lurcher and terrier kennelled together

[skycat 6,174]

Very interesting Hutch> but why can't a learned response be interpreted as a grudge? If someone hurts me, I might be entitled to bear them a grudge, but you could also say that my attitude is a learned response.

 

Regarding the top dog thing. My old bitch is very much top dog when it comes to resources. Let's say I put the grill pan down on the floor for the dogs to do a 'pre-wash' on which I do all the time. They all share the pan without growling, until the old bitch comes in, then all the others back off and allow her to clean the pan by herself, BUT only if she growls at the others. If she doesn't assert herself, which she doesn't always, probably because the pan doesn't smell really amazing (I've probably burnt the sausages!) they all share just fine. BUT, in other situations, the male dogs may take precedence. The whole thing about packs is that whilst we like to say there is a rigid hierarchy, the reality is that the situation is a lot more fluid than we humans like to think. Possession is nine tenths of the law with dogs, but its the way in which an individual takes possession of something which makes it interesting.

 

I quite agree with you about the sex drive: we have only one male who has sired a litter. The other males, younger, though apparently more forceful in character and very driven, defer to him, although he doesn't appear to be the toughest cookie in the jar. His status has been set by the fact that he's mated a bitch.

 

We have most of our lurchers in the house, and it is obvious that the most senior in rank take the best places to sleep, BUT, once again, this situation is fluid, and if a desirable bed becomes vacant, a subordinate dog will quickly occupy that bed. When the senior dog returns from having a drink or a pee or whatever, and it finds its place has been taken, it won't necessarily try and oust the other dog from that bed: possession being nine tenths of the law again.

 

Problems can arise if two dogs of similar rank want the same bed, but it is also important to remember that bitches may appear to change status depending on where they are in their reproductive cycle. A bitch about to come in season may well act as though her status has suddenly risen. We kennel in season bitches out of the way of the other dogs and bitches whilst they are on heat. The very fact that we do this lets all the dogs know that we are in control of their lives, both dogs and bitches.

 

Some owners don't realise just how controlling they need to be to get their dogs to live in harmony with each other. It doesn't have to be in their faces controlling, just little things in daily life: like not ever tolerating aggression between pack members, insisting on absolute obedience in specific situations. Huntsmen and others who control whole packs of hounds do this automatically, almost without thinking, but they also know which behaviours they can allow: such as older dogs telling younger ones off for behaving inappropriately.

 

This is a really interesting thread and I look forward to seeing some more useful input from those with more than one dog.................................

[undisputed 1,664]

Mate of mine used to kennel his lurcher and terrier together went ok for a awhile, but something kicked them off and the terrier was killed....best seperate for peice of mind

[rob190364 2,594]

 

I quite agree with you about the sex drive: we have only one male who has sired a litter. The other males, younger, though apparently more forceful in character and very driven, defer to him, although he doesn't appear to be the toughest cookie in the jar. His status has been set by the fact that he's mated a bitch.

 

I don't agree with that statement at all, in natural pack orders a male will sire a litter because it's the highest in the pecking order, it doesn't work the other way round....as in it wouldn't automatically become top dog just because it's the only one that's sired a litter.

[Ratreeper 441]

“OK, maybe grudge does sound a bit anthropomorphic, but bear this in mind: we expect our dogs to live together in harmony. Our dogs know what is expected of them. They know that we don't like them to be aggressive towards other dogs, so, for the most part, they try and live as we want them to. Because if they attack each other, we'll get mad at them. By the simple fact of expecting our dogs to live peacefully together we are putting them under stress: not all the time, and not all dogs. But it does happen.”

Agreed, some dogs might want to attack but will respect the rules you give them.

 

For example: I had a very good lurcher bitch with a very short fuse: if another dog barged her she saw it as an act of aggression. In short, she was a pain in the ar*e around other dogs. One day, before I realised the extent of her problem, she piled in on another lurcher who had crashed into her whilst playing. This bitch tried to kill the crasher, who wasn't a nasty dog in any way. I got them apart, and the bitch who started the fight seemed absolutely fine with the one she'd tried to kill. Problem was that this bitch, the short fuse bitch, had a terrier mentality: if something, any animal, aggressed her, she had to kill it, but it wasn't personal with her, just an instant reaction. However, the other bitch, the one who had taken the brunt of this retaliation, never forgot, and if I'd left them loose together even for a second, she'd have tried to kill the short fuse bitch: now if that isn't holding a grudge I don't know what is. I ended up having to get rid of this bitch although she was absolutely fine with all other dogs and bitches: I had to keep the short fuse bitch purely because she was such an amazingly good worker, besides which, I wouldn't have passed her on to anyone else knowing what she was like.

But I disagree this is resentment/a grudge, your dog reacted immediately to the other lurcher as expected (that is when dogs react). Then the other lurcher rationally learnt to fear your short-tempered lurcher and reacted accordingly in the future, again immediately. I would agree it was a grudge if you witnessed your bitch get crashed in to, then later on that day decided to attack the other lurcher for the first time. You would have to see this happen a few times to be sure what was the cause though..

 

That is an extreme example, but there's plenty more. I have two terriers, which can go out and work fine with each other, but they are never allowed near each other at home: because they are both very reactive, and even the excitement prior to exercise gets them so wound up that they'd fly in at each other, which would then lead to a full scale fight: that is the drive and energy thing. There's no personal malice involved, they just get in 'drive', in the zone where they're like coiled springs waiting to explode. Once out and doing stuff they can be side by side on a carcase with no growl or anything at all at each other because their energy is directed where it should be, on their quarry, not each other.

This doesn’t sound like resentment either, just pent-up exciteable energy they want to release. Or possibly trying to decide who leaves first, impossible to tell without seeing them but it is definitely not a grudge.

That's also why some people who keep dogs in the house together find that their dogs act up just before going out for a walk or to work: the dogs are pent up in themselves, and with only each other to release that energy. But it can also lead to further problems if a fight kicks off at this time. You should see my black Airedale lurcher just before going out: she growls and leaps round her dam like a lunatic, lunging at her ears and throat. It's all very innocent, but if she did it around my black terrier, there'd be trouble, because the terrier would take it as a real threat, and react accordingly. The lurcher would in all probability react to that reaction, and before you know it you have a problem. So the terrier comes out of her kennel last once the lurchers are already in the van. Once they're out on exercise there's no problem at all because they're all busy doing what dogs do where there's plenty of scent.

Again, just pent-up energy as you say yourself. The black terrier again reacts immediately, so I don’t class this as a grudge either.

[Ratreeper 441]

"but why can't a learned response be interpreted as a grudge? If someone hurts me, I might be entitled to bear them a grudge, but you could also say that my attitude is a learned response."

 

A grudge means not reacting immediately, a dog will always react the moment something happens. A dog that has been attacked by another has learned to fear it, so when it sees it again it might very well immediately attack to defend itself. If however it didn't immediately attack but acted calmly, then attacked at an opportune moment I would class that has holding resentment if there was no trigger made by the other dog. It is an interesting and complex subject, but like all dog behaviour questions every dog is different so it is difficult to make absolute statements. But I would say dogs live moment to moment and react to the situation and triggers, often body language can be missed that causes an attack but again I do not believe dogs plot for the future like you describe. Very few animals are even intelligent enough to do this, nevermind if it is in there nature.

[skycat 6,174]

No, the lurcher (her name was Sweet) that was attacked for crashing into the other (Elka) didn't fear her afterwards: she just hated her, and would have attacked her if I hadn't been on top of things. And not just that day either. It was unfinished business as far as Sweet was concerned. Sweet wasn't afraid of anything living. She was totally unafraid of Elka both before and afterwards. Her body language was not one of a fearful dog, but instead, one that was intent on killing the other> there's a big difference between attacking through fear and attacking aggressively through a desire to inflict damage: retaliation.

 

I've often wondered what made both such good fox dogs: Elka wasn't bitten by the first four foxes she had, but she still drove into them with pure aggression. She was never a sociable dog either, even as a pup. Sweet, on the other hand, got on with everyone, was completely non aggressive to other dogs, and was generally an easy bitch all round. It was only Elka that she hated, from the moment that incident happened.

 

I wasn't trying to make out that the terriers harboured resentment: I thought I'd explained that. I was just trying to show what can cause a fight: in the terrier case: unresolved drive which needed an outlet: anything will do.

 

I don't actually think that dogs plot for the future either, but in Sweet's case, she definitely wanted to inflict damage on Elka each time she saw her after that incident. Elka, on the other hand, was completely indifferent to Sweet. OK, you could argue that this was a status thing, that Elka had beaten Sweet up when Sweet thought that she should be the higher ranking bitch, which would account for why she, Sweet, felt the need to finish the business by re-establishing the status that Elka had threatened when she turned on her after the collision.

 

Like you say, the hierarchy thing is a complex one, but each time something kicks off between dogs, it pays to look at the behaviour which went on long before the fight or quarrel in question.

[morton 5,368]

I believe dogs certainly hold grudges,ive seen it so many times with a pack,once 2 fall out there is always an underlying atmosphere between them,they may work together for months and then the most trivial of incidents will trigger a response from one that the other looks to capitalise on,usually leading to a set to.Ive housed lurchers and terriers together at times,i knew the dogs temperaments and nature,ive rarely had trouble,most of the time the mutts will be fine,a little snap and snarl and the dogs soon settle into the routine of kennel life together,but now and then,you misread a situation,you misjudge the dogs mood and end up with an injured or dead terrier.I will never risk another terrier with a lurcher,a decent terrier is hard to replace.

[littlefish 587]

Regardless of how much we humans wreck our brains trying to interpret how dogs feel, think and interact, how much we try to reassure ourselves and others that 'my dogs don't mess about, they know i'm the boss' imagine how your guts would turn to water if you came home one day and found one dog had ripped the other to pieces - that dog, probably the smaller dog, the terrier, would have NO option of escape if it was penned with another dog. I imagine that would be heartbreaking having to shovel it up. I wouldn't take the chance.

[s.e.s.k.u 1,893]

good thread this! iv got a terrier bitch and lurcher dog kenneled together but i get another terrier dog pup at wkend and definately going to seperate both dogs but might split them all up now iv read this!

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

To the people that say don't kennel terrier and lurcher together, is that just for an outdoor kennel (i.e. confined space), or would you apply the same rule for dogs that are kept in the house? Obviously you wouldn't feed them together, or leave toys or chews out. But kept in the same house with plenty of room, would that be OK?

 

Hows it going Rob!

 

I think its different in the house, because the house is YOUR place, the dogs should know that you're in charge of that house, you're the dominant one so any messing around then its you they've got to deal with! In a Kennel its different, that Kennel becomes their own space where you dont even go apart from cleaning it out and feeding them. In the house you can keep an eye on them easier too. So I personally don't think it applies (apart from acceptional cases of course).

[hutch6 550]

I've seen some folk cause some real issues amongst their dogs by getting involved with disputes. The most common cause it that they have one dog a while and then they get anothera few months or years down the line. We automatically assume that the dog that has been there the longest is top dog as it is their house/territory, whatever you like to call it.

 

New dog comes in and within a day or two the dogs are scrapping over something that is not very clear to the owner but to the dogs is very clear. Old dog gives new dog a bit of a show because new dog has presented a challenge to soemthing to the old dog. New dog then has two options - back down "I am weaker than you and you have right of way" or challenge back "I am stronger than you and I have right of way". If new dog chooses to challenge back then it will do so with the old dog presenting a challenge, new dog raises the level and so on until one dog raises the level to an extent that one of them is not willing to take things further and will back down leaving whichever dog to claim whatever was being challenged for. If the owner gets involved at this point and splits the dogs up or chooses to favour the dog that is not the top dog in this particular incident then yes, further disputes will always occur because no hierachy was established and the weaker dog may have gotten favoured and put as a priority by the human removing the other dog's expected right to that particular thing as a priority.

 

Left unsettled the issue will arise again and again and escalate quicker.

 

Left to it dogs will generally sort themselves out quicker, clearer and without injury. Without injury may seem wishful thinking but unless you have two dogs that are closely matched and intent on having priority or do not have the ability to back down they sound worse than they are when the disputes arise. If the are as I have described then yes, things could become worse with them fighting to the death.

 

The mate I mentioned with the springers stated that one dog would always go for the other at feeding times. They had scalded the dog for it's reaction and even leashed it to prevent the lunging etc and eventually took to feeding them in seperate rooms but this resulted in the aggressor kicking off when locked away - stopped them fighting at least. I was asked round to see if I could see anything that could cause it.

The first thing I saw was that the aggressor was being fed second. I asked why this was and they said that they fed her second so she wouldn't be aggressive as they were putting the other as top dog. Next feeding time I asked them to feed the aggressor first. Nothing. The placid dog didnt bat an eyelid and hasn't since at feeding times and they can be fed in the same area without issue.

 

If I either of the collies first Lucy will go to them, bark at them and force them off of the food. She gets her food put down first (they have to sit and wait before they eat) and then I can put the collies' food down next and there is no issue at all with all dogs eating from bowls not 6inch from each other.

 

Dogs come and go in my house, or at least they did last year before I got three permanent ones, so with two established resident dogs and a new dog every month or so it was a great learning experience to watch what happened. Soem dogs would come in and not even bother about making soemthing their own and would accept the challenge of the slightest motion towards them by one of the resident dogs and after a while just a tail raise was enough to get the message across or an extended glance. Others would accept the challenge and battle back with either the resident dog or the foster backing down and the same issue never came about again as the lesson was learned. Big dogs (I'm talking a GSD collie x tha's back was waste height when stood on four paws and I'm 6'1) to little 14week pups flowed through my door. Manners were learned, areas were claimed etc yet no dog was ever injured, there were some horrible sounding squabbles but they never escalated to the extent that one got injured.

 

I had one pup of 6months, thought tt be dog aggressive but was just over excited and didn't know how to play, that was with me for a while (only foster dog I wisjh to this day i had kept). I walked her with the ex GF and Jess (the GSDxHusky) one day and they were running round playing and rolling about as they were both quiet boisterous and as they displayed the same body language it was easy for them to communicate (some dogs are aggressive to other breeds simply because of the breed traits - spitz tails to some dogs appear as a direct challenge because of how the tail is naturally held) and all was going great. Suddenly the pup went to see what my ex was all about and say hello etc. Out of nowhere Jess rocketed into her, there was a scuffle of about 5secs which I split up and it left the young pup with a ripped ear and bit of a battered ego. There was blood streaming from the wound so I spent some time stemming the flow and all was ok again. The moment I let go of the pup she ran over to Jess and they were rolling around playing, sniffing stuff together again and play bowing. Anytime they ran anywhere near my ex the pup would stop short and make sure that Jess was between her and my ex. We met up a fair few times after the incident and the pup never once had a go back or challenged her.

 

To be on the safe side though seperate kennels for peace of mind is always the best solution as others have said. If you can eliminate risk then do so.

[littlefish 587]

To the people that say don't kennel terrier and lurcher together, is that just for an outdoor kennel (i.e. confined space), or would you apply the same rule for dogs that are kept in the house? Obviously you wouldn't feed them together, or leave toys or chews out. But kept in the same house with plenty of room, would that be OK?

 

Hows it going Rob!

 

I think its different in the house, because the house is YOUR place, the dogs should know that you're in charge of that house, you're the dominant one so any messing around then its you they've got to deal with! In a Kennel its different, that Kennel becomes their own space where you dont even go apart from cleaning it out and feeding them. In the house you can keep an eye on them easier too. So I personally don't think it applies (apart from acceptional cases of course).

 

But are you there 24 hours a day 365 days a year to supervise them...............?

Edited April 12, 2012 by littlefish

[matt1979 766]

i and my family have had working terriers and lurchers (mainly greyhound type) for my entire life and other than one fight over a ball.I can not remember any other incident of genuine agression between dogs, the majority of these workers were entire and generally bitches. Please do not reply with daft comments about having pet dogs, as this hasnt been the case. No doubt there may well have been a few issues in the kennels at times but they were never observed and couldnt have been major .e. no injuries occured. My dogs now live in the house, admittedly only two and i can honestly say they have never had an disputes to my knowledge. My point being i definately accept that some dogs arent worth the risk and it would be a sickener to return to a dead dog from a kennel fight, BUT, no doubt dogs can, do and i feel benefit from living/ sleeping together, this is my personal belief and you may well say i and my family have been lucky, maybe so. I have followed basic rules and they have served me well and i dont claim to be an expert but they have worked for me to date and hence i will share them. 1. Make sure the dogs have ample sleeping space particularly beds, 2. they are generally to knackered to give a toss about playing around nevermind fighting 3. i dont tolerate any over excitable behaviour in and around living qaurters i.e. the home (you may criticise but it has served me well) and 4. i always raise dogs from a pup as i feel you get a ,uch clearer picture of a character. Only the person who raises the dogs can make a judgement on kenneling and obviously more experienced folk have suggested not to kennel together, however, whilst there is potential risk there are undoubted benefits in my eyes as well. Interesting thread cheers matt.

[Tyla 3,179]

But, once again, it doesn't always work like that, and some dogs may appear to hold a grudge for reasons you don't even know. Suppose one dog has barged the other getting through a door way: the dog that got barged, maybe slammed against the door frame and hurt, may well be harbouring resentment, which in time, may boil over over something entirely unnconnected.

 

I generally agree with what you say, but since when do dogs hold a grudge? I have never known anything like it, they might remember getting hurt but I think you are being anthropomorphic if you think a dog will hold a grudge against another dog. I would say that if a dog thinks another dog has crossed the line it will attack straight away and sort it out, then the balance has been restored and they carry on. I don't think dogs hold any resentment towards a leader dog, they know their place and live from day to day.

 

I have a terrier that holds a grudge, if he thinks he cant win a fight when he wants to he will wait til the other dog is asleep or distracted and then go after him. He used to be really bad for it but I spent alot of time trying to get it out of him and he's been fine for a while. Still, I could never trust the little shit.

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

To the people that say don't kennel terrier and lurcher together, is that just for an outdoor kennel (i.e. confined space), or would you apply the same rule for dogs that are kept in the house? Obviously you wouldn't feed them together, or leave toys or chews out. But kept in the same house with plenty of room, would that be OK?

 

Hows it going Rob!

 

I think its different in the house, because the house is YOUR place, the dogs should know that you're in charge of that house, you're the dominant one so any messing around then its you they've got to deal with! In a Kennel its different, that Kennel becomes their own space where you dont even go apart from cleaning it out and feeding them. In the house you can keep an eye on them easier too. So I personally don't think it applies (apart from acceptional cases of course).

 

But are you there 24 hours a day 365 days a year to supervise them...............?

 

Obviously not, but if you were keeping dogs in the house then a bit of common sense would see to it that you take precautions when you're not there (Cage/crates).