Oh no not again!!

[Simonrees 45]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094457/BREAKING-NEWS-Police-deal-stand-involving-armed-man-sleepy-Lincolnshire-village.html

[tomano1 80]

Not good why don't they just take up shooting game like the rest it's going to get harder with all these ding bats around

[Work them hard 339]

Riding round on his mobility scooter, Sounds a bit like hot fuzz!

[SportingShooter 0]

Again it begs the question as to why he has any certificates if there was a "concern for his safety" I doubt it would have been the first time if he was disabled.

 

These things will happen until there is better information sharing and more regular checks.

[Simonrees 45]

The whole system of issuing an FAC is antiquated and the differing attitudes amongst differing forces is bad enough. I would happily pay £50 per year for a system where as an FAC holder I was required to be assessed by a mental health expert and my medical records checked. I know there can never be a perfect system but in most of these cases there seems to have been some sort of warning that a person is having some difficulties in life. Yet these warnings seem to go ignored. I also feel than any changes should be coming from within the shooting world such as BASC etc. because we need to be seen as responsible and self regulating, otherwise successive governments could jump all over us.

[Born Hunter 17,798]

The last act of a desperate man. By the sound of it his life was crumbling around him and the only thing he had left that made him feel good was his shooting. He feared he was going to loose this and lashed out violently. It's a sad story indeed.

[Ratsmasher 36]

I think that his license should have been removed earlier - he had a stroke and wasnt in any condition to continue shooting so there was no need for him to keep his guns privately. if his license was suspended and his guns either had been held or if necessary sold for him then he would have time to recover without risking an incident like this. Unfortunate as it is, a little more care from the force in question would have preventing this from happening. Thankfully only Lucy Cope seems to have paid any attention

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ratsmasher

[grogblossom 0]

The whole system of issuing an FAC is antiquated and the differing attitudes amongst differing forces is bad enough. I would happily pay £50 per year for a system where as an FAC holder I was required to be assessed by a mental health expert and my medical records checked. I know there can never be a perfect system but in most of these cases there seems to have been some sort of warning that a person is having some difficulties in life. Yet these warnings seem to go ignored. I also feel than any changes should be coming from within the shooting world such as BASC etc. because we need to be seen as responsible and self regulating, otherwise successive governments could jump all over us.

 

That would mean you handing in your ticket for certain drugs you maybe had to take for minor illnesses, like lets see STEROIDS pill form or cream application ...They could turn you into a raving shotgun wielding lunatic...Ahhh caffeine tobacco alcopoppers aspirin ...Get the idea.......

[Simonrees 45]

The whole system of issuing an FAC is antiquated and the differing attitudes amongst differing forces is bad enough. I would happily pay £50 per year for a system where as an FAC holder I was required to be assessed by a mental health expert and my medical records checked. I know there can never be a perfect system but in most of these cases there seems to have been some sort of warning that a person is having some difficulties in life. Yet these warnings seem to go ignored. I also feel than any changes should be coming from within the shooting world such as BASC etc. because we need to be seen as responsible and self regulating, otherwise successive governments could jump all over us.

 

That would mean you handing in your ticket for certain drugs you maybe had to take for minor illnesses, like lets see STEROIDS pill form or cream application ...They could turn you into a raving shotgun wielding lunatic...Ahhh caffeine tobacco alcopoppers aspirin ...Get the idea.......

 

No thats nonsense. I'm talking about a system that can potentially pick up the signs that someone is slipping into mental illness, not removing someones guns because they are taking penicillin!

[matt_hooks 188]

I believe the point grog was making is that all those substances (except aspirin) are psychoactive, and have the potential to effect a significant change on behaviour. As far as I know penicillin isn't considered psychoactive.

 

As for "slipping in to mental illness" and removing firearms, it's an incredibly slippery slope. The ultimate extension of which leads to us locking up people diagnosed with depression "for their own good".

 

A knife, even a bottle, becomes a dangerous weapon if the person holding it decides to use it thus Do you propose national licencing of knives and bottles (not to mention cars, chairs...) and annual assessment of each persons mental state to decide whether they are fit persons to hold such dangerous items? In fact, a mental illness can come on in a matter of days, so how about monthly assessments? Weekly assessments? That's an idea, make it daily assessments, that'll totally remove the risk as nobody will have any time to shoot anyone, or use their guns.

 

Yes, that is exaggeration, and deliberately so, because "round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows". We know that the police in general would prefer that private individuals didn't have access to firearms, need we give them more powers to take them away at the slightest perceived infraction, the slightest down day?

 

The government sensibly (shocking, I know) decided that it was impossible for anyone to tell when a switch might flick in someone's head. The routine removal of certificates for very minor mental illnesses will drive people underground. They will fail to seek treatment for fear of losing their guns, and what could have been a very minor illness with a very good outcome, potentially becomes a very serious illness, with far more potential for tragedy.

Edited February 6, 2012 by matt_hooks

[matt_hooks 188]

I think that his license should have been removed earlier - he had a stroke and wasnt in any condition to continue shooting so there was no need for him to keep his guns privately. if his license was suspended and his guns either had been held or if necessary sold for him then he would have time to recover without risking an incident like this. Unfortunate as it is, a little more care from the force in question would have preventing this from happening. Thankfully only Lucy Cope seems to have paid any attention

 

So, you fall off a ladder at work and break your leg and arm. You are no longer in a position to use your firearms, so they should be taken away?

 

Brilliant logic!

[Simonrees 45]

Matt, Obviously I understand the consequences of additional burden but all too often after such incidents we hear that family, friends neighbours etc all saw the warning signs and in some cases even informed the police. This highlights a definite failing in the system somewhere. All I'm suggesting is that if the current system is failing than surely other avenues should at least be investigated. I'm not proposing that the suggestion I made in my previous post is the answer. But debate is healthy and if anything can reduce the number of these incidents in the long run it can only be a good thing.

[matt_hooks 188]

I totally agree Simon, each and every incident where a gun is misused (legally held or otherwise) is horrendous, and tragic, and another possible nail in the coffin of legitimate firearms use and ownership. I also think that any move towards more legislation is only ever likely to increase restrictions, and to damage the sport we love.

 

Automatic suspension or revocation for ANY reason is bad. Of course there are times when it has to be done, when a person is considered a danger, but the line is fine and to equate mental illness with being unfit to hold a certificate is incredibly dangerous. I've been lucky to never suffer from a mental illness (I've suffered from plenty of other illnesses though) but my father and sister both have suffered from depression at one time or another, so I know a little about mental illnesses. Even at the lowest ebb, neither of them would have been a risk to themselves or anyone else, and yet a clinical assessment may well have concluded they were unsafe to hold firearms (neither of them holds any certificates, or participates in any shooting activity).

 

So yes, the police should listen to concerns where voiced, but it MUST be handled on an individual basis.

 

In days gone by, if Bob had decided he'd had enough and put his old, unregistered shotgun in his mouth and blew his brains out, it would hardly have merited a paragraph in the local rag. Nowadays every little happening, especially one involving a gun, is front page news. The mass media, and ready access to news of all sorts, is leading to a world of terrified people. We all know that people who are scared are easily manipulated.

 

Shooting needs to stand firm in support of the sport, and to resist any new imposition of any kind. We ALREADY HAVE one of the most rigorous firearms licencing regimes in the world, and we ALREADY HAVE one of the lowest levels of gun crime (of all sorts, but especially with licenced weapons). So yes, each case is tragic, and in a perfect world we would be able to prevent them, but this world is imperfect, and especially our understanding of the workings of the human mind is FAR from perfect. The only absolute way of stopping abuse of legally held firearms is to ban them entirely.

 

As the old saying goes, "if you criminalise guns, then only criminals will have guns". That's maybe not as relevant here as in the US, where personal defence is a valid reason to own and carry a firearm, but we, as a minority, need to fight vigorously against any new restrictions on our sport. If we don't, sure as hell nobody else will. That's why I find any suggestion from one of our own that MORE regulation is necessary so troubling. Nothing personal Si. The debate is useful, but we need to stand firm!

[Simonrees 45]

Excellent Post Matt and I completely understand your concern with some on the "inside" suggesting additional legislation, Perhaps for me, its just born out of the frustrations of seeing these incidents unfold and then finding out that the "System" was to blame but its the shooting community that takes the flak. Lets just hope and prey these incidents become increasingly rare .

[jackinbox99 41]

This was in my local paper last week and they interviewed the guys friend and neighbour. The neighbour said that the old fella had given up his guns & license many years ago as he was unable to carry on shooting. What the neighbour did say however is that the old guy had a unlicensed .410 shotgun still. Noone seems to know why the police went around the house, but apparently one policeman injured himself on some glass (wasnt shot) and the old guy shot himself, presumably using this unlicensed .410.

 

Not sure what anyone could do to prevent this. There are plenty of old unlicensed guns still out there in the sticks, like where this place is, so how do you find them and get them back on ticket so they can be tracked.