Albertj v Leeview

[AlbertJ 569]

Anyone who goes back through posts relating to our game fairs or any opinion I put up on this forum will note that waiting in the wings to constantly offer apparently only negative criticism is 'Leeview'.

 

Now any of you know who have had spats on this forum with me know I normally don't hold a grudge - generally we argue the point out - sometimes you come round to my way of thinking or I take your crticism on board and improve our events by taking cognisance of it or we, 'like gentlemen,' agree to disagree and get on with our lives.

 

Now I don't know what I have done to upset 'Leeview or Sean' but this appears to have got extremely personal and rather than polluting other threads by Leeview's almost incessant attacks me, on our events, any positive initiatives we take on behalf of terrier, lurcher and whippet enthusiasts in Ireland and now our judges I thought I would set up THIS thread so if LV wishes to attack ME or OUR events he can do so without catching other people in the crossfire.

 

To respond to his latest post:

 

1. I had said " As far as it is relevant John Beach was the land agent of Shanes. He was friendly with the guy who ran Chatsworth and would not have needed you to get him tickets." YOU said : Who mentioned Chatsworth? it was infact the CLA at Harewood House" Well this demonstrates just how factual your comments are : Your earlier post said :

" (were nt you supposed to come over to England with him around that time to see how lurcher shows were run over here? SI. awsked me for some passes for you both) When I was organising the lurcher side of things at Chatsworth. "

 

2. You had said : "Anyone claiming to work their dogs when they dont would soon be found out IMHO".

 

I had said : How would it be found out at a show that they didn't work their dogs - you have only to see the spats on this forum about whether people work their dogs or not or how well ? But I suppose you would claim to be able to look at a guy and say right away whether he worked his dogs - and if you thought he did to say he would make a good judge! I think I would be rather better at watching a person judge and realise he had never judged before and didn't have a clue!

Unable to deal with this point you said : "It might not be revealed at the show that the person was lying about working his dogs but its funny how it comes out in time Did nt this happen with a terrier judge you had at the 5 nations?" I assume the judge you referred to was Foxgun Tom : As far as I am aware Tom did not lie about having worked his dogs - in fact he does work his dogs but they are GSPs. I don't think he or I ever claimed he worked terriers. But he has judged at shows before. Tom was invited to judge as ONE of THREE judges for the Five Nations in effectively an 'all rounder' capacity because the concept of the event was his.

I think you owe Tom an apology. Once again you have attacked someone's reputation to try to get at me!

 

3. I had said : Correcting what was obviously a misquote by you again: " Did you not note that I said a 'Variety of judges' not one ! I wasn't suggesting that an aspiring judge picked out what someone else had picked but through getting experience of shows to support his or her working experience acquired an eye for what constituted a good dog in terms of conformation. I suppose you think some 'who works their dogs' can wander into a show perhaps for the first time and know what to look for?'

 

You said:"getting experience of shows to support his or her working experience" if thats the case I doubt they're ready for judging. Again you make my point entirely as the point I was making that someone who simply had 'worked their dogs' without experience of having been successful in shows and judging was not ready for judging.

 

4. You said : 'I did not claim that such judging experience could be had in a children's class where the handler not the dog is judged - perhaps that where you got your experience!

NEVER EVER JUDGED A CHILD HANDLER CLASS on principal if Im judging Im there to judge dogs not children : Why on earth did you bring this up - how was it relevant? I didn't claim I judged children's classes - I didn't suggest that potential lurcher or terrier judges judge children's classes!

 

5. I had said : If you or anyone else could assess a dog or any animal's working ability simply by looking at it you would be in huge demand round the race tracks and horse sales!

 

You Came Back with : Have you ever watched hounds being judged? they judge without touching the hounds and these hounds are bred for work (not showing) from workers. Now this really does show your lack of knwledge and/or logic. Hounds are judged with minimum contact by the judge BUT he or she is NOT assessing their working ability in the ring but their conformation and type. Once again you make my point for me!

 

 

6. You had said : "and how would you feel if a Toy breed specialist judge an Open Field Trial'. I had said : Once again you make my point working and show are two different disciplnes. I would not ask a toy show judge to judge a Field Trial OR a FT judge to judge Toy breeds! You appear to be saying that someone who has trained a dog for shooting should be able to judge all breeds at shows!

 

Apparently unable to answer this or to understand the logic of it . You said : No completely misunderstood or ducked the question? I refered to have you ever judged a TOY breed giving BOB? Read back this is NOT what you asked . What would your gundog associates make of a toy bred specialist judging their gundogs on the basis of the judge has done a lot of winning in another breed so must know what a good dog should be like?

 

FACT : All rounder judges are quite common in KC shows - in fact the BIS judge at Crufts 2012 was a gundog specialist who lectures on gundog conformation and movement and he gave BIS to a Toy Dog!

 

 

7. I had said: Now having replied to some of your bizarre analogies - let me leave you with one of my own. In a soccer crowd at a cup final virtually all of the fans would express an interest and knowledge of the game. Most of them would claim 'to have played a bit' and some might still be good club players with medals to prove it. Now if the referee was to become ill - would you suggest the authorities would go into the crowd and pluck out a 'working footballer' to take over ? Do they hell they replace him with a qualified replacement.

Rather bizarrely you said: Excellent point there AJ now we're getting close,and I thik you've answered the question

THEY GET SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY' RE DOING AND NOT SOMEONE IN THE CROWD - This is exactly where I came in saying that someone solely claiming they 'work their dogs' is unlikely to make a good judge they need more including ideally experience of judging.

 

 

8. I said : Whereas all you have done is snipe from the sidelines on an extremely vehement attack on our innovations, events and me. Can I suggest rather than keeping trying to stir the pot here in Ireland , you let me get on with making positive improvements to our events and helping other similar events and if you don't have anything positive to contribute you concentrate on more positive things in England!

 

You Replied : AJ your trying to run lurcher shows at your shows through many years of experience organising and running shows from local hunt shows to massive game fairs,your shows are way behind what has been run in the UK, criticism and problems are par for the course and unless your too thick skinned to take it in so be it you carry on doing it how you want.

 

 

I respond: 1. I am unaware as to whether you have ever been to any of our shows or fairs - but if your overall logic is consistent with your posts then I assume that hasn't or wouldn't prevent you thinking it is relevant to preventing you criticising them - is that logical, fair or sensible?

 

2.You claim you have experience of 'organising massive Game Fairs' - how come I have never heard of you - which massive Game Fair have you organised?

 

3. You appear to claim expertise and Kudos from an association with events rather than being the organiser of them - another example of this 'name dropping' is your claim of ' I also appeared on coneycatcher2 working in the dales and also the Lurchermania video' .

 

4. You allege our events have fallen behind others in the UK - Since I took a personal interest in the terriers, lurchers and whippets at our events we have produced prize funds unrivalled in Ireland and matched by very few shows in the UK. Which of the shows in the UK that you claim we have fallen behind have better prize funds than Shanes or Birr?

 

 

Albertj

[Themaverick 110]

ALBERT, I CAN SEE THIS "LEEVIEW" HAS ANNOYED YOU...DONT BE DRAWN IN TO THE KEYBOARD WARS....AS IM SURE SHE/HE ONLY COMES ON HERE TO RILE PEOPLE....AND WITH OUT PEOPLE KNOWING WHO THE PERSON IS BEHIND THE KEYBOARD USER NAME, THERE COMMENTS DONT MEAN JACK TO ANYONE BEYOND THERE OWN TINY MIND...FIONA

[AlbertJ 569]

ALBERT, I CAN SEE THIS "LEEVIEW" HAS ANNOYED YOU...DONT BE DRAWN IN TO THE KEYBOARD WARS....AS IM SURE SHE/HE ONLY COMES ON HERE TO RILE PEOPLE....AND WITH OUT PEOPLE KNOWING WHO THE PERSON IS BEHIND THE KEYBOARD USER NAME, THERE COMMENTS DONT MEAN JACK TO ANYONE BEYOND THERE OWN TINY MIND...FIONA

 

Fiona,

 

I appreciate your post.

 

What annoyed me most about him is his attacks on other people as part of some vendetta he appears to want with me. Quite frankly I don't give a toss about people like him criticising me personally. But he persistently attacks our events, without him possibly even been to them, and whilst I head up the events it is a reflection on other good people within our team. He has really irritated me by his attack on Rose and Foxgun Tom in an apparent attempt to get at me.

 

That's why I put up this thread so he can do what he appears to want to do on a personal 'one to one' basis and not pollute reasonable discussion on other threads!

 

Albertj

[peterosborne8 55]

Hey Albertj, just keep on doing the good work your doing In Ireland there are a lot of people who enjoy then wether they are worker or shop people. 34 years at Shane castle says enough. Maybe one day I will get over to the motherland to sample it!

Atb

[AlbertJ 569]

Hey Albertj, just keep on doing the good work your doing In Ireland there are a lot of people who enjoy then wether they are worker or shop people. 34 years at Shane castle says enough. Maybe one day I will get over to the motherland to sample it! Atb

 

Peter,

 

No time like the present for our 50th fair. Special ferry rates and accommodation rates available - a weekend for two for c £250!

[Guest thebigdog]

build a bridge and get over it

[pigsy 34]

lifes to short just live it

[Rake aboot 4,935]

Well. you have stated that you have put this thread up, so that people can read information about your events without all the bickering between you, then you have proceeded to bicker on about what he said you said, he said she said etc etc,,without putting up all the "information" about your events,,

 

Sort it out, or grow up ,, This is just another start of a bitchfest between you, making you as bad as him.

 

ATB

Rake

[AlbertJ 569]

Rake,

 

Sorry you misunderstood me. LV has been constantly on my information posts including on the recent one about our judges. I put up THIS post so that if he wants to continue his attacks on me he can without involving other people. It appears to be very personal with him so I am giving him his opportunity.

 

I do understand were you are coming from and if his attacks were solely on me I would ignore him.

 

Albertj

[dogs balls 7]

Not wise it's like being back in primary school and Albert is the wee boy that says my daddy is better than your daddy what I have is better than yours lol keep going Albert its good Craic

[sikastag_1 689]

.....

Edited September 3, 2019 by grant_c

[stop.end 4,079]

lads have a bit of self respect ffs and knock all this bitching on the head right away....... its not the fcuking playground...any guest or anti reading this must think some dog men are a right bunch of ould women and numptys fcuk sake...yous are grown men ... i think lol :victory:

[AlbertJ 569]

No bitching just answering Leeview's attack on our judges.

 

Quite frankly don't really care whether he attacks me personally but I do care if he tries to get at me by attacking other people.

 

Now I don't think I know Leeview - I certainly don't think I've ever done anything to him but if virtually everything that is put up on this forum about our events is attacked by him.

 

This thread was to give him an outlet to attack me personally if he wishes and leave other people out of it - alternatively he can pm me and the thread can die or be removed.

 

Albertj

[AlbertJ 569]

Anyone who goes back through posts relating to our game fairs or any opinion I put up on this forum will note that waiting in the wings to constantly offer apparently only negative criticism is 'Leeview'.

 

Now any of you know who have had spats on this forum with me know I normally don't hold a grudge - generally we argue the point out - sometimes you come round to my way of thinking or I take your crticism on board and improve our events by taking cognisance of it or we, 'like gentlemen,' agree to disagree and get on with our lives.

 

Now I don't know what I have done to upset 'Leeview or Sean' but this appears to have got extremely personal and rather than polluting other threads by Leeview's almost incessant attacks me, on our events, any positive initiatives we take on behalf of terrier, lurcher and whippet enthusiasts in Ireland and now our judges I thought I would set up THIS thread so if LV wishes to attack ME or OUR events he can do so without catching other people in the crossfire.

 

To respond to his latest post:

 

1. I had said " As far as it is relevant John Beach was the land agent of Shanes. He was friendly with the guy who ran Chatsworth and would not have needed you to get him tickets." YOU said : Who mentioned Chatsworth? it was infact the CLA at Harewood House" Well this demonstrates just how factual your comments are : Your earlier post said :

" (were nt you supposed to come over to England with him around that time to see how lurcher shows were run over here? SI. awsked me for some passes for you both) When I was organising the lurcher side of things at Chatsworth. "

 

2. You had said : "Anyone claiming to work their dogs when they dont would soon be found out IMHO".

 

I had said : How would it be found out at a show that they didn't work their dogs - you have only to see the spats on this forum about whether people work their dogs or not or how well ? But I suppose you would claim to be able to look at a guy and say right away whether he worked his dogs - and if you thought he did to say he would make a good judge! I think I would be rather better at watching a person judge and realise he had never judged before and didn't have a clue!

Unable to deal with this point you said : "It might not be revealed at the show that the person was lying about working his dogs but its funny how it comes out in time Did nt this happen with a terrier judge you had at the 5 nations?" I assume the judge you referred to was Foxgun Tom : As far as I am aware Tom did not lie about having worked his dogs - in fact he does work his dogs but they are GSPs. I don't think he or I ever claimed he worked terriers. But he has judged at shows before. Tom was invited to judge as ONE of THREE judges for the Five Nations in effectively an 'all rounder' capacity because the concept of the event was his.

I think you owe Tom an apology. Once again you have attacked someone's reputation to try to get at me!

 

3. I had said : Correcting what was obviously a misquote by you again: " Did you not note that I said a 'Variety of judges' not one ! I wasn't suggesting that an aspiring judge picked out what someone else had picked but through getting experience of shows to support his or her working experience acquired an eye for what constituted a good dog in terms of conformation. I suppose you think some 'who works their dogs' can wander into a show perhaps for the first time and know what to look for?'

 

You said:"getting experience of shows to support his or her working experience" if thats the case I doubt they're ready for judging. Again you make my point entirely as the point I was making that someone who simply had 'worked their dogs' without experience of having been successful in shows and judging was not ready for judging.

 

4. You said : 'I did not claim that such judging experience could be had in a children's class where the handler not the dog is judged - perhaps that where you got your experience!

NEVER EVER JUDGED A CHILD HANDLER CLASS on principal if Im judging Im there to judge dogs not children : Why on earth did you bring this up - how was it relevant? I didn't claim I judged children's classes - I didn't suggest that potential lurcher or terrier judges judge children's classes!

 

5. I had said : If you or anyone else could assess a dog or any animal's working ability simply by looking at it you would be in huge demand round the race tracks and horse sales!

 

You Came Back with : Have you ever watched hounds being judged? they judge without touching the hounds and these hounds are bred for work (not showing) from workers. Now this really does show your lack of knwledge and/or logic. Hounds are judged with minimum contact by the judge BUT he or she is NOT assessing their working ability in the ring but their conformation and type. Once again you make my point for me!

 

 

6. You had said : "and how would you feel if a Toy breed specialist judge an Open Field Trial'. I had said : Once again you make my point working and show are two different disciplnes. I would not ask a toy show judge to judge a Field Trial OR a FT judge to judge Toy breeds! You appear to be saying that someone who has trained a dog for shooting should be able to judge all breeds at shows!

 

Apparently unable to answer this or to understand the logic of it . You said : No completely misunderstood or ducked the question? I refered to have you ever judged a TOY breed giving BOB? Read back this is NOT what you asked . What would your gundog associates make of a toy bred specialist judging their gundogs on the basis of the judge has done a lot of winning in another breed so must know what a good dog should be like?

 

FACT : All rounder judges are quite common in KC shows - in fact the BIS judge at Crufts 2012 was a gundog specialist who lectures on gundog conformation and movement and he gave BIS to a Toy Dog!

 

 

7. I had said: Now having replied to some of your bizarre analogies - let me leave you with one of my own. In a soccer crowd at a cup final virtually all of the fans would express an interest and knowledge of the game. Most of them would claim 'to have played a bit' and some might still be good club players with medals to prove it. Now if the referee was to become ill - would you suggest the authorities would go into the crowd and pluck out a 'working footballer' to take over ? Do they hell they replace him with a qualified replacement.

Rather bizarrely you said: Excellent point there AJ now we're getting close,and I thik you've answered the question

THEY GET SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY' RE DOING AND NOT SOMEONE IN THE CROWD - This is exactly where I came in saying that someone solely claiming they 'work their dogs' is unlikely to make a good judge they need more including ideally experience of judging.

 

 

8. I said : Whereas all you have done is snipe from the sidelines on an extremely vehement attack on our innovations, events and me. Can I suggest rather than keeping trying to stir the pot here in Ireland , you let me get on with making positive improvements to our events and helping other similar events and if you don't have anything positive to contribute you concentrate on more positive things in England!

 

You Replied : AJ your trying to run lurcher shows at your shows through many years of experience organising and running shows from local hunt shows to massive game fairs,your shows are way behind what has been run in the UK, criticism and problems are par for the course and unless your too thick skinned to take it in so be it you carry on doing it how you want.

 

 

I respond: 1. I am unaware as to whether you have ever been to any of our shows or fairs - but if your overall logic is consistent with your posts then I assume that hasn't or wouldn't prevent you thinking it is relevant to preventing you criticising them - is that logical, fair or sensible?

 

2.You claim you have experience of 'organising massive Game Fairs' - how come I have never heard of you - which massive Game Fair have you organised?

 

3. You appear to claim expertise and Kudos from an association with events rather than being the organiser of them - another example of this 'name dropping' is your claim of ' I also appeared on coneycatcher2 working in the dales and also the Lurchermania video' .

 

4. You allege our events have fallen behind others in the UK - Since I took a personal interest in the terriers, lurchers and whippets at our events we have produced prize funds unrivalled in Ireland and matched by very few shows in the UK. Which of the shows in the UK that you claim we have fallen behind have better prize funds than Shanes or Birr?

 

 

Albertj

 

 

 

 

LV,

 

I see you posted again on the Ballywalter judging thread - I have made it clear that I will only answer your questions, ponts or assertions on this personal thread or through pms - although I suspect you are more interested in voicing your criticisms publicly

 

To answer the points /your questions on the judging thread:

 

 

 

LV "Point 1) if you could highlight to me, exactly where in all of my 6 replies have I spoke of Rose(other than page 3 reply34) or Fox Gun Tom for that matter? You made an attack on us not appointing working judges - and as Rose was the only only one of our three judges who doesn't claim to work her dogs by implication her - although I now hear she has worked her dogs in the past : See above relating to Foxgun Tom- he was the only one of the terrier judges who didn't claim to work terriers - were you referring to someone else?

 

LV 2)I have repeatedly asked if you and your gundog fraternity would be happy with a judge that was not familiar with gundogs being appointed at your field trials as a judge?~I await your answer. Of course not : but again your logic is awry - I would not suggest a lurcher or terrier judge who was unfamiliar with working terriers or lurchers be appointed to judge a working test for terriers or lurcher BUT Showing is completely different. The judge is NOT judging and CANNOT judge working ability in a showring. In a Field Trial they ARE judging working ability.

 

LV 3)You asked for suggestions last year for your shows,I suggested free entry for exhibitors to your shows or holding the shows outside the main show ie no entrance fee to the game fairs,as does happen in the UK(I did name the shows last year) - can you give an example of which Game Fairs in the UK give FREE ADMISSION to Terrier, Lurcher and whippet competitors other than pre qualified dogs? and you did not feel that was a good idea.You came up with a free pass if the exhibitors paid in to one show they got into the other show free. I did NOT think it was a good idea - this normally only happens when the show organisers want to 'keep the lurchers and terriers out of sight' or have been told to do so. We are against this form of 'apartheid' . Either they are part of the show or they are not. We treat the lurcher, terrier & whippet owners the same as the gundog , clay pigeon shooters and anglers. We put up good prizes and they have the choice of whether they be part of the fair or not. If the racing is on one day and the show the next then we offer a two for one ticket for the two days - so in this particular case they are treated better than other competitors.

 

LV 4) You claim you want to showcase the lurcher and charge the owners to come in with their dogs, can the same be said for the main ring attractions do they pay to get in?~I await your answer. Now you really demonstrate you know little or nothing about running large events . The main arena attractions not only get in free they are generally paid to perform - this is common practice at all major fairs. This is what the public largely pay to come to see. They don't

pay in to see lurchers, terriers and whippets although they may enjoy them when they see them at the show. By 'showcasing' I meant giving terriers, lurchers and whippet competitions equal or perhaps even greater profile with our other competitions, giving them their own area in a prominent position with another dispensation - good ringside parking. we also have involved them in our PR & publicity. They are not a main arena attraction - they are competitors and all competitors except international teams or pre qualified competitors do pay admission - they are treated exactly the same as the other competitors such as gundogs, clays and angling except for the concession for events over two days.

 

LV 5) showcasing the lurcher as you claim your trying to do its only fair the judge should have a wealth of knowledge of working lurchers in the field while I appreciate a lot of lurchers dont work they do need to look fit for purpose. In spite of all our discussions about judging you persist in stating that working experience is the main criterion for being fit to judge a show. While desirable it is NOT the sole or most important criterion - the judge at our or any SHOW is not assessing working and CANNOT assess working ability in a showring.

 

LV My partner and I were asked at short notice to judge the lurchers at an adjoining hunt show in the Midlands we accepted and on the day we stipulated no strung up necks,no stacking the dogs, and moved on a slack lead. At last something we can agree on in that I do not like to see dogs strung up - either terriers or lurchers I prefer to see them stand and move naturally.

 

LV. Since you have now brought this down to a personnel level - It was not me but you who made this personal - tell me when you made one positive remark about our events or anything connected with them on this forum! If the virtual diatribe of criticism isn't personal I don't know what is.

 

You then go on to very personally and highly inaccurately to accuse me of only being interest in making money out of terrier, whippet & lurcher competitors - I am interested in the money side of the lurchers and terriers - but only in trying to put together good budgets in order to give them good prizes, top quality competitions, good judges, fair admission prices and cover travelling expenses for qualifiers and judges. Oh and I also help other shows where I can. The lurchers & terriers at our fairs may make the organising clubs some money - they take the entry fees - but from the fair team's point of view at best they do not quite 'wash their face'. One has only to look at our prize structure with good trophies in all classes and substantial cash and other prizes and compare this to other events in Ireland and the UK to realise that making money from terrier, lurchers and whippets is very definitely not our/my motivation.

 

 

Now I have answered your questions, observations, assertions etc . I have also pointed out the inconsistencies in your logic.

 

NOW you said I hadn't answered your questions so perhaps you can step up to the plate and give answers to the questions 1-4 above that you have NOT answered .

 

I am particularly interested in you answering the question as to when, if ever, you attended any of our events?

 

AlbertJ

[buster 6]

it takes me back fifty years this,to when i was in the infants school.its time to grow up boys?