Ancient sighthounds

[chartpolski 22,825]

Did anyone watch the programme on tv last night about Pedigree Dogs ??? The part that should interest anyone contributing to this thread was the bit about how the KC have changed the shape of the Bulldogs skull out of all recognision, in only 100 years !!! By selective breeding. Surely if this could be achieved in such a relatively short time; then the "Spitz" type skull could be changed to a "running dog" type skull, in THOUSANDS of years of selective breeding ???

 

Cheers.

[Born Hunter 17,743]

Did anyone watch the programme on tv last night about Pedigree Dogs ??? The part that should interest anyone contributing to this thread was the bit about how the KC have changed the shape of the Bulldogs skull out of all recognision, in only 100 years !!! By selective breeding. Surely if this could be achieved in such a relatively short time; then the "Spitz" type skull could be changed to a "running dog" type skull, in THOUSANDS of years of selective breeding ???

 

Cheers.

 

Any reasonable person would draw that same conclusion Charts. Though I admit, it isn't proof of evolution it certainly makes evolution plausible. Far more plausible than any other competing theory. I think I'll stand in the corner of the academics with this one...

[1Wally 204]

Did anyone watch the programme on tv last night about Pedigree Dogs ??? The part that should interest anyone contributing to this thread was the bit about how the KC have changed the shape of the Bulldogs skull out of all recognision, in only 100 years !!! By selective breeding. Surely if this could be achieved in such a relatively short time; then the "Spitz" type skull could be changed to a "running dog" type skull, in THOUSANDS of years of selective breeding ???

 

Cheers.

The modern bulldog was created by adding pug into the mix to get the skull shape though, not by selective breeding within its own breed. Atb

[Malt 379]

the wolf would be changing into the saluki both in looks and ability. How it grew the fancy ears I have no idea,I am not a genius. There are some good images on the net type in " images for Canus Lupus Arabs" cheers Sherlock.

 

If you look at the link to the article on the silver fox breeding project, you can see that they reckon that the same genes which give docility, the ability to become tame and submissive, are linked to floppy ears and colour variations outside the norm for foxes. Says it all in my opinion. Genes are such a complicated thing: we still don't understand them properly today.

 

Neoteny - Individuals which retain the desired pup like traits into adulthood. The physical traits often mirror the desired behavioural traits. Couldn't remember the name of it when I tried to reply to this yesterday but came across it when I was looking at something completely different just now..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny#In_other_species

[juckler123 707]

I cant get my head around evolution when they say we came from a fish frog or whatever they reckon evolution to me is not something getting bigger stronger different colour etc but actually turning into something else like a monkey into a man i havent seen one bit of evidence imho to prove we did piltdown man turned out to be a pig and lucy well if you look at her shes probably made up of more than one fossil remains and she was a monkey.

I can honestly believe dogs came from a variety of wolf type animals and individual breeds are easy to attain with selective breeding but they are still canids they aint become anything else.

I believe man and his canine counterpart have grown together on this earth in a simbiotic relationship theyve founds mans footprints with dinosaurs i wonder if theyve found dogs too.

[skycat 6,173]

the wolf would be changing into the saluki both in looks and ability. How it grew the fancy ears I have no idea,I am not a genius. There are some good images on the net type in " images for Canus Lupus Arabs" cheers Sherlock.

 

If you look at the link to the article on the silver fox breeding project, you can see that they reckon that the same genes which give docility, the ability to become tame and submissive, are linked to floppy ears and colour variations outside the norm for foxes. Says it all in my opinion. Genes are such a complicated thing: we still don't understand them properly today.

 

Neoteny - Individuals which retain the desired pup like traits into adulthood. The physical traits often mirror the desired behavioural traits. Couldn't remember the name of it when I tried to reply to this yesterday but came across it when I was looking at something completely different just now..

 

http://en.wikipedia....n_other_species

 

That's the one

[undisputed 1,664]

I cant get my head around evolution when they say we came from a fish frog or whatever they reckon evolution to me is not something getting bigger stronger different colour etc but actually turning into something else like a monkey into a man i havent seen one bit of evidence imho to prove we did piltdown man turned out to be a pig and lucy well if you look at her shes probably made up of more than one fossil remains and she was a monkey.

I can honestly believe dogs came from a variety of wolf type animals and individual breeds are easy to attain with selective breeding but they are still canids they aint become anything else.

I believe man and his canine counterpart have grown together on this earth in a simbiotic relationship theyve founds mans footprints with dinosaurs i wonder if theyve found dogs too.

 

Yip they hunted dinosaurs with a bullasaurus rex

[sandymere 8,263]

edit to post full article.

 

An article I wrote a year or so ago that has some relevance to this subject From wolf to working dog.

 

 

Genetic evidence suggests that the dominant ancestor of dogs was of Middle Eastern origin with a later addition of Asiatic and or Chinese wolves, this mirrors the fist flourishing of agriculture starting in these areas. The first interactions could have been having an effect on altering the evolutionary pressures of particular groups of wolfs pre domestication, perhaps from the first meeting in the middle east some 100.000 years ago. As man spread out of Africa he perhaps picked up canine camp followers and so begins the development of the dog.

 

These early camp followers may have joined the humans as they spread through their Middle Eastern territories and then have traveled in the wake of the hunter gatherers as the populations expanded outwards to Europe and Asia. This could have prompted the evolutionary process that would one day result in the dog. Adaptations to the camp follower lifestyle would have helped to keep these packs separate from local populations as they spread so isolating the gene pool and helping to fix a type ready for the domestication with the birth of the agriculturalists lifestyle around 14,000 years ago. A skull found in Belgium dated from over 30.000 years ago could be an early transitional stage from wolf to dog although its relationship to man is unknown.

 

Later, around 12,000 years ago, in what is now Israel, they buried a person holding the body of a puppy in their arms. Why it was done and even if the puppy was wolf or dog is unknown but it shows early evidence of a strong link between human and canine that has survived to this day. So our modern dogs, whether they are hounds, terriers or huskies have their roots set in the Middle East and the type is set to the extent that when left to natural selection, as with the Dingo, they don’t revert back to wolves but remain dogs. The next stage in this interspecies collaboration would be to start the process of breeding to improve positive traits such as guarding, herding or hunting and the emergence of the specialist.

 

Pre domestication selection along the lines of an aggressive camp follower being killed or driven off and the more friendly being tolerated, to post domestication picking individual traits that fitted a defined purpose would be a natural progression. The watchful to guard the livestock and home, which would lead onto herding and guard dog types, and the good hunters to join their human counterparts in dealing with predators and supplementing the diet with meat. With this ability to create new types with specialist skills combined with a more reliable food supply though agriculture it wouldn’t have been long before hunting with dogs became a sport.

The earliest mention of specific breeds are in fact sporting dogs with the likes of the Egyptian pharaohs, Assyrians and ancient Greeks all leaving evidence, in pictorial form of lightly built hunting dogs that resemble modern sight hounds. As well as pictures sight hounds also get many early written endorsements, being the only breed mentioned in the bible and Ovid the Grecian historian, 63 BC to AD 17, wrote (translated by Dryden)

"As when the impatient greyhound, slipped from far Bounds o'er the glade to course the fearful hare, She in her speed does all her safety use, And he with double speed pursues his prey, O'erruns her at the sitting turns; but licks His chops in vain; Yet blows upon the flix, She seeks the shelter which the neighboring covert gives, And, gaining it, she doubts it yet she lives."

It’s likely the scent hounds would also have been early developments and once you have agriculture you have pests and the need of terriers, of course this is just conjecture. Just as the past cannot ever be truly known so the future lies open to question but we stand at a pivotal point and hold so much in our hands right now.

Country sports are for once getting positive publicity with game featuring on every TV cookery show and the conservationist views of wildlife management rather than the anti’s don’t touch anything attitude gaining public acceptance. So now more than ever we need to actually promote ourselves in a positive and honest light however we work our dogs. The likes of sustainable food, local produce and habitat management are our evidential arguments and marching banners, these are augments that make sound economic, ecological and ethical sense and so when presented well can redress the balance of public opinion from anti hunting. The chance of a change in the law seems to have receded a little but if the prospect of a free vote in parliament does emerge then we need MPs to be getting the right message from their constituents and those banners along with cost effectiveness and the right of personal choice can be our wining message but it will only need a few fools to bring bad publicity to our cause and it may yet all fall down. I hope that we are a step in the centuries old story of working dogs and that it is a history that will go on for a few more generations yet but fear that if we get it wrong now future historians will record our time as the one that saw the last of the sporting dogs.

.

 

 

Edited February 29, 2012 by sandymere

[hok boi 40]

did i read that right? mans footprints with dinosaurs???? i thought they were millions of years apart.

my own theory is.......... a pack of wolves chase a gazelle or something similar, only one or two are catching them regularly, these wolves are more aerodynamic than the others, longer legs help with speed and deeper chest both help, these wolves end up alphas and breed together and produce progeny of a similar type and so on and so on...

man sees the success that these wolves are having, pinches himself some puppies with the intention of breeding from the best and eating the others.

just the way i see it happening

[Jordb543 9]

perhaps it was the easy pickings around primitive man's camp that attracted the more docile wolf, perhaps with these hanging around the camp they gave primitive man some protection from other wild animals, maybe it wasn't a deliberate thing with either side dominating the other more of a humble beginning to a now long standing symbiotic relationship

 

This is also what i think, older/injured or lone wolves realised that hanging around near human camps was to their advantage scrap food etc, any wolves that where aggressive towards early man would have no doubt been swiftly dealt with,

 

also if these wolves lingered around the outskirts of camps shadowing humans as they moved around, they would no doubt have acted as an early detection to potential danger, i find it hard to believe alot of animals can slip past into camp without the wolf realising, and any animal that is a threat to a wolf is no doubt a threat to man, so a relationship between them would benefit both species,

 

just my two cents worth

[Casso 1,261]

i believe in ancient times gone by we would have had a very different outlook on the creatures around us,

we somehow believe the hunter of long ago would have had the same outlook as today's hunter with his if it moves kill it attitude,

 

We dont have to look into ancient times to gauge the thinking of relatively modern hunters, take the Native Americans as an example,

they're view on fellow animals who shared their plains and environments was one of respect , respect for animals they ate,and the other large animals around them, brother bear and brother wolf was how they viewed such animals

and with that thinking as the foundation for association with the wolf is was only a matter of time before both wolf and human become bonded through the act of hunting,

The bond through hunting came first, trust grew, and as we've seen with the fox experiment mutations occurred under the blanket of friendliness with man

[Sherlock 42]

#181chartpolski

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Posted Today, 10:00 AM

Did anyone watch the programme on tv last night about Pedigree Dogs ??? The part that should interest anyone contributing to this thread was the bit about how the KC have changed the shape of the Bulldogs skull out of all recognision, in only 100 years !!! By selective breeding. Surely if this could be achieved in such a relatively short time; then the "Spitz" type skull could be changed to a "running dog" type skull, in THOUSANDS of years of selective breeding ???

 

Cheers.

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There is another programme to night bbc 4 2200 hrs wolves in yellow stone park.could be interesting, this is just a test piece on my I pad I am trying to evolve into tech no whiz, cheers Sherlock.

 

 

 

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[juckler123 707]

The laetoli prints are worth a look at totally accepted as some of the ealiest hominid footprints .

Man woman and bird and hare prints and what looks like a pheasant to me 3.5 million years ago bet they had a dog that could catch them lol.

[skycat 6,173]

I found this interesting: http://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Owner/103History/TimePDFs/CavePaint1966Article.pdf

 

The tightly curled tail could be just one more piece of evidence which suggests that dogs which were selected for tameness also evolved with physical 'abnormalities' when compared to wild canines. Similar to the flop ears and colour variations.

[Sherlock 42]

Skycat, I have just had a look at the ancient art of the so called basenji personally I think it is the young of the animal on the left of the picture. To confirm my line of thought I asked my wife her opinion and she said exactly the same . The dalmatian dog breeders society try to claim their dog can be traced back to the pharoes using dodgy art work. It is the same with the breeders of the Lizard canary who try to claim the bird is twice as old as it is. Pet sellers probably use antiquity as a selling point. Cheers Sherlock.