Ancient sighthounds

[undisputed 1,664]

You only need to look at different species and how they adapted to their environment, whether or not its a mutated gene is irrelevant it's how they adapt to the change...in terms of the greyhound I suspect that a lot of selective breeding went into the process with the weak and the slow going to the wall....and the Greyhound of today is probably a lot different than it's ancestor in conformation and appearence.....still think it were the Arcadian's tho....a sleakit race.

[TOMO 25,896]

Formidable Skycat! Have you ever asked yourself why anyone would want to live in a cave? Cold, damp, dark holes that they are! Light a fire and smoke yourself out! Yet everyone accepts we had 'Caveman' ancestors. Also, cave art is hardly George Stubbs or Charles Tunnicliffe is it? I wouldn't like to try and draw too many conclusions from it. However, I like your logic. I don't think my bitches would stand still to have their vulva stapled, by the way! But I digress! Have you ever considered that the Classification of Canines might be incomplete! At the moment it stops at 'Species'. If you look a little closer to home eg Man, you can see that we are a species sub-divided into obvious RACES ie Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongaloid. Other animals have similar relationships eg you can cross a domestic cat with a Bengal cat , or a Scottish Wildcat and still get fertile off-spring. Is it possible that the Dolichocephalic type of dog was a seperate Race of canine, possibly originating in the Middle East? As I mentioned, the Egyptians hunted with both Greyhounds and Cheetahs. Do you suggest that the Cheetah evolved from another type of cat by selective breeding? Or might it be an 'Original' type?

i dont think the caveman gave a flying f.. were the dogs came from origionally or the egyptians as long as they filled the pot he was happy ......wonder if they had bull x,s or beddy whippets ,, then ?or did they just drop out of the sky?

I don't pretend to have all the answers but I'm just amazed that no one seems to question the official line. Mad I might be but if the rest of the population are 'sane' that's ok with me! Google is a 'for profit' corporation. When you google something, the first sites offered to you are sponsored ie someone is PAYING so that you read them first! FACT! Ask yourself, who would be paying so that if you google 'Helicopter at Abydos' you get a page full of conspiracy DEBUNKING sites? TPTB don't want you looking at this stuff and unfortunately most of the population don't look any further than a site or 2 full of ridicule! Antis aren't the only brain-washed ones! Try looking at page 4 or 5 of stuff you google if you want to get past the Government Disinformation stuff. I dare you..... stop being so smug and try it!

i think if youve so many issues with the world you would be better off finding a cave on somewhere remote

Fair comment! I admit I do question a lot of things, with good reason! I won't head for a remote cave quite yet tho! When you look at the Sight Hound breeds that haven't been ruined by KC registration, they are relatively free of genetic faults.....bit like a Wolf! Look at the majority of breeds recently created by modern man.. .... full of genetic flaws! We appear to be pretty crap at creating dog breeds in the last 200 years. Also, if we have been using mutant wolf genes to create dog breeds, what caused the mutations? Background Radiation? Where the Hell does that come from?

 

i belive , the reason moden man is creating genetic flaws is simple,,,, form not function 200 years ago people started breeding pets,,

 

as for your comments about evolution,,, its all around us, and is ever changing,,, and if you look at wolves you will see a world of difrence between europian wolf living in spain to one living in siberia,,,,

That's not true, there are NO examples of evolution around us, just selective breeding! Someone mentioned that there are no modern day chimps evolving towards becoming human.... why not? Evolution is an unproven theory and the difference between Wolves is of long standing and probably no more than biological variation due to climate etc. Why is it that Sighthounds lean towards a thin coat, unless we improve on it, unless they originally came from a warmer climate? We have claims that Sighthounds were around 10,000 years ago, which doesn't surprise me, so do we really believe they were a result of a breeding programme? These were stone-age times! Why can't we accept that these near perfect dogs were a Race apart, like the Wolf?

 

what... there are no examples of evolution, and you ask why there are no modern day chimps evolving towards humans,,, why does there need to be ??

 

whilst chimps and pnobos (spelling) are our closest relative,, i dont think they are out direct ansestor,,,

 

 

theres loads more visable evolution as well sherlock,,, take a look at the golapluss islands loads of spiecies there.

also in africa,,, fish eagles that have only just started living on the soda lakes,,, theres no fish obviously, so they huint flamingos,,, studies have already shown changes in there talons,,, after less than 50 years.

[2Painless2btrue 11]

These are just examples of biological variation. The resistant rats, rabbits,head lice haven't evolved into a different physical form from the ones that were killed. Darwin visited the Galapagos Islands and noted different species living there, so what, we could say the same about Australia! As for the Flamingos, it's news to me but I'll look into it..... that might be an embarrassment to me! Sherlock, I still think you're a teacher! all in sport ,

Painless visible evolution, rat poison ,antibiotics, mixamatosis, head lice lotion, all of these examples were all designed to kill either rats rabbits headline and bacteria. All of these life forms have evolved a resistance to toxins/ infections.

Painless

[Tyla 3,179]

I'm purposely being inflammatory as I accept Micro-evolution by natural selection eg silver moths on sooty bark. Thats a long way away from Wolf to domestic dog. The running dog is perfection in motion in my eyes, the perfect hunting machine. By your logic it should have evolved naturally.....Survival of the fittest? Does anybody claim it happened by accident? I'm not dogmatic, I'm the one asking questions. Just demonstrate a realistic way that primitive man could have run a breeding programme without any way of keeping his bitches secure from stray dogs. I grew up with packs of dogs chasing any bitch in season on the streets..... latch key dogs when nobody neutered and leash laws were lax! It's not me who's deluded I'm afraid...... Good discussion though!

 

Im not getting involved in the conspiracy theory argument but I think you havent thought this part of your arguemnent through. You are talking of current times when all people have other responsibilites, work, homes, school etc.

 

In the times in question, lets just call it pre history to avoid pedants, none of that existed. People would have been living as hunter gatherers with their dogs presumably as one of their main survival tools. They would have had a much higher priority than they do today even with the most dedicated dogman. As such the importance of ensuring best only bred with best would mean that, even if a child had to spend the entire length of the bitches season guarding her from other males, it would be likely to be deemed worthwhile.

 

I have spent a fair amount of time in the third world and time does not have to same meaning to people who have nothing else even in this day and age. Neither you or I would spend literally weeks making a dugout canoe for instance, the time spent is not worth the result but if you have nothing but time then its a different matter. I would imagine the same would have been likely to be the case back then. If a dog or bitch was a valuable hunting tool and by ensuring the right breeding was made you would end up with valuable, both in use and in trade, puppies then I doubt there would be any problem making sure that was what happened. This, combined with vigorous culling no doubt, would mean it was far from impossible for primitive man to successfully breed the necessary traits and physical attributes into a line of hunting dogs. I also dont think you are taking into account the sheer amount of time we are talking about. People spent thousands upon thousands of years living as hunter gatherers compared to the relative drop in the ocean of time that has been spent since the introduction of agriculture and the rapid advance thereafter.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Tyla

[Casso 1,261]

the story of the canine is evolution fast tracked, we needed a dog to hunt a certain animal and somehow it evolved ,and we are talking about a time where people largely stayed in their own communities , 100 miles was a very long journey taking days and huge effort,

 

so it would seem to me that dog evolved without much selective breeding and that the purpose and function of the dog had huge effect on genetics, i believe the dog is so entwined with us and its working environment that genetically it can be effected by its environment,

 

There are a number of dogs out there who can swap rolls , herding breeds are very adaptive to whatever man wishes are and can be very effective in many contexts ,so if we start off with a mutt as a blank slate and use it for a certain purpose based round the hunt

 

Is it possible that the pups can be genetically modified from 2 working parents to be better than either and more useful for the work intended, ie longer legs and back develops from a pair of average dogs used for hunting certain game, maybe not all the pups but one or two , which in turn are bred from so over generations a dog develops or mutates into its intended purpose,,

[Tyla 3,179]

Formidable Skycat! Have you ever asked yourself why anyone would want to live in a cave? Cold, damp, dark holes that they are! Light a fire and smoke yourself out! Yet everyone accepts we had 'Caveman' ancestors. Also, cave art is hardly George Stubbs or Charles Tunnicliffe is it? I wouldn't like to try and draw too many conclusions from it. However, I like your logic. I don't think my bitches would stand still to have their vulva stapled, by the way! But I digress! Have you ever considered that the Classification of Canines might be incomplete! At the moment it stops at 'Species'. If you look a little closer to home eg Man, you can see that we are a species sub-divided into obvious RACES ie Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongaloid. Other animals have similar relationships eg you can cross a domestic cat with a Bengal cat , or a Scottish Wildcat and still get fertile off-spring. Is it possible that the Dolichocephalic type of dog was a seperate Race of canine, possibly originating in the Middle East? As I mentioned, the Egyptians hunted with both Greyhounds and Cheetahs. Do you suggest that the Cheetah evolved from another type of cat by selective breeding? Or might it be an 'Original' type?

i dont think the caveman gave a flying f.. were the dogs came from origionally or the egyptians as long as they filled the pot he was happy ......wonder if they had bull x,s or beddy whippets ,, then ?or did they just drop out of the sky?

I don't pretend to have all the answers but I'm just amazed that no one seems to question the official line. Mad I might be but if the rest of the population are 'sane' that's ok with me! Google is a 'for profit' corporation. When you google something, the first sites offered to you are sponsored ie someone is PAYING so that you read them first! FACT! Ask yourself, who would be paying so that if you google 'Helicopter at Abydos' you get a page full of conspiracy DEBUNKING sites? TPTB don't want you looking at this stuff and unfortunately most of the population don't look any further than a site or 2 full of ridicule! Antis aren't the only brain-washed ones! Try looking at page 4 or 5 of stuff you google if you want to get past the Government Disinformation stuff. I dare you..... stop being so smug and try it!

i think if youve so many issues with the world you would be better off finding a cave on somewhere remote

Fair comment! I admit I do question a lot of things, with good reason! I won't head for a remote cave quite yet tho! When you look at the Sight Hound breeds that haven't been ruined by KC registration, they are relatively free of genetic faults.....bit like a Wolf! Look at the majority of breeds recently created by modern man.. .... full of genetic flaws! We appear to be pretty crap at creating dog breeds in the last 200 years. Also, if we have been using mutant wolf genes to create dog breeds, what caused the mutations? Background Radiation? Where the Hell does that come from?

 

i belive , the reason moden man is creating genetic flaws is simple,,,, form not function 200 years ago people started breeding pets,,

 

as for your comments about evolution,,, its all around us, and is ever changing,,, and if you look at wolves you will see a world of difrence between europian wolf living in spain to one living in siberia,,,,

That's not true, there are NO examples of evolution around us, just selective breeding! Someone mentioned that there are no modern day chimps evolving towards becoming human.... why not? Evolution is an unproven theory and the difference between Wolves is of long standing and probably no more than biological variation due to climate etc. Why is it that Sighthounds lean towards a thin coat, unless we improve on it, unless they originally came from a warmer climate? We have claims that Sighthounds were around 10,000 years ago, which doesn't surprise me, so do we really believe they were a result of a breeding programme? These were stone-age times! Why can't we accept that these near perfect dogs were a Race apart, like the Wolf?

 

Thats an interesting point, how do you know? The species are likely to have evolved into their current form over millions of years, chimpanzees have been scientifically studied for how long? Fifty or maybe, in a basic form, one hundred years, do you really think you are likely to notice evolutionary changes over that time scale?

[Sherlock 42]

Painless, it is clear from what you say that you do not accept the reality of evolution despite the wealth of evidence for it. Therefore I have to ask what is your explanation for the diversity of life on earth. Do you believe in a creator God , or in alien intervention. Cheers Sherlock.

[2Painless2btrue 11]

I like your reasoning Tyla! I've never said that it wasn't possible and it's probably exactly what happened with Spitz breeds like the Husky. The Sighthound types are so different in head shape as well as leg & back length, and so free of genetic problems that they FEEL like something special to me. That and the fact that they appear to have been around virtually unchanged since the first recognisable depictions of dogs in pre-history. I don't see why the idea of distinct canine Races is so difficult to accept. Wolf, Sighthound, Dingo etc.. Obviously they can inter-breed, as can the different Races of human being. Giving current man all the credit for producing something so perfect goes against provenance! The dominant characteristics of Sighthound genes which are so obvious when they are crossed also suggests that selective breeding didn't create them. If you left a large group of Spitz types to nature they would probably revert to Wolf type by natural selection. I bet if you did the same thing with a large group of Lurchers, they wouldn't! Sherlock, with regards to Global Warming..... after the last couple of Winters we could do with a bit mate, I've been snowed in twice! The idea of man made Global Warming would give TPTB an opportunity to up our Taxes......only a thought!

[2Painless2btrue 11]

Painless, it is clear from what you say that you do not accept the reality of evolution despite the wealth of evidence for it. Therefore I have to ask what is your explanation for the diversity of life on earth. Do you believe in a creator God , or in alien intervention. Cheers Sherlock.

Hi Sherlock, it's called the THEORY of Evolution coz it's unproven and take it from me, they are trying to prove it! Regarding the choices you are giving me for an alternative, all I will say is, there HAS to be one but it's not necessarily an either/or. Both of your options are dogma and I'm a free thinker! I was raised not to believe everything I'm told & only 1/2 of [bANNED TEXT] I see..... even less these days with photoshop etc! There have been some intelligent contributions to this thread, including yours, despite some mindless mockers. "There are none so blind as those who will not see!" One of the best suggestions I have seen was by "Undisputed" who suggested looking at the Akkadians. The whole region, especially Sumeria, was where this epochs Civilisation restarted fully fledged with Law, Science, Commerce, Libraries etc 6000 years ago. If you look at images from this period you will see obvious hybridized animals kept as pets! We are only just reaching the stage where we can clone and hybridize animals in the laboratory.... it appears that they were doing it then. Check it out! All in sport, Painless

[chartpolski 22,825]

Pointless, allthough I'm a sucker for a good debate, disscusion or argument; I suspect you are just using Google and Wikipedia as a means for a piss take ! If you are in any way serious, have you ever read "Myth, Ritual & Religion" ? It's a very heavy tome, but is very thought provoking.... How did the Ancient Greeks and the Aborigional Australians have the same myths ??? How is the "Deluge" recorded in almost EVERY civilisation, religion and ethnic group in history ??? Have you actualy READ any of Darwins books ? Have you looked at any of the phenomena regarding ancient civilisations with an open mind ??? By the way;I AM a conspiricy theorist, but I look at BOTH sides, and weigh the evidence before pronouncing that every one else is wrong !! LOL !!

 

Cheers.

[2Painless2btrue 11]

Pointless, allthough I'm a sucker for a good debate, disscusion or argument; I suspect you are just using Google and Wikipedia as a means for a piss take ! If you are in any way serious, have you ever read "Myth, Ritual & Religion" ? It's a very heavy tome, but is very thought provoking.... How did the Ancient Greeks and the Aborigional Australians have the same myths ??? How is the "Deluge" recorded in almost EVERY civilisation, religion and ethnic group in history ??? Have you actualy READ any of Darwins books ? Have you looked at any of the phenomena regarding ancient civilisations with an open mind ??? By the way;I AM a conspiricy theorist, but I look at BOTH sides, and weigh the evidence before pronouncing that every one else is wrong !! LOL !!

 

Cheers. Yeah, I've read "Origin of the Species" , have you? Not read"M,R&R" that you refer to tho, any good? I'm not taking the piss at all, by the way! Have you read any of Zecharia Sitchins books on the Sumerians? They knew all the planets of our Solar system 6000 yrs ago, including Pluto that wasn't discovered in modern times til 1930! I totally agree that there was a deluge and most of our knowledge was lost when we were thrown back into the Stone Age, so when Skycat talked about a mummified Sighthound in Ancient Egypt, why should I play dumb and ignore it when the Ancients were so ahead of the game? If you had knowledge of the subject, why didn't you have the bottle to speak up instead of slanging me? I'm not criticising you for not volunteering it, why stay quiet when it's out in the open? Frightened of being laughed at? Cheers anyway, Painless

[chartpolski 22,825]

Well. your sitting watching, Pointless, and have certainly sucked me in ! So kudo's to you ! I'm a retired Aircraft Engineer, but how could I explain heavier than air flight to a savage ?? Yesterday, I was awarded a Certificate in Solar Energy Production, but how can I explain to the "bloke in the bar" how I'm going to give him free electricity ? The point I'm trying to make, is that eveyone dosen't need to know EVERYTHING ! When you dig deep enough, you find some things.....but is it what you REALY want to find ??

 

Cheers.

[chartpolski 22,825]

Pointless, allthough I'm a sucker for a good debate, disscusion or argument; I suspect you are just using Google and Wikipedia as a means for a piss take ! If you are in any way serious, have you ever read "Myth, Ritual & Religion" ? It's a very heavy tome, but is very thought provoking.... How did the Ancient Greeks and the Aborigional Australians have the same myths ??? How is the "Deluge" recorded in almost EVERY civilisation, religion and ethnic group in history ??? Have you actualy READ any of Darwins books ? Have you looked at any of the phenomena regarding ancient civilisations with an open mind ??? By the way;I AM a conspiricy theorist, but I look at BOTH sides, and weigh the evidence before pronouncing that every one else is wrong !! LOL !!

 

Cheers. Yeah, I've read "Origin of the Species" , have you? Not read"M,R&R" that you refer to tho, any good? I'm not taking the piss at all, by the way! Have you read any of Zecharia Sitchins books on the Sumerians? They knew all the planets of our Solar system 6000 yrs ago, including Pluto that wasn't discovered in modern times til 1930! I totally agree that there was a deluge and most of our knowledge was lost when we were thrown back into the Stone Age, so when Skycat talked about a mummified Sighthound in Ancient Egypt, why should I play dumb and ignore it when the Ancients were so ahead of the game? If you had knowledge of the subject, why didn't you have the bottle to speak up instead of slanging me? I'm not criticising you for not volunteering it, why stay quiet when it's out in the open? Frightened of being laughed at? Cheers anyway, Painless

 

You ask " Why didn't I have the bottle to speak up " ?? Well, that'll be because you are making a c**t of youself.. and any one else who may think there is a conspiricy !!

[2Painless2btrue 11]

Well. your sitting watching, Pointless, and have certainly sucked me in ! So kudo's to you ! I'm a retired Aircraft Engineer, but how could I explain heavier than air flight to a savage ?? Yesterday, I was awarded a Certificate in Solar Energy Production, but how can I explain to the "bloke in the bar" how I'm going to give him free electricity ? The point I'm trying to make, is that eveyone dosen't need to know EVERYTHING ! When you dig deep enough, you find some things.....but is it what you REALY want to find ??

 

Cheers.

Don't be so f-cking patronising! TPTB suppress enough without the few of us who've done the research staying tight-lipped! I haven't sucked anyone in and I totally respect the 'man in the bar' with an open mind! Most people are in a trance state due to television corrupting their thinking and a discussion like this brings facts into the open so people can have access to information. Why would you want to keep it from them? Nobody needs protecting from the truth!

[Guest Anubis]

Pointless, allthough I'm a sucker for a good debate, disscusion or argument; I suspect you are just using Google and Wikipedia as a means for a piss take ! If you are in any way serious, have you ever read "Myth, Ritual & Religion" ? It's a very heavy tome, but is very thought provoking.... How did the Ancient Greeks and the Aborigional Australians have the same myths ??? How is the "Deluge" recorded in almost EVERY civilisation, religion and ethnic group in history ??? Have you actualy READ any of Darwins books ? Have you looked at any of the phenomena regarding ancient civilisations with an open mind ??? By the way;I AM a conspiricy theorist, but I look at BOTH sides, and weigh the evidence before pronouncing that every one else is wrong !! LOL !!

 

Cheers. Yeah, I've read "Origin of the Species" , have you? Not read"M,R&R" that you refer to tho, any good? I'm not taking the piss at all, by the way! Have you read any of Zecharia Sitchins books on the Sumerians? They knew all the planets of our Solar system 6000 yrs ago, including Pluto that wasn't discovered in modern times til 1930! I totally agree that there was a deluge and most of our knowledge was lost when we were thrown back into the Stone Age, so when Skycat talked about a mummified Sighthound in Ancient Egypt, why should I play dumb and ignore it when the Ancients were so ahead of the game? If you had knowledge of the subject, why didn't you have the bottle to speak up instead of slanging me? I'm not criticising you for not volunteering it, why stay quiet when it's out in the open? Frightened of being laughed at? Cheers anyway, Painless

 

You ask " Why didn't I have the bottle to speak up " ?? Well, that'll be because you are making a c**t of youself.. and any one else who may think there is a conspiricy !!

 

I thought he was doing quite well to be fair bud.