Swampy 147 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I certainly don't think the major issues are now about rescources or revinue, the goalposts have moved?? Cameron himself has become a recruiting sergant for Independance by telling the Scottish goverment and people what they can and can't do! with regards to a referendum on Scottish independance The tories have no political mandate in Scotland and never will neither do the Lib/Dems I know its been said as a joke but it's true (they're are more Panda's in Scotland than Tory Msp's) The "right" to hold a referendum may reside with Westminster under Westminsters own rules but the right to self determination of governance is a basic human right that cannot be legalised against. As such, any action to impede or deny the people of Scotland a right to vote would be in contradiction to the obligations to uphold self determination as si...gned and agreed by the UK as part of the UN Charter. Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) both read: "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development." The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 15 states that everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality. The International Court of Justice refers to the right to self-determination as a right held by people rather than a right held by governments alone. United Nations studies on the right to self-determination set out factors that give rise to possession of right to self-determination: * a history of independence or self-rule in an identifiable territory * a distinct culture * a will and capability to regain self-governance Scotland is a distinct country with our own traditions, national dress, borders, health service, legal establishment, education system, flag and a history of nationhood that was not discarded by the Act of Unions in 1706 and 1707. These were international treaties and once signed the UK government came into existence and the Scottish and English Parliaments were suspended. Please note that they were not disbanded, merely suspended. The countries still exist and upon creation of Devolution the Scottish Parliament at least was reconvened. So we can demonstrate before any referendum is held that we have a history of independence in our own identifiable territory, that our culture is unique and in fact unique enough to be recognised around the world instantly, and that through the Scottish Parliament we have the capability to regain self governance. At the end of the day it will be the will of the Scottish Electorate that will decide the outcome for Scotland. If a majority of the votes cast are for Independence then the people have demonstrated the will to regain self governance. I shall not make the error of quiestioning some of your statements as I suspect that most are of a factual nature; However what you have outlined is the basis of independence. It does not take into account the massive amount of legal hurdles that would need to be completed. There is also an argument that England should have one aswell to determine whether it is acceptable...but lets not go there eh?. I think that the biggest question that needs to be resolved is who qualifies to vote in any referendum. Lets face it most Scotts live outside of Scotland and have done for decades. Look at Corby! I for one would not be unhappy about their independence as long as that is exactly what it is and not some half baked compromise. Rgds Swampy Currently working on a tender for the contract to rebuild a roman wall somewhere up north. Ning Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxgun Tom 75 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) oh he wants out and out indepence ithats his main goal of that you can be sure of.yes he knows the majority are against it.however he is will play to the crowd,stir up passion. you can see this already.the date for the vote coincides with the aniversary of bannockburn. wait till you see the reruns of braveheart on tv lol it will be on a continuies loop. The battle of Bannockburn against Edward 2nd and the English army! was on 24 June 1314, the referendum is pencilled in for the Autumn of 2014 as far as I know July is still a summer month therefore the date for a vote can't coincide with the battle!! This referendum is'nt about anyone being anti- English it's about giving the Scottish people the right to hold a vote on their own independance and by their own government! The United Kingdom initially came about on the succession of Jame's the 6th of Scotland/ James the 1st of England to the English throne, (March 1603) what this referendum is about is the disilution of the Union of the Parliaments(1707) We!! had a United Kindom for over a hundred years before Westminster conived and co-erced some greedy Scottish nobles to agree to the Union of Parliements As for Braveheart its shite!! and full of historical inaccuracies I'm a member of "The Society of William Wallace" and all that movie ever did for Scotland was give us a great financial rescource in tourism and highlight "The Scottish War's of Independance" Tom Edited January 12, 2012 by Foxgun Tom 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scothunter 12,609 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 well we agree one thing braveheart is shit. as for bannock burn,i have no doubt you know the dates.i was just going by a report i saw on scotland today. they got it wrong,but it was defo said.im all for the people of scotland to have thier say.however if its a no vote and all the signs point to it,then accept it. the question could arise again in a cpl generations later but for now that should be the matter laid to rest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxgun Tom 75 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I certainly don't think the major issues are now about rescources or revinue, the goalposts have moved?? Cameron himself has become a recruiting sergant for Independance by telling the Scottish goverment and people what they can and can't do! with regards to a referendum on Scottish independance The tories have no political mandate in Scotland and never will neither do the Lib/Dems I know its been said as a joke but it's true (they're are more Panda's in Scotland than Tory Msp's) The "right" to hold a referendum may reside with Westminster under Westminsters own rules but the right to self determination of governance is a basic human right that cannot be legalised against. As such, any action to impede or deny the people of Scotland a right to vote would be in contradiction to the obligations to uphold self determination as si...gned and agreed by the UK as part of the UN Charter. Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) both read: "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development." The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 15 states that everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality. The International Court of Justice refers to the right to self-determination as a right held by people rather than a right held by governments alone. United Nations studies on the right to self-determination set out factors that give rise to possession of right to self-determination: * a history of independence or self-rule in an identifiable territory * a distinct culture * a will and capability to regain self-governance Scotland is a distinct country with our own traditions, national dress, borders, health service, legal establishment, education system, flag and a history of nationhood that was not discarded by the Act of Unions in 1706 and 1707. These were international treaties and once signed the UK government came into existence and the Scottish and English Parliaments were suspended. Please note that they were not disbanded, merely suspended. The countries still exist and upon creation of Devolution the Scottish Parliament at least was reconvened. So we can demonstrate before any referendum is held that we have a history of independence in our own identifiable territory, that our culture is unique and in fact unique enough to be recognised around the world instantly, and that through the Scottish Parliament we have the capability to regain self governance. At the end of the day it will be the will of the Scottish Electorate that will decide the outcome for Scotland. If a majority of the votes cast are for Independence then the people have demonstrated the will to regain self governance. I shall not make the error of quiestioning some of your statements as I suspect that most are of a factual nature; However what you have outlined is the basis of independence. It does not take into account the massive amount of legal hurdles that would need to be completed. There is also an argument that England should have one aswell to determine whether it is acceptable...but lets not go there eh?. I think that the biggest question that needs to be resolved is who qualifies to vote in any referendum. Lets face it most Scotts live outside of Scotland and have done for decades. Look at Corby! I for one would not be unhappy about their independence as long as that is exactly what it is and not some half baked compromise. Rgds Swampy Currently working on a tender for the contract to rebuild a roman wall somewhere up north. Ning Salmond has allready stated anyone on the electoral roll and resides in Scotland can vote! that includes any Welsh people, English, Irish, Indian, Chinese etc: I'm sure that the Scots on the voters role in Corby will allready be voting on issues relating to the voter's of Corby and where they've decide to reside Och' Aye ning Ps; thanks for the input Buddy, have'nt seen you posting for a while, all the best!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Duncan 802 Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 So, whats in it for Scotland to be independant? It seems to me that those that want independance need to be careful what they wish for; surely if they levy their own taxes they also cease benefitting from the funding supplied by the UK central government too? I don't fear losing Scotland as an integral part of our country, but I fear for the Scots chasing a poisoned chalice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kenny14 656 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't really have a view on this but every time it's mentioned I can't help thinking that after every 'divorce' one side invariably loses out big time . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Catcher 1 639 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes we can all talk about the pros and cons.But for a lot of us.Scotland we will never be free untill we are a independant nation in the eyes of the world..Catcher. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Catcher 1 639 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I certainly don't think the major issues are now about rescources or revinue, the goalposts have moved?? Cameron himself has become a recruiting sergant for Independance by telling the Scottish goverment and people what they can and can't do! with regards to a referendum on Scottish independance The tories have no political mandate in Scotland and never will neither do the Lib/Dems I know its been said as a joke but it's true (they're are more Panda's in Scotland than Tory Msp's) The "right" to hold a referendum may reside with Westminster under Westminsters own rules but the right to self determination of governance is a basic human right that cannot be legalised against. As such, any action to impede or deny the people of Scotland a right to vote would be in contradiction to the obligations to uphold self determination as si...gned and agreed by the UK as part of the UN Charter. Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) both read: "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development." The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 15 states that everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality. The International Court of Justice refers to the right to self-determination as a right held by people rather than a right held by governments alone. United Nations studies on the right to self-determination set out factors that give rise to possession of right to self-determination: * a history of independence or self-rule in an identifiable territory * a distinct culture * a will and capability to regain self-governance Scotland is a distinct country with our own traditions, national dress, borders, health service, legal establishment, education system, flag and a history of nationhood that was not discarded by the Act of Unions in 1706 and 1707. These were international treaties and once signed the UK government came into existence and the Scottish and English Parliaments were suspended. Please note that they were not disbanded, merely suspended. The countries still exist and upon creation of Devolution the Scottish Parliament at least was reconvened. So we can demonstrate before any referendum is held that we have a history of independence in our own identifiable territory, that our culture is unique and in fact unique enough to be recognised around the world instantly, and that through the Scottish Parliament we have the capability to regain self governance. At the end of the day it will be the will of the Scottish Electorate that will decide the outcome for Scotland. If a majority of the votes cast are for Independence then the people have demonstrated the will to regain self governance. I shall not make the error of quiestioning some of your statements as I suspect that most are of a factual nature; However what you have outlined is the basis of independence. It does not take into account the massive amount of legal hurdles that would need to be completed. There is also an argument that England should have one aswell to determine whether it is acceptable...but lets not go there eh?. I think that the biggest question that needs to be resolved is who qualifies to vote in any referendum. Lets face it most Scotts live outside of Scotland and have done for decades. Look at Corby! I for one would not be unhappy about their independence as long as that is exactly what it is and not some half baked compromise. Rgds Swampy Currently working on a tender for the contract to rebuild a roman wall somewhere up north. Ning So why is it bud most english are now retiering to spain.? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scothunter 12,609 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes we can all talk about the pros and cons.But for a lot of us.Scotland we will never be free untill we are a independant nation in the eyes of the world..Catcher. a lot but not the majority. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest thebigdog Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3oz0zhEwZk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes we can all talk about the pros and cons.But for a lot of us.Scotland we will never be free untill we are a independant nation in the eyes of the world..Catcher. Catcher, I think there's very few people out there in the world who couldn't differentiate between a Scotsman and and Englishman! The thing is you wouldn't be a truly independent country if you went your own way. You'd be forced further into Europe with the Euro and have a less of a say in the affairs of your country than you have now. Your elected MP's now make up part of the UK government who can speak for us all in the EU with a strong voice. If you were on your own in the EU your voice would be a very small one that carried little weight.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,765 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Whatever the outcome, It would be a great shame in my eyes to see the union split up.......a union that together has helped to civilise half the world in its time. As a union we have acheived great things and have contributed probably more than any other nation to the development of the modern world despite what all the knockers and appologists would say! Now, by christ you are all ugly fuckers and you cant play football for shit but I for one am proud as an Englishman to be part of a union with the Scots............its those welsh fuckers I hate :laugh: All joking aside, if push came to shove in the world I would rather be stood side by side with some Scots, Irish or Welsh lads than those f*****g French!! Edited January 13, 2012 by WILF 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tegater 789 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Whatever the outcome, It would be a great shame in my eyes to see the union split up.......a union that together has helped to civilise half the world in its time. As a union we have acheived great things and have contributed probably more than any other nation to the development of the modern world despite what all the knockers and appologists would say! Now, by christ you are all ugly fuckers and you cant play football for shit but I for one am proud as an Englishman to be part of a union with the Scots............its those welsh fuckers I hate :laugh: All joking aside, if push came to shove in the world I would rather be stood side by side with some Scots, Irish or Welsh lads than those f*****g French!! Why dont you just say what you mean Wilf!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buch 145 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 The only reason i can see for the union is nostalgia. Sure its nice to have Scotland in Britain but you know what i dont think its best for the rest of Britain. I dont want this to come out wrong but Scotland is a money sink. You can say North Sea oil all you want but the facts are often misquoted. Scotland accepts more money that it makes. I mean sure its nice to have the Union but i dont think its best for numero uno, England/Britain. What i dont understand is if you want independence why be so clingy. You either want to go it alone or you want be to British. To me if Scotland votes no to the Union then its no to the pound, no to the queen, no to our cash. I guess were stronger together than appart and history is important to me but last thing any one wants is to be handcuffed to some one who doesnt want to be handcuffed to you dragging there feet everywere you go. Its bloody tiring! In 10 years time we might be complaining about all the "Scotish" shops poping up every were, all the "scots" taking our jobs and special "scotish" speaking teachers teaching in our schools :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FightTheBan 1,147 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 The only reason i can see for the union is nostalgia. Sure its nice to have Scotland in Britain but you know what i dont think its best for the rest of Britain. I dont want this to come out wrong but Scotland is a money sink. You can say North Sea oil all you want but the facts are often misquoted. Scotland accepts more money that it makes. I mean sure its nice to have the Union but i dont think its best for numero uno, England/Britain. What i dont understand is if you want independence why be so clingy. You either want to go it alone or you want be to British. To me if Scotland votes no to the Union then its no to the pound, no to the queen, no to our cash. I guess were stronger together than appart and history is important to me but last thing any one wants is to be handcuffed to some one who doesnt want to be handcuffed to you dragging there feet everywere you go. Its bloody tiring! In 10 years time we might be complaining about all the "Scotish" shops poping up every were, all the "scots" taking our jobs and special "scotish" speaking teachers teaching in our schools :D Your having a laugh surely! Most up here havent got a days graft in them FTB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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