Terrier size

[the_stig 6,614]

with best will in the world if it cant get it cant get simple ... dont think a big terrier cant get everywhere ....

Edited May 19, 2012 by the_stig

[Cleanspade 3,324]

If you cant span your terrier he wont get to a fox

You will be supprised how narrow a fox is, i see lots of black terriers that would not be able to get to a fox

The owners a happy with them and what work they have for them

 

bollocks!!! if the terrier wants it, he will find a way.

 

 

rubbish. a terrier needs to be small enough to get. and if its a terrier for fox work it needs to be a handy size. i get sick of hearing people talking nonesense sometimes. so here is the truth. a terrier for fox needs to be small. bigger terriers will get to some foxes if they dig on but if they hit hard ground roots rock etc they are stuffed. to many folk breeding terriers to big these days. they are ok for the odd day out with no pressure but it aint doing the breed any favours.

 

why are folk breeding and bigging up oversized terriers. is it becouse smaller more usefull fox dogs are much harder to breed..

lets face it a dog of say 22 pounds faceing a fourteen pound fox should fair well. as all the odds are in its favour but a small terrier of say fourteen pounds will often have to face a much larger fox than itself. so you need a different animal. anyone that thinks a big terrier can get if it really wants to is kidding themselves. or they havnt done a lot of fox work with terriers.

 

i'm not one for the spanning yardstick as i think the shape of a terrier also dictates if it will get . i think the yanks tape measure method is a better idea. . this of course is just my opinion. and may generate some discussion

Same old same old if a biggish terrier wants it it will get there ..Yeah right in rock, chalk ,small drainsetc etc Total pish .

 

no one mentioned rock, chalk, drain's etc. he said "if you cant span your terrier he wont get to a fox", which is BOLLOCKS.

 

my reply as to... if the terrier wants to it will find a way. which IS bollocks

[fox digger 1,086]

Lads be realistic here, all i keep is handy dogs and they struggle in alot of places, a vixen can squeeze into holes that you would say a ferrit is all that could get upto her. Irrelivant of the dogs drive if its a big dog you definatly will not get all your foxes. small dogs would be a thing of the past if big dogs could work every fox.... go look at a few holes vixens bring out cubs in, i'll put up pics tomorrow of two holes i know there are cubs in and you can tell me if any dog will fit in be it big or small. I know none of my small fox dogs wouldn't get past the mouth of them. (but maybe thats because they dont want to eh)......

[Saho-man 50]

ever spanned a fox...its like a cat, we should breed foxes for diggin to foxes, than problem solved, terrier will be extinct .

[MUDD 374]

I remember knocking a fox to ground one day with hounds. A 3 eyed rabbit burrow Charlie hit for safety. The hunt lad tried his Russell, to no avail, his mate tried his Russell/border bitch after. Hoking and poking etc. never made much effort IMO. Only because a young lad seen Charlie break from the cover and hit the ground and had no reason to lie !! I walked back to the van. 15" b&t unspannable lakie/Russell dog, collared up & In and digging on, every inch was like 5+ mins, he got there after an hour off digging on,,bit by bit and met a decent fox banged up tight as a result. There was a few lads in the field that day that would like to forget about that scenario !!!

 

[Mosby 355]

I see both sides. I've had good dogs to ground spannable and good dogs to ground with huge chests. Drive has alot to do with it. However, my buddies bitch with more drive than most good terriers pushed and pushed to get to a fox a while back. We pulled her off and put a smaller bitch in which made it. The next couple of days the bigger bitches side kept swelling bigger and bigger. Took her to the vet and she had dislocated two ribs trying to get to that fox in a hole too small for her. That big bitch usually makes it to her game but she also gets alot more punishment from jabs from the game she can't perry. Drive will get the dog there in most instances but some holes can't be dug and some dogs will push too tight and suffocate. So why not just have the small dog for the times you need it?

[Mosby 355]

I have been really curious about size these days too. I plan to get some pups off a couple dogs I went to see half a year back. My first impression was "Holy Smokes! Those dogs are huge!" They looked two times the size of my dogs. They were tall, huge boned, long headed and muscled dogs but wiry. I went ahead and spanned the tallest one... He was spannable. I spanned the thickest most muscled dog, she was spannable. I went home and thought for a good while about those dogs. They looked to be much more powerful than my smaller dogs considering their structure. But my dogs chests are bigger. What I wonder is if the chest is all that actually matters. Do the legs truly just fold under? How does the difference of build effect the strength of the dog and it's mobility under the earth.

I am really curious to find out as I've not seen dogs built like this work before.

[p3d 879]

I have been really curious about size these days too. I plan to get some pups off a couple dogs I went to see half a year back. My first impression was "Holy Smokes! Those dogs are huge!" They looked two times the size of my dogs. They were tall, huge boned, long headed and muscled dogs but wiry. I went ahead and spanned the tallest one... He was spannable. I spanned the thickest most muscled dog, she was spannable. I went home and thought for a good while about those dogs. They looked to be much more powerful than my smaller dogs considering their structure. But my dogs chests are bigger. What I wonder is if the chest is all that actually matters. Do the legs truly just fold under? How does the difference of build effect the strength of the dog and it's mobility under the earth.

I am really curious to find out as I've not seen dogs built like this work before.

 

I am curious about the increase in terrier size as well.

I have seen this tall spanable chest type of terrier work and the legs do not fold up!.

In a small tube the back legs are stretched out behind the dog.

The dog is virtually dragging his back end through the tube.

 

Foxes IMO take advantage of whatever earth/drain/burrow that are available in their area.

In areas where Badger settes are common, terriers can be larger.

If the burrows are dug by smaller game (groundhog or rabbit)

The larger terrier will struggle. He will get there, but be prepared to wait!

No fox hound pack is going to wait for an hour while a large terrier digs on through a tube.

 

There has always been a preference for larger terriers in the show scene.

Big strong heads will always look better than small heads.

( puny and snippy heads and muzzles don't impress )

But it's hard to get a strong head in a 14lb package.

Terrierman have been crossing in bulls terriers for generation to achieve this.

Unfortunately no one has been able to get a strong head on a small neck and chest!

[Big bald beautiful 1,231]

Down side is small dogs that can get there often Take more stick then a larger stronger built dog.i have had small dogs that Would get stuck in and be in sick bay because of there small size

[christian71 3,187]

I have been really curious about size these days too. I plan to get some pups off a couple dogs I went to see half a year back. My first impression was "Holy Smokes! Those dogs are huge!" They looked two times the size of my dogs. They were tall, huge boned, long headed and muscled dogs but wiry. I went ahead and spanned the tallest one... He was spannable. I spanned the thickest most muscled dog, she was spannable. I went home and thought for a good while about those dogs. They looked to be much more powerful than my smaller dogs considering their structure. But my dogs chests are bigger. What I wonder is if the chest is all that actually matters. Do the legs truly just fold under? How does the difference of build effect the strength of the dog and it's mobility under the earth.

I am really curious to find out as I've not seen dogs built like this work before.

 

But it's hard to get a strong head in a 14lb package.

Terrierman have been crossing in bulls terriers for generation to achieve this.

Unfortunately no one has been able to get a strong head on a small neck and chest!

 

Thats what nuttall says with a big head comes a big chest

[stop.end 4,082]

good point there p3d... as said when a terrier is diigin on to get to his fox... yes the back legs are stretched out... but he must also use his front legs and paws to dig in any considerable distance to his fox which is often the case so his front paws would be going like a front crawl stroke in swimming, what i mean is front legs wil be stretched out to elbow joint to dig on not folded up..or under...so yes to me chest size is important...so is a strong neck and back....becaucse if you think logically terriers are usually cramped up for sometimes long periods of time having to dig on to there fox....... so for me i like a terrier...to be around 12- 14 inches in size and around 12-15 lb weight ....spannable??/ yes but will allow if my fingers cant exactly touch..... as for head...well heart matters more to me ..ie..staying power..to see the job through...sometimes i think that the people who introduce bull blood too there...russell...patt..lakelands..whatever have not seen the true workers of the original breeds ...if they did they would never had too introduce bull blood... them breeds had evolved over thousands ..yes thousands.. of years to be the earth dogs that they were... terrier..means earth dog. .. ....so as the saying goes why fix something that hasnt broke???? jmo...

[p3d 879]

good point there p3d... as said when a terrier is diigin on to get to his fox... yes the back legs are stretched out... but he must also use his front legs and paws to dig in any considerable distance to his fox which is often the case so his front paws would be going like a front crawl stroke in swimming, what i mean is front legs wil be stretched out to elbow joint to dig on not folded up..or under...so yes to me chest size is important...so is a strong neck and back....becaucse if you think logically terriers are usually cramped up for sometimes long periods of time having to dig on to there fox....... so for me i like a terrier...to be around 12- 14 inches in size and around 12-15 lb weight ....spannable??/ yes but will allow if my fingers cant exactly touch..... as for head...well heart matters more to me ..ie..staying power..to see the job through...sometimes i think that the people who introduce bull blood too there...russell...patt..lakelands..whatever have not seen the true workers of the original breeds ...if they did they would never had too introduce bull blood... them breeds had evolved over thousands ..yes thousands.. of years to be the earth dogs that they were... terrier..means earth dog. .. ....so as the saying goes why fix something that hasnt broke???? jmo...

 

That size you like i.e. 14 inches 14 lb is what could reach a Fox in short time.

Even a 10 to 12 lb vixen is not squeezing through ever tube in her earth.

All animals would want to move comfortably in their den, but when pushed she will squeeze up a redundant side tube.

And if you are hunting Fox your dog needs to get into (nearly) every tube, not just the BIG tubes.

 

I think it was Reverend Russell himself you said he liked a 14,14,14 terrier.

14 inch TTS 14 lb weight and 14 inch around the chest.

Is there a dog out there who's chest is 20 inch around, and seems to get everywhere, of course.

But I believe if you are breeding fox terriers you need to keep an eye on their overall size.

 

And I agree with you that heart size is more important than head size.

[Zerky 133]

Terriers can be to big to work simple ive seen it, But if you have a big one try it, it might not be as big as you think,

[Cleanspade 3,324]

the other thing that you have to consider is the set of the shoulders. some terriers shoulders are set back a little . sitting out on the ribcage. this type generally have a rounder (barrel) chest. one of my old russells was like this. she got away with this as she was under twelve inch and compact. so looked small and got to most foxes. it was only when i got my old parson Trusty a narrow built terrier with an altogether different frame standing at fifteen inch. and he was getting through some bits that the little tank couldnt that i realized that you cant judge a book by the cover. having said that they where both a little on the big side. only in different ways :laugh:

[Mosby 355]

I have been really curious about size these days too. I plan to get some pups off a couple dogs I went to see half a year back. My first impression was "Holy Smokes! Those dogs are huge!" They looked two times the size of my dogs. They were tall, huge boned, long headed and muscled dogs but wiry. I went ahead and spanned the tallest one... He was spannable. I spanned the thickest most muscled dog, she was spannable. I went home and thought for a good while about those dogs. They looked to be much more powerful than my smaller dogs considering their structure. But my dogs chests are bigger. What I wonder is if the chest is all that actually matters. Do the legs truly just fold under? How does the difference of build effect the strength of the dog and it's mobility under the earth.

I am really curious to find out as I've not seen dogs built like this work before.

 

I am curious about the increase in terrier size as well.

I have seen this tall spanable chest type of terrier work and the legs do not fold up!.

In a small tube the back legs are stretched out behind the dog.

The dog is virtually dragging his back end through the tube.

 

 

p3d

 

That is what I thought might happen. I will find out but I've always kept a well balanced sort of dog that doesn't look either leggy or short. Just average mutt looking dogs but they get there and get it done. I wish I could see more dogs work than I have access to but someday I'll have first hand experience to do with all these opinions. Thus changing my opinions to wisdom and experience.