Seeking advice

[wyeman 1,136]

so without a shadow of a doubt look for a first cross running dog who one of its parents have been bred solely to take instruction from man in whatever form that took,

also try training through drive , which makes a dog listen to commands while in a drive mindset, best of luck,

 

Casso,

 

Two things I would like to follow up, firstly training through 'Drive' for a Lurcher, how would you example this form of training? I can see with Gundogs that after initial obedience has been instilled, hunting a Spaniel over ground that has had game recently on it, but longer present, will stimulate the dogs 'Drive' and further training can be carried out in this state. How does one stimulate a predominately sight hound?

 

Secondly, Morton suggests that overall, that the Lurcher cross as already suggested, would benefit from a more sensitive training approach in comparison to the average Gundog breed, this cannot be because of intelligence issues, so what are the reasons?

[Moll. 1,770]

 

 

Secondly, Morton suggests that overall, that the Lurcher cross as already suggested, would benefit from a more sensitive training approach in comparison to the average Gundog breed, this cannot be because of intelligence issues, so what are the reasons?

 

Why not?

[skycat 6,173]

Casso: one of the best ever explanations I've heard concerning the difference between gun dogs and sighthounds/lurchers.

 

Sighthounds are predominately driven by movement: if the prey stands still at a distance, chances are they won't see it, unless they are very experienced at picking out a particular shape. Take a rabbit in a grass field for example: even if it is clearly visible, the inexperienced dog's eyes will pass over it looking for moving prey. This is not being stupid at all: there's an old saying red on green can't be seen. Dogs have fewer cones in their eyes: the cells that can distinguish colour, so they target movement rather than colour.

 

Using fast moving toys when training is the way to stimulate the sighthound mentality, and in my experience, if you make yourself, or rather, something that you are holding, that target, the pup learns to see you as an exciting place to be. Conventional trainers, and gun dog trainers certainly, are all about damping down the excitement and drive, control, control, control, but training the sighthound lurcher should, IMO, be all about getting that energy going, getting the dog on a high, but

 

But an experienced dog can learn to look for certain shapes providing the background is not too similar in colour to the object. Gun dogs, through breeding and type, use their noses far more to locate prey.

 

When I'm training lurcher pups an important part of that training it teaching the pup to find hidden objects: getting them to use their noses rather than their eyes to detect a previously hidden dummy or toy. I'ts interesting to see how much longer a sighthound saturated lurcher takes to do this rather than say a Collie Greyhound, or a lurcher with a fair bit of Collie in it. The Airedale, on the other hand, has no trouble switching between nose and sight in her efforts to locate something hidden, and her daughters, now half sighthound, are the same: very nose orientated.

 

....and there I was busy writing away and hit the wrong button and deleted half of it

 

What I was saying is that most conventional type trainers, and certainly most gun dog trainers, are all about control, damping down the dog's drive, more control: whereas the way I've found to be the best when engaging the interest, and attention, of a sighthound, is to make yourself exciting, fast moving, the prey, if you like: getting the pup to focus on you, and the dummy or toy you have in your hand, through movement. Only when the dog has learned to have fun at speed, with excitement, freely expressing itself, freely playing, fast and loose, can you start to put into the lessons something more static things: like hidden dummies, things like down/stays.

 

Personally, I feel that there is more of the prey in sighthounds than in some other breeds. Their sensitivity may (I don't know this, so I'm just feeling my way into this theory as I go) may in part be due to their physical fragility which is due to their shape. Compare a cheetah with a lion: they are very differerent: bit like the difference between a bull dog and a whippet. The cheetah is nervous, sensitive, and very fast, when compared with a lion, which just strolls into a situation and takes charge.

 

Maybe sighthounds are the same: maybe you can't have a fast, sharp witted and fabulous galloping dog at the same time as having a hide like a rhino and a brain to match. Maybe physical shape, type and weight really do influence our characters: and are humans any different?

Edited June 13, 2012 by skycat

[wyeman 1,136]

Secondly, Morton suggests that overall, that the Lurcher cross as already suggested, would benefit from a more sensitive training approach in comparison to the average Gundog breed, this cannot be because of intelligence issues, so what are the reasons?

 

Why not?

 

Well I am led to believe the average Collie X Lurcher is an intelligent dog presumably not unlike a Spaniel. I was curious to establish the reasons why the Lurcher would be more sensitive. Are they late in maturing mentally? Having said that, from postings on this Forum some lurchers have been used in the field from 6 months onwards, would this be the general rule?

[birddog 1,354]

i agree with loads there skycat and as a pup my collie cross was all about control, control when feretting sitting and staying where she was put till she gained enough experience, leaving netted(purse and long nets) rabbits alone etc, more control learning lamping so that now she works off the lead letting me decide for the most part what and when she runs, even more control working cover being up enough to go through nettles (she hates them) etc but being under control enough to be obedient and stay within gunshot range (that was a hard one) but i learned when using a gate net that i'd been too controlled orientated she wouldn't hunt far enough away, was always looking to me for help or a signal it took ages to get the penny to drop that at times she was allowed to use her natural instincts and abilities.

[Simoman 110]

Some great replies on this thread, seriously good to see some well thought out responses, personally i dont think a lurcher is the ideal choice for the OP needs.........

[wyeman 1,136]

Some great replies on this thread, seriously good to see some well thought out responses, personally i dont think a lurcher is the ideal choice for the OP needs.........

 

So, going on from that, what are your reasons, bearing in mind my requirement to have a 'breed' that would be challenging to train, a companion and yes, something different.

[skycat 6,173]

birddog: I was the same with my first lurcher: a Collie/Grey. I ruined our relationship by too much control: she ended up never retrieving to me, but she'd happily retrieve to someone else! Now its all about freedom to explore the world, field, be a dog, a hunter first and foremost, while I gently steer in the right direction, slowly gaining the control I need through play and allowing the dog to use me as a focus for its energy. When you get three different dogs all out together, all chasing rabbits, and then retrieving their individual catches to you more or less at the same time: you know that it's working.

 

Yes, I know people who have superbly trained lurchers, Collie lurchers for the most part, which are as well trained as a good gun dog; sitting to flush, going in when told to, and also able to hunt up when given the command to do so. I've got a couple of dogs like that myself: which can watch the others go out and hunt and catch while waiting at my side, but this takes a lot of time, effort and patience: I firmly believe that you can train dogs to do most things of which they are physically capable, but the type of sighthound in the mix will determine to what level you achieve total control at all times.

 

If you want a lurcher to behave as a gun dog, then I'd definitely go for a well bred Collie type lurcher whose parents are worked in a similar way to how you want to work a dog, and there are some about, though most won't be advertised on the internet.

[jon8465 2]

What an excellent thread! I have learnt a great deal from it. Well done all involved.

[Casso 1,261]

so without a shadow of a doubt look for a first cross running dog who one of its parents have been bred solely to take instruction from man in whatever form that took,

also try training through drive , which makes a dog listen to commands while in a drive mindset, best of luck,

 

Casso,

 

Two things I would like to follow up, firstly training through 'Drive' for a Lurcher, how would you example this form of training? I can see with Gundogs that after initial obedience has been instilled, hunting a Spaniel over ground that has had game recently on it, but longer present, will stimulate the dogs 'Drive' and further training can be carried out in this state. How does one stimulate a predominately sight hound?

 

Secondly, Morton suggests that overall, that the Lurcher cross as already suggested, would benefit from a more sensitive training approach in comparison to the average Gundog breed, this cannot be because of intelligence issues, so what are the reasons?

Drive is stimulated in most working dogs in the same fashion, its a state of mind in which the dog is in his most emotional state and usually fixated on a prey item, but this is the thing about it, it can within reason be adapted for different situations, as in the fact that most protection dogs were once used for herding sheep but now are encouraged to fixate on a sleeve held by a helper in protection work, its still the same drive the sheepdog has for rounding sheep but its been channeled by man into a completely different avenue of work,

 

and thats the premise i use for working with a running dog, i dont do any training as such until i have access to drive in an animal, depending on the breeding anywhere from 6/7 months onward, the drive will bring its own intelligence with it, a dog learns quicker in drive than any other state of mind, what i do with the pup is play with a ball or tug item,

its all positives no corrections until the pup is emotionally aware enough to understand what i want and this is facilitated by the fact that at a certain age the pup will want to fit in and understand me because i am the biggest influence in his world because with no corrections no confrontations just positive interactions i am the greatest thing since sliced bread in his world,

and its through play that drive is stimulated, its the want in the dog to make contact with whatever stimulates it, you hear a lot of services dog trainers talk about a ball driven dog and thats all it is , they have the ability to stimulate the dog by an artificial prey item

 

, before they train they get the dog hooked on ball play or similar, they then use that as the reward for correct actions given by the mutt, so before the dog is introduced to real prey which will automatically stimulate a drive response i want to have a foothold in that frame of mind the dog goes into , that way the dog will have a history of been stimulated by me and has the ability to take instruction whereas in most cases a running dog is running away from the owner in that state of mind,

 

The reasons given by Morton are spot on 100% correct, it goes back to the fact that gun dogs can be corrected by their handler and still keep the handler in their frame of reference in terms of access to prey, the handler is always the avenue to drive for them, so a negative can be felt as a positive , a correction can be construed as just another instruction or a detour on its pathway to work in drive , eventually a correction can be felt a positive if it leads to the dog accessing its drive, a dog in drive is in complete harmony with it environment its a state of mind where a dog is in complete bliss so even corrections that will eventually lead a dog to drive are just another barrier to be overcome,

 

but not so most running dogs where the owner is not in its frame of drive reference it doesn't see the owner as part and parcel of drive stimulation, it takes it all very personally with no history of running dogs bred to take instruction as access to drive , the correction in most cases stands on its own and the owner is just seen as the negative,

 

another point that comes into play, is that a running dog is bred to be sensitively aware of its environment, sight hounds have got to be acutely aware of small movements in grass and such places, all of which makes them very tuned in to all sudden movements ours included, roughly handled pup learns very quickly to avoid such situations from past experience, so a dog bred to be sensitive for positive situations on the other hand is also very sensitive to negative ones, us included ,

hope that helps some,,

[birddog 1,354]

skycat, the only lasting legacy from me being to control orientated when she was younger seems to be a lack of confidence in certain situations, she loves to mark and because of the control thing (i think) at times it's more of a point with a wagging tail she'll stand for 10 min before being told to fetch or flush and she's a retrieve aholic shoes, papers, mail just about anything even a wayward ferret once but i think i'd maybe have given her head more as a pup if i were doing it again but hey we're all smart arses with hindsight eh i don't think i've spoiled her but maybe if i'd let her work more out herself she'd have been even better

[Simoman 110]

Some great replies on this thread, seriously good to see some well thought out responses, personally i dont think a lurcher is the ideal choice for the OP needs.........

 

So, going on from that, what are your reasons, bearing in mind my requirement to have a 'breed' that would be challenging to train, a companion and yes, something different.

 

I would like advice on whether a Lurcher type dog could fit in with my way of life and maintain my interest in and love of dogs. The dog would be expected to accompany me and my Spaniels, joining in, in the collection of any ground game, during our daily walks. Accompany me and my dogs on the local rivers and whilst I was fishing, patiently wait until I moved on and finally accompany me on a few shoot days.

 

 

I guess im reading between the lines, im assuming, so i could be wrong? Do you want a lurcher to pick up game, or do you mean pursue and collect? I think a lurcher, same as most dogs would be a fine fishing companion, BUT many will get bored and would rather start working the river bank looking for game to find and run. Also what do you want from a dog on shoot days, one for picking up, if so then many dogs will do this, but some shoot captains aren't as understanding if a dog breaks the line to pursue a flushed animal. Perhaps a few points to clarify these questions would give a cleare indication if a lurcher, or what type may or may not be suitable

[birddog 1,354]

slightly off topic but one of the best picking up dogs i've seen and it was a long time ago was a german shepherd bitch a big fierce looking thing but steady as a rock, very athletic, great nose and a soft mouth

[satan80 358]

feel like i'm at the University of Lurchers here reading all this!

Casso, Skycat etc this info is fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing

[Born Hunter 17,763]

Some great replies on this thread, seriously good to see some well thought out responses, personally i dont think a lurcher is the ideal choice for the OP needs.........

 

So, going on from that, what are your reasons, bearing in mind my requirement to have a 'breed' that would be challenging to train, a companion and yes, something different.

 

I would like advice on whether a Lurcher type dog could fit in with my way of life and maintain my interest in and love of dogs. The dog would be expected to accompany me and my Spaniels, joining in, in the collection of any ground game, during our daily walks. Accompany me and my dogs on the local rivers and whilst I was fishing, patiently wait until I moved on and finally accompany me on a few shoot days.

 

 

I guess im reading between the lines, im assuming, so i could be wrong? Do you want a lurcher to pick up game, or do you mean pursue and collect? I think a lurcher, same as most dogs would be a fine fishing companion, BUT many will get bored and would rather start working the river bank looking for game to find and run. Also what do you want from a dog on shoot days, one for picking up, if so then many dogs will do this, but some shoot captains aren't as understanding if a dog breaks the line to pursue a flushed animal. Perhaps a few points to clarify these questions would give a cleare indication if a lurcher, or what type may or may not be suitable

 

My sentiments exactly. If you want a lurcher to be versatile then that's fair enough, but it seems a gundog is what is wanted not a lurcher. I know far more people that work spaniels/labs than I do lurchers and in general there is a world of difference between the two. Your average lurcher is a hunting/killing machine, they only switch off when completely removed from an environment with even a sniff of game. A gundog however switches off as soon as its owner tells it to (not literally), at any point on a shoot day everyone can stop and the dogs will just mellow and relax. In my experience you just can't do that with the average lurcher, most would realise very soon that waiting around isn't conducive to a successfull day and will slink off to work for themselves. The only way you will get such a hound to wait around is by making them realise it is the best way to successfully hunt and even then they will not switch off. However, I have NO experience with heavily saturated collie/herding bred lurchers and I should imagine they differ but at what point is the dog still a lurcher and not just a mongrel with a dash of sighthound.