JohnGalway 1,043 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 What would happen if the rest of the EU citizens took this as an example? It would not have worked in Ireland case for a simple reason. We have two debts, budget debt and banking debt. Iceland, AFAIK, had one debt, their banks. In order to be able to tell banks to gi f**k themselves, a country must be able to cover their costs, Ireland couldn't. Therefore we needed outside money to bridge our budget deficit, otherwise no pay for civil/public servants, no social welfare, no daily services etc. The people lending us the money to bridge our budget deficit also wanted the banks saving to stop the spread of contagion. If a country could cover it's debts, then fine, it's an option for them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buch 145 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) Edit ok what i wrote was bollocks affter i just tried to find a link to prove it ... ignore me hahah Edited May 21, 2012 by Buch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tandors 888 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 yes in ireland maybe but in england with our own currency we could print our own money but instead we go to private banks to lend us money which we have to pay interest on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foxfan 479 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 What would happen if the rest of the EU citizens took this as an example? It would not have worked in Ireland case for a simple reason. We have two debts, budget debt and banking debt. Iceland, AFAIK, had one debt, their banks. In order to be able to tell banks to gi f**k themselves, a country must be able to cover their costs, Ireland couldn't. Therefore we needed outside money to bridge our budget deficit, otherwise no pay for civil/public servants, no social welfare, no daily services etc. The people lending us the money to bridge our budget deficit also wanted the banks saving to stop the spread of contagion. If a country could cover it's debts, then fine, it's an option for them. Budget debt, banking debt, it's the same. Your civil service has been deliberately swollen to create the debt to the banks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGalway 1,043 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 It is arse covering, for entirely selfish, and entirely understandable reasons. Think of it like your neighbours house is on fire, what do you do? Sit in and watch Emmerdale or try to help put out his fire to stop it spreading to your gaff. Using your scenario John... Our house is beyond repair IMO, so after I'd made sure my family was safe, I'd happily sit outside with a beer and watch the f****r burn down so I could rebuilt it next time on more stable, solid foundations! Yes, sure, if that was the case. But I don't agree that it is the case in regards to either Ireland or the Euro though The fiscal treaty will ensure that countries must balance their books, that is a GOOD thing. It will have penalties for countries who don't, that causes certainty and confidence which promotes growth. No one in their right mind gambles their money into uncertainty. Save for the markets who bet for instability to line their own pockets and keep the ball rolling. There's no other sensible choice for Ireland than to work through our debts, balance our books, negotiate what we can when we can, and try to fix the damage done by previous administrations. Letting the country fail to start again, or borrowing MORE and adding to our debt in hope of a miracle isn't on. We need to stabilise, build confidence, balance the books, become competitive and go looking for investment. Cutting costs, increasing taxes and growing the economy is the only game in town. John, without wishing to hijack the thread have you considered the implications of 'the house falling down'? I spend my days waiting for the moment that it does Let's all stop moaning about who's better off and who's to blame, and realise that we are still playing the banks games by worrying about the stock markets when in actual fact around 90% of 'money' simply doesn't exist. There are many scenarios, none good. Say if Greece jumped ship. They reintroduce the Drachma or whatever, which get's massively devalued. Yet their debts to Euro countries remain in Euro currency. So you have a currency worth say 10 times less, with the same debts. Their in the shit now, things can always get worse. The markets would gut that country while moving onto Spain and gambling on that country to cause further instability. The trick is to do a deal with Greece, stabilise the entire situation THEN implement proper rules within the currency. A good idea would also be to forumlate an exit plan for countries who wish to, which by all accounts the majority of the Greek people don't. If the entire thing collapses, well, it's crystal ball time. Global recession at best, prolonged depression at worst. Not fun. My point was this - we operate on the 'Fractional Reserve' banking model, which means that a bank only has to have 10% of the credit it can create. So if I had £10, I could lend you £100, meaning £90 has been written into existence by your signature. This is how countries and corporations operate also. As a nation, you'd think we print our own currency. Not so, as we borrow it from banks, with interest So if we start with £0, and borrow £5000 for the nation, we have to pay back, for example, £5500. The extra £500 must be made in order to repay the loan, so instead of creating our own money we are taking massive gambles and, as evidenced by the objective facts, have no way of paying it back! So, IMO, all this talk of AAA credit ratings, 'growth stimulation', and the rest of the seemingly innocent statements about how we are going to repay a private company's debts have absolutely no bearing on reality. I have a copy of a letter from the Bank of England (I'd upload it but can't on a phone), with a response to a question from a curious individual. The question went along the lines of, ''Since the gold standard has been effectively abolished, what does Mervyn King mean by his promise 'I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of' ? What will I be paid in?'' The answer said ''Banknotes have no intrinsic worth, but are accepted for value.'' In other words, this mess we find ourselves in is because we accept it, pure and simple. We allow the banks to dictate every aspect of our lives, from laws to technology, it all revolves around private companies playing 'Risk' on a computer. And we all bend over, because 'it's the done thing and if we were to question it we'd look stupid'. I'm not losing any sleep over the risky strategies employed by frankly criminal organisations, I couldn't give two hoots and that's the honest truth. Then again, most are content to where they are in life and would rather it continue, a lot like one of those semi-pleasant dreams you can't be arsed to wake up from Going away from the Gold standard was a mistake IMO. I did hear an in depth discussion on it a while back but can't remember enough about it to contribute much about it. I think it was done, basically to make more money, as gold is a finite resource (and in a huge bubble at the moment). I don't agree with the type of profiteering in todays world frankly. However, I and a lot of other people do stand to lose a lot if things go bad. I'd prefer to see that not happen. I'd also, genuinely, like for the UK to have a vote on EU membership entirely and be done with it. It's not a lot to ask is it, letting the majority have a say once in a while? In a democracy I think we all know it's about to hit the fan, personally I think we are all going to make sacrifices no matter what. Option A is to ignore the facts and carry on struggling, option B is to truly have a fresh start, with the majority deciding what is important to them after being presented with the objective facts. I think the fan can be avoided though I'm not in favour of going through the type of pain that would be seen to get to the place (which won't be an instant change over) that's called optimistically a fresh start. Some things need to be straightened out, options for countries to leave the Euro and EU in a manner which isn't damaging to those leaving or those staying. Proper rules brough in like the stability treaty to ensure the type of damage seen now won't be repeated. I had two more but I forget them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGalway 1,043 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 yes in ireland maybe but in england with our own currency we could print our own money but instead we go to private banks to lend us money which we have to pay interest on It's true we don't have the option in Ireland of just printing more money. We have to work within the situation we have here. What would happen if the rest of the EU citizens took this as an example? It would not have worked in Ireland case for a simple reason. We have two debts, budget debt and banking debt. Iceland, AFAIK, had one debt, their banks. In order to be able to tell banks to gi f**k themselves, a country must be able to cover their costs, Ireland couldn't. Therefore we needed outside money to bridge our budget deficit, otherwise no pay for civil/public servants, no social welfare, no daily services etc. The people lending us the money to bridge our budget deficit also wanted the banks saving to stop the spread of contagion. If a country could cover it's debts, then fine, it's an option for them. Budget debt, banking debt, it's the same. Your civil service has been deliberately swollen to create the debt to the banks. In Ireland it is not the same. Budget deficit and banking debt are two different debts. Unfortunately the banking debt was guarenteed by a previous administration, which shouldn't have been done. Our problem is we have to borrow money off people to cover the day to day spending to run the country, those people insisted we stop the banking contagion spreading. If we declined to meet the terms we would have had an economy that was spending in the region of €55bn and only taking in €30-35bn, so we would have had to make up a €20bn gap, which we couldn't do. Our public/civil service is a disgrace. Don't get me started on that. One of the previous administrations had the entire country, minus the civil/public workers, behind them to break the unions and sort it out, instead they caved in and implemented the Broke Park agreement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PlasticJock 539 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 John, IMO if every country woke up and throttled the bankers, problem solved. We're throwing slimfast at a fat bird and forgotten to take the food away. If one country did it, yes there would be problems. If we all did it, naive as it sounds, I honestly think the transition from being held at gunpoint to being back home safe will be a lot easier 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGalway 1,043 Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 €13.2bn is our current budget deficit here in Ireland. People are bitter about cuts in the budget of €4-6bn per year to meet our bailout goals. Can you imagine how they'd react to a cut of €13.2bn in one year? Plus damage to the economy as other countries suffer the effects of a collapse. Ths situation is manageable, another of the problems is all the tax cutting that was done under previous administrations, so now people want no tax cuts, more spending and to igmore the realities, it's pure wishful thinking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tandors 888 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 So Ireland wanted to be free from british rule (I'm no fan of Britain and would rather have a free England) and has now jumped into bed with the Europeans? Economically Europe has been conquered and not a single bullet has been fired what would be wrong with free trade within Europe was that not enough? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 So Ireland wanted to be free from british rule (I'm no fan of Britain and would rather have a free England) and has now jumped into bed with the Europeans? Economically Europe has been conquered and not a single bullet has been fired what would be wrong with free trade within Europe was that not enough? That's what I can't understand with Salmond and his lot up in Scotland. Their grand plan for 'independence' involves splitting from the union and jumping straight into closer European integration and the euro... That don't sound like independence to me, frying pan and fire comes to mind.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scothunter 12,609 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 The answer to your question malt. His anti English views and hatred of those down south, he would rather face uncertainty And jump in bed with Europe than continue with the union. The mans a f*****g arsehole. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just been trying to read up on the whole debt and deficit mess, makes for very interesting reading... One blog asking just exactly who we owe money to: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ Same blog related to it with an answer: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/the-answer-to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PlasticJock 539 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just been trying to read up on the whole debt and deficit mess, makes for very interesting reading... One blog asking just exactly who we owe money to: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ Same blog related to it with an answer: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/the-answer-to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ No, those blogs are just the opinion of one man.... ''But they're very well researched....'' Yes, but in practice things are much more complicated... ''Oh, ok then.'' That's what most will say It's amazing how none of us peasants are 'qualified' to pass judgement or offer solutions, yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires no qualifications to conduct business on our behalf Good find Malt 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just been trying to read up on the whole debt and deficit mess, makes for very interesting reading... One blog asking just exactly who we owe money to: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ Same blog related to it with an answer: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/the-answer-to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ No, those blogs are just the opinion of one man.... ''But they're very well researched....'' Yes, but in practice things are much more complicated... ''Oh, ok then.'' That's what most will say It's amazing how none of us peasants are 'qualified' to pass judgement or offer solutions, yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires no qualifications to conduct business on our behalf Good find Malt From what ive read, the whole global system is a joke. One example is the US and Japan owe each other huge debts which the pay back with to each other with interest. If I owed my mate a fiver, and he owed me a tenner, in reality all he'd owe me was a fiver. The world don't work like that though, the governments borrow what is in effect our money from banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, other countries and in the form of bonds, etc and pay it back with interest. When you look at the whole, there is no real debt, just a never ending cycle of money with the interest being siphoned off to make the select few even wealthier. I reckon the problem is that the number of people at the top of it all is becoming too large and they are becoming too wealthy for the whole system to sustain.. f**k it, have you or Foxfan got a spare tin foil hat either of you could lend me? I think I'm starting to see the light! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PlasticJock 539 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just been trying to read up on the whole debt and deficit mess, makes for very interesting reading... One blog asking just exactly who we owe money to: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ Same blog related to it with an answer: http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/the-answer-to-whom-do-we-owe-this-money-exactly/ No, those blogs are just the opinion of one man.... ''But they're very well researched....'' Yes, but in practice things are much more complicated... ''Oh, ok then.'' That's what most will say It's amazing how none of us peasants are 'qualified' to pass judgement or offer solutions, yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires no qualifications to conduct business on our behalf Good find Malt From what ive read, the whole global system is a joke. One example is the US and Japan owe each other huge debts which the pay back with to each other with interest. If I owed my mate a fiver, and he owed me a tenner, in reality all he'd owe me was a fiver. The world don't work like that though, the governments borrow what is in effect our money from banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, other countries and in the form of bonds, etc and pay it back with interest. When you look at the whole, there is no real debt, just a never ending cycle of money with the interest being siphoned off to make the select few even wealthier. I reckon the problem is that the number of people at the top of it all is becoming too large and they are becoming too wealthy for the whole system to sustain.. f**k it, have you or Foxfan got a spare tin foil hat either of you could lend me? I think I'm starting to see the light! My age and situation means I don't have much to lose whatever happens, but believe me it's a kick in the balls when you do realise the truth and IMO its harder for those older people who've worked hard their whole life, paid into a pension, and desperately want this to work. I read a brilliant piece yesterday, basically saying why do we work? If you don't you're a lazy sponger, but essentially it's slavery once removed as the middleman now is money. We honestly believe we need money to survive, when in reality we need food and shelter and that's it. Friends cost nothing, and neither does a friends help. Look at milegajo... It went on to say ''we think we're free, because we have a choice over which job to take. Essentially you're given 3 bowls of dogs**t, and have the choice of the least s**tty bowl. This man made construct (and I don't mean money, rather the monopoly money we all use nowadays), is responsible for suicides, homelessness, war and the rest, and in reality you or I never profit, just those at the top who we pay for the privilege of 'allowing' us the 'choice' of how we 'live' our lives.'' Of course, if people want to carry it on then be my guest, but can we at least have a choice please? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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