ people have their own ways of dealing with things such as vermin. Put simply; There is no poison which I, even as a Professional rated buyer, can get and use legally which will knock over a large Dog which has " Played with " a rat who's consumed the stuff. At an educated stab, I'd say that had to have been something along the lines of Strychnine, mate. What's known as an " Acute " poison. A lifetime and a world away from what we use these days. Nothing in my store room could do that.

 

Highlander: " That blue poison you have down " ? Half the baits out there are coloured blue. But how's this for another educated stab? I'd say I suspect he was using " Storm ". That's Flocoumafen ~ one of the most powerful poisons available over certain counters. It also comes in 'biscuit' form. Light blue biscuits. Pound to a pinch of shit says the stupid b*stard left the container where the pup could get at it and that puppy scoffed itself a whole belly load of " Dog Biscuits ". And then he dithered about getting it help?! FFS!

 

And this is why ye'll so often hear Professional Pest Controllers advising people to " Call a Professional "

 

Erudite reply...

 

I've lost count of the times a client has said to me,..." Is your rat poison ,..'poisonous' to dogs,..

Only,.I've got two pedigree poodles' ?... FFS...

" I always reassure the customer by saying,.." Your dogs are quite safe Madam,...It would be far too expensive for me to kill them'... I get some reet funny looks...Not surprising really,..and on reflection it is a fecking silly comment to make..But,.it just gets a bit insulting to think that a professional pester is going to allow such a thing to occur..

Honestly,.do Electricians, Plummers and other 'trades' get the third degree and are they asked,.'Do you actualy know what you are doing' ? Fecking cheek of it....

However,.modern Pest Control still IS a mystery to many people,..and it is this 'not knowing' that accounts for most of the 'poisoned dog' theories and horror stories... Most rodenticides used today are ANTIDOTAL..

For a dog to die of secondary poisoning he would seem to need to consume a LOT of carcases.....

Bad business losing any dog though,...so condolences to anyone who has suffered it....

All the best,.and keep'em SAFE.... Cheers,..CHALKWARREN....

Edited May 26, 2007 by CHALKWARREN

[Guest Scuba1]

Just to make matters in my case clear. As most of you know, I live on Tenerife and have not a clue, what joe public can buy over the counter as far as poison goes. Here on the voineyard where I live we do not use any form of poison as I get rid of rats and co using other methods but on the farms next to ours it is a different matter. We have a wall / fence around our place so that the dogs can not get out and have / had the run of the place but you can not stop rats from getting in. All three dogs where unable to walk one morning and one of the died while loading them in the car to take them to a vet one died on the way and the other just made it after over a week of being in very poor shape indeed. I think the owners of the farms next to ours just throw around with whatever they can get in the way of poison and I will try to find out what it is they use. I am quite shore, that none of them have a professional pester working for them or things like this would not happen. This is just so that no one feels that I am stepping on other peoples toes here that make a living from pest control as those who do I am quite shore know what they are doing. But I think, that when one has a farm here one can get poisons without any license and spread the stuff at hog.

 

ATB

 

Michael

[Madcowz 0]

..and it is this 'not knowing' that accounts for most of the 'poisoned dog' theories and horror stories...

 

Chalkwarren,

 

how about Ditch, yourself and anyone else, start another thread explaining what you guys do, go into lots of details and explain everything. Like someone else on this thread, I didn't even know what AI was.

 

Would make for a very interesting thread, and I am sure that even us 'country folk' could learn a lot from you guys.

 

Yours,

 

interested to learn,

 

/mad