Judges for Ballywalter Game Fair

[barryh11 14]

Rose mc Coy cant be serious you want a top judge try for someone that has worked with lurchers all there life not some woman with racing background why not try for just talk sake Dave Sleight knows what it takes to have a top working lurcher

[Leeview 791]

Can I say to you or anyone suggesting judges for us to consider that we are willing to consider suggestions but need to have some justification for selecting a judge other than you claim 'he works his dogs'.

 

As a former chairman now President of the Ulster Golden Retriever Club I have had an input into selecting show, working test and Field Trial judges. I wouldn't think of supporting a show judge on the basis of 'he works his dogs' AND bear in mind such a person would have had the work of his dogs demonstrated through actual tests or trials not just on the basis of someone claiming that he worked his dogs. Obviously dogs in the field trial or working classes have the certificates to prove it so a show judge is fairly competent to judge them whereas in the breed classes I would doubt that a working judge would necessarily be competent to judge the 'beauty' stakes and make no mistake that is what by definition any show is. I would need the person to have supporting qualifications such as preferably that they had judged before and if not, that their dogs had had some show success.

 

Albertj

"I would nt think of supporting a show judge on the basis of 'he works his dogs'

So you dont mind supporting a judge that wins plenty of racing to be satisfactory to lads that are entering a working lurcher show? :hmm:

Y.I.S Leeview

[AlbertJ 569]

Can I say to you or anyone suggesting judges for us to consider that we are willing to consider suggestions but need to have some justification for selecting a judge other than you claim 'he works his dogs'.

 

As a former chairman now President of the Ulster Golden Retriever Club I have had an input into selecting show, working test and Field Trial judges. I wouldn't think of supporting a show judge on the basis of 'he works his dogs' AND bear in mind such a person would have had the work of his dogs demonstrated through actual tests or trials not just on the basis of someone claiming that he worked his dogs. Obviously dogs in the field trial or working classes have the certificates to prove it so a show judge is fairly competent to judge them whereas in the breed classes I would doubt that a working judge would necessarily be competent to judge the 'beauty' stakes and make no mistake that is what by definition any show is. I would need the person to have supporting qualifications such as preferably that they had judged before and if not, that their dogs had had some show success.

 

Albertj

"I would nt think of supporting a show judge on the basis of 'he works his dogs'

So you dont mind supporting a judge that wins plenty of racing to be satisfactory to lads that are entering a working lurcher show? :hmm:

Y.I.S Leeview

 

LV,

 

I had intended to let this thread run out. But if anyone looks at your posts it would appear that one of your main interests on this forum is sniping at our events. I felt it was only a matter of time before you joined the criticism. Someone whose only qualification is that he or she claims to 'work their dogs' and has never done anything at shows with their dogs or judged before - in my opinion is an unlikely candidate to be a good judge at a large show such as the Game Fair. It is not only 'working dogs' that are shown but racing dogs, pet dogs and working dogs and they are judged on their appearance not their working ability.

 

Now I suspect your criticism of Rose, as it was with the very succesful Master Mc Grath event and the Five Nations Lurcher Championship appears more to be yet another criticism of our events - Rose just happened to be in the firing line this time.

 

Now a challenge for you - you have shot your mouth on many occasions so now why not do it under your own name instead of hiding behind an alias? AND lets know on what authority you criticise anything? What have you won with your dogs in racing or showing - if so where and when? Have you ever judged - if so where and when ? Better still let's see photo's of your 'working dogs' to see what you think is the sort of lurcher that we should select judges to give top awards to ? Tell us what you would want a judge to look for in a 'working dog'?

 

If you are prepared to snipe away constantly at the innovations that we have made and which attracted record entries to our events in 2011 you should be man enough to answer my challenges. BUT I won't hold my breath as I suspect you are the sort of person who likes to snipe away solely under the cloak of anonymity.

 

I await your response with interest.

 

Albertj

[stop.end 4,079]

stop end (good choice of name ) so STOP and End your shit talk , your not well liked for you bitchy opinions on this site and you wait for any chance to ruin down anyones dogs .Who are you to criticise any one about the way they work their dogs .. I know danny a long time and have seen all his dogs working over the years and to read your post talking about a well respected man, trying to run him, his dogs and his ways down. Who are you to judge or even comment when you know nothing about him !!!!

lol..... i never tried too run dannny down or his dogs...which by the way he feeds not me...i dont agree with doubling up ever... but sure hi thats my opinion ... danny is going into one over some lady being a judge who he reckons knows nothing about working her dogs....so he was stating HIS opinion....and now im stating MINE... im not well liked.boo hoo...pass the sleeping tablets.. :cray: .... and as for BITCHY opinions...whos acting the bitch here???/ ..... its a foooking dog show.... who gives a fook who walks out with rosettes or a wee trophy ....at the end of the day the man is organizing shows for dog men to have something to attend when the season stops... dander about a catch up way men...shit if theres a half decent stall maybe grab a bargain...get a grip its a show

[Leeview 791]

Now a challenge for you - you have shot your mouth on many occasions so now why not do it under your own name instead of hiding behind an alias? AND lets know on what authority you criticise anything? What have you won with your dogs in racing or showing - if so where and when? Have you ever judged - if so where and when ? Better still let's see photo's of your 'working dogs' to see what you think is the sort of lurcher that we should select judges to give top awards to ? Tell us what you would want a judge to look for in a 'working dog'?

 

 

 

The name Leeview comes from a well known established greyhound kennel, my connections with them is having owned and coursed a dog from their kennel. My name is Sean M.FitzGerald always has been and always will be, have had lurchers since the mid 50's when I was 7yrs old and have had them ever since and now turned 60 last year. I've known Seamus Irwin from the 90's(were nt you supposed to come over to England with him around that time to see how lurcher shows were run over here? SI. awsked me for some passes for you both) When I was organising the lurcher side of things at Chatsworth. I also appeared on coneycatcher2 working in the dales and also the Lurchermania video

Have I ever judged-if so where and when? Well yes I have judged a good few shows from Scotland right down to the south coast of England and east to west as well, as for Ireland twice at Clonshire before the fight put an end to that show, I've been back since and judged for the Limerick County Foxhounds, these 3 shows spanning 18yrs, then I also judged at Downpatrick in the north, anyone old enough to recall myself and Owen Kane from Scotland because there was only 10 classes to judge we decided that we should both judge all the dogs starting from opposite ends of the line and then picking the winners between us, we picked Sean McClusker for B.i.S Oh and neither judge knew one person prior to judging that show, another thing that stood out was only 2 women came into the rings and it transpired they were holding the dogs while their husbands showed another dog in the same class.

the bitch in my avatar is one of my present workers but dont worry I'll put others up at the weekend when Im back home

 

"to see what you think is the sort of lurcher that we should select judges to give top awards to" what an absolutely ridiculous statement to make how can any judge tell you what hes going to give a top award too? Of course thats if the judge is judging the dogs and not his mate thats holding it? Make no mistake I like my collie X's they do what I want workwise, over the years I've put SalukiXs up on more than one occasion,judged the first ever Bullx championship, a cracking WheatenX at Clonshire, Sean McCluskers DhxGh XfoxhoundxGh, I could go on but my point is you never go into the ring kennel blind you judge what is put in front of you and pick out what you would like to have a day out watching it work

Hope that this suffices but please ask away if it does nt

Y.I.S Leeview

[AlbertJ 569]

Now a challenge for you - you have shot your mouth on many occasions so now why not do it under your own name instead of hiding behind an alias? AND lets know on what authority you criticise anything? What have you won with your dogs in racing or showing - if so where and when? Have you ever judged - if so where and when ? Better still let's see photo's of your 'working dogs' to see what you think is the sort of lurcher that we should select judges to give top awards to ? Tell us what you would want a judge to look for in a 'working dog'?

 

 

 

The name Leeview comes from a well known established greyhound kennel, my connections with them is having owned and coursed a dog from their kennel. My name is Sean M.FitzGerald always has been and always will be, have had lurchers since the mid 50's when I was 7yrs old and have had them ever since and now turned 60 last year. I've known Seamus Irwin from the 90's(were nt you supposed to come over to England with him around that time to see how lurcher shows were run over here? SI. awsked me for some passes for you both) When I was organising the lurcher side of things at Chatsworth. I also appeared on coneycatcher2 working in the dales and also the Lurchermania video

Have I ever judged-if so where and when? Well yes I have judged a good few shows from Scotland right down to the south coast of England and east to west as well, as for Ireland twice at Clonshire before the fight put an end to that show, I've been back since and judged for the Limerick County Foxhounds, these 3 shows spanning 18yrs, then I also judged at Downpatrick in the north, anyone old enough to recall myself and Owen Kane from Scotland because there was only 10 classes to judge we decided that we should both judge all the dogs starting from opposite ends of the line and then picking the winners between us, we picked Sean McClusker for B.i.S Oh and neither judge knew one person prior to judging that show, another thing that stood out was only 2 women came into the rings and it transpired they were holding the dogs while their husbands showed another dog in the same class.

the bitch in my avatar is one of my present workers but dont worry I'll put others up at the weekend when Im back home

 

"to see what you think is the sort of lurcher that we should select judges to give top awards to" what an absolutely ridiculous statement to make how can any judge tell you what hes going to give a top award too? Of course thats if the judge is judging the dogs and not his mate thats holding it? Make no mistake I like my collie X's they do what I want workwise, over the years I've put SalukiXs up on more than one occasion,judged the first ever Bullx championship, a cracking WheatenX at Clonshire, Sean McCluskers DhxGh XfoxhoundxGh, I could go on but my point is you never go into the ring kennel blind you judge what is put in front of you and pick out what you would like to have a day out watching it work

Hope that this suffices but please ask away if it does nt

Y.I.S Leeview

 

 

Sean,

 

Fair play to you for coming back on under your own name. I admire a man who steps up to the mark on a challenge.

 

" I've known Seamus Irwin from the 90's(were nt you supposed to come over to England with him around that time to see how lurcher shows were run over here? "

 

That is not the case - I normally leave the clubs running the events to decide on how they run them and Seamus had been running the Terrier & Lurcher show at the fair since 1981 until we changed organisers last year.

 

Have I ever judged-if so where and when? "Well yes I have judged a good few shows from Scotland right down to the south coast of England and east to west as well, as for Ireland twice at Clonshire before the fight put an end to that show, I've been back since and judged for the Limerick County Foxhounds, these 3 shows spanning 18yrs, then I also judged at Downpatrick in the north" .

 

Having this experience of judging you must know that some of the suggestions on the forum that we should choose our judges solely on the basis of someone claiming that they worked their dogs is simply not tenable. You must know that to judge any animal you must have a good idea of your ideal conformation, movement and any breed specifics that you think are relevant plus obviously test for balance and soundness and of course assess condition and how the dog is presented. Finally if you consider it to be the sort of dog that could work well although this is the most subjective criterion of all. How best to do this (1) to attend shows and see what dogs are being put up by a variety of judges (2) to enter shows to test your judgement of your own dogs, and finally to get judging experience actually going over a dog and its structure.

 

My ownership of dogs spans a greater period than your own and I have trained, worked and shown with success at all levels. Including getting third with a working dog in the Open Bitch class at Crufts with several top English Show Champions standing behind me. . This was actually a shooting dog who won tests and ran in trials. I didn't just claim I worked her. Quite uniquely I also had another bitch which won at ch Show level, wom tests, a novice Firld Trial and had several Open Trial awards against the top labradors in Ireland and on the one occasion when I accepted a challenge to enter an obedience competition she was 3rd in a class of 18 dogs. I have also trained GSDs and Dobes for man work (and showed both) and trained and showed setters and a pointer. I have judged all the gundog breeds at Championship show level and quite a few other breeds at Open Show level and I have judged working tests and field trials. So I think I would know at least as much as you about working, training and judging dogs.

 

Where you came in on this particular argument was that you were criticising Rose because she didn't work her dogs but she has had great success picking them, conditioning and training them for racing - few guys have had more success. She has also been successful in showing them and she has judged both whippets and lurchers before. I consider that she is very competent to judge dogs on the criteria I outlined above. And I feel she is likely to make a better judge than someone with little showing experience or success , no juging experience and whose sole qualification is 'he works his dogs'.

 

Rightly or wrongly I felt that your criticism of Rose was more the continuation of the virtual stream of criticism that you have levelled at our events than a real criticism of her. And bearing in mind your response I am even more convinced of this because you obviously do know what a good dog should look like and you know what is necessary to be a good judge.

 

I thought you were one of the fraternity that felt that judges should put up marked dogs over better specimens because it is a 'working dog show'. Hence my comment about the sort of dogs you would wish to be put up at our shows. I now understand that you cannot really take that point of view.

 

 

 

"I could go on but my point is you never go into the ring kennel blind you judge what is put in front of you and pick out what you would like to have a day out watching it work"

 

 

My sentiments entirely!

 

As I said fair play to you for coming back under your own name and in fact by giving your 'dog cv' you have in fact actually made most of the points about judging that I was trying to make and you fully meet the ideal qualifications that I had laid out to look for in our judges i.e have had success with your dogs; judging experience and lastly but not most importantly 'work your dogs'.

 

For some reason you have decided to attack virtually every initiative that we take for our events. I don't mind anyone speaking their mind, indeed I prefer frankness but I abhor someone attacking an innocent third party to 'get at' me. That's why I objected most strongly over your post.

 

I also don't bear grudges so if you are prepared to put your judging experience to good use I am happy to suggest you to our organising clubs in order that you can bring your undoubted expertise to one of our events!

 

Albertj

[chartpolski 23,041]

Albert, I have nothing but admiration for the way you organise and run shows in Ireland ! The Master MgRath, the Five Nations, ( both the Terrier & Lurcher Shows), were inovations ! I had the pleasure to judge the Whippet Show for you at Birr, two years ago. I feel I have to comment on this thread, as you keep equating Lurcher Shows with K.C. shows ! It couldn't be more different ! K.C. judges have a STANDARD to work to...... Lurcher judges can only pick what is best IN THEIR MIND only ! I feel that the more you defend your position, the more the working Lucher men feel alienated ! As I say; I have nothing but respect for you and what you do, but this isn't about Retrievers, it's a whole different ball game... Listen to the good guys, and ignore the idiots !!

 

Cheers.

[AlbertJ 569]

Albert, I have nothing but admiration for the way you organise and run shows in Ireland ! The Master MgRath, the Five Nations, ( both the Terrier & Lurcher Shows), were inovations ! I had the pleasure to judge the Whippet Show for you at Birr, two years ago. I feel I have to comment on this thread, as you keep equating Lurcher Shows with K.C. shows ! It couldn't be more different ! K.C. judges have a STANDARD to work to...... Lurcher judges can only pick what is best IN THEIR MIND only ! I feel that the more you defend your position, the more the working Lucher men feel alienated ! As I say; I have nothing but respect for you and what you do, but this isn't about Retrievers, it's a whole different ball game... Listen to the good guys, and ignore the idiots !!

 

Cheers.

 

Chart,

 

I really do appreciate the difference. In fact I made the point earlier that because there is no standard judging is more difficult and more down to personal preference as to what the judge has 'in their mind' as the ideal dog for working. Even with a standard this is the subjective bit of judging and what makes different totally fair judges have preferences. However things such as basic conformation ( taking into account possible parentage and function);balance;movement and overall soundness; condition and presentation are all things that are the objective factors in judging any dogs. They are common factors to all judging of dogs . As I said I have kept, trained and shown dogs from GSPs to quite a few gundog breeds and I have judged huge AV classes and BIS of all breeds. That is why I feel that you cannot simply 'pluck out' someone 'who works his dogs' to be a judge at large public shows such as the fairs. As a show organiser I feel that the judge should have the authority for his or her decisions of showing authority in the ring, being decisive, knowing how to go over a dog and some obvious consistency in their judging. I feel that this is more likely to come from someone who has demonstrated success with their dogs and who has judged before and ideally someone who has worked their dogs not solely who has worked their dogs. I think both Kieran and Barrie match these criteria very well. Rose, while she doesn't work her dogs does select, train and compete with her dogs in both show and racing ( with good success over a good period of time). Her dogs are well conditioned and a credit to her. And she has judged at least twice before. So while she doesn't meet all of what would be my criteria for the ideal judge she meets quite a few. I did not select Rose or the other judges- the organisers do but I do sometimes make suggestions. I did endorse Rose when she was suggested and I think the doubters should, like me, have a look at how she judges before making up their opinion.

 

Albertj

[lurcher330 2,297]

Rose Judged my bitch for the all Ireland in Ballinlough and picked her as champion,the same bitch was champion in Birr last year and was reserve in the 5 nations '

 

i was at 90% of the shows in this country last year and Rose was as good as any Judge i have come across,and i would have no bother showing my dogs with Rose being the judge

[Irish Lurcher 1,013]

Rose Judged my bitch for the all Ireland in Ballinlough and picked her as champion,the same bitch was champion in Birr last year and was reserve in the 5 nations '

 

i was at 90% of the shows in this country last year and Rose was as good as any Judge i have come across,and i would have no bother showing my dogs with Rose being the judge

 

Thats a good endorsment for her, I feel the point the lads are making is that they want to be judged by one of their own, now that can also bring about problems. Think we need to call in John Hume and Gerry on this one....

[pigsy 34]

I think they days of the proper working lurcher are finished at your shows. Albert with all the talk of breed standard There is no breed standard with 3or 4 dogs in the mix .Are you intending to push the working lurcher men out while pomoting the race and show click ? I will be happy to spend my money else where if this is the case

[lurcher330 2,297]

I think they days of the proper working lurcher are finished at your shows. Albert with all the talk of breed standard There is no breed standard with 3or 4 dogs in the mix .Are you intending to push the working lurcher men out while pomoting the race and show click ? I will be happy to spend my money else where if this is the case

When Rose Judge the whippets in Shanes Castle the champion whippet was the same whippet that won the working class,which was a working whippet

[Irish Lurcher 1,013]

I think they days of the proper working lurcher are finished at your shows. Albert with all the talk of breed standard There is no breed standard with 3or 4 dogs in the mix .Are you intending to push the working lurcher men out while pomoting the race and show click ? I will be happy to spend my money else where if this is the case

When Rose Judge the whippets in Shanes Castle the champion whippet was the same whippet that won the working class,which was a working whippet

 

Graham you protest to much, but I know where your coming from....

[lurcher330 2,297]

I think they days of the proper working lurcher are finished at your shows. Albert with all the talk of breed standard There is no breed standard with 3or 4 dogs in the mix .Are you intending to push the working lurcher men out while pomoting the race and show click ? I will be happy to spend my money else where if this is the case

When Rose Judge the whippets in Shanes Castle the champion whippet was the same whippet that won the working class,which was a working whippet

 

Graham you protest to much, but I know where your coming from....

Not protesting John,just proving a point,the bitch was Simons whippet bitch

[pigsy 34]

I think they days of the proper working lurcher are finished at your shows. Albert with all the talk of breed standard There is no breed standard with 3or 4 dogs in the mix .Are you intending to push the working lurcher men out while pomoting the race and show click ? I will be happy to spend my money else where if this is the case

When Rose Judge the whippets in Shanes Castle the champion whippet was the same whippet that won the working class,which was a working whippet

 

Graham you protest to much, but I know where your coming from....

Not protesting John,just proving a point,the bitch was Simons whippet bitch

Yea Graham Meeks whippet don't know if he works it and Fiona won the over with Maveric judged by Humphrys but that is old news I was not speaking about Rose I was on about breed standards and judges having to meet a criteria It is meant to fun at the shows not crufts Next Albert will asking for a dress code Which puts Rose out if you look at the pictures from shanes 2010