another knee jerk reaction to gun ownership

[trenchfoot 4,243]

GP's are not qualified to state whether one of their patients is fit to own a shotgun/firearms. They can only state what is relevant upon your medical records. They would also be unwilling to do so, as in cases such as we are discussing, they could be seen to be at fault for stating that person is fit and proper etc. In today's litigious society someone would try and sue their arse off.

 

On a second point, any GP/or GP practice charges an applicant to countersign their licence is actually breaking the law. Financial gain would make that counter-signatory null and void. But many authorities (police and health) turn a blind eye to this. Don't give them a penny

 

Well said. GP's aren't subject matter experts on mental health so I guess that proposal falls flat straight away.

I believe that there are plans to change the GP/ SGC/FAC system. so that all GP's are informed if a patient has a certificate. Then they can inform authorities if anything crops up with a licensed patient. Downside is that if your GP is an anti they may well abuse the system to their own ends.

[PlasticJock 539]

yep but dare you mention that you are under alot of stress at work or your kids are driving you mad and that flagged SGC/FAC on you doctors records would have the police confiscating your guns.

 

As you said people would become affraid to talk to their GPs and it would have a negative effect, maybe even cause another tragedy as someone feels like they cant talk to their doctors.

 

GP's wouldn't risk litigation for a minute.

 

My point exactly mate, at some point in our lives everyone has problems, if all thats required is a chat then so be it, but no GP would risk a lawsuit by attesting to someone's mental state if there is a shadow of a doubt.

So the next story we will hear of will involve another shooting, with friends/family saying that the shooter was depressed but was too scared to see their doctor.

Seems the powers that be only learn the hard way, and even then it takes them years to make 'reasonable' changes.

[Sako.243 1]

I know 3 people with Shotgun licences that have been diagnosed with Mental health issues and been on medication for it within the last 5-10 years, All 3 were issued Licences 2 years ago.

 

I have held my licences for 15+ years and totally agree with MAXHARDCORE, That tighter rules need to apply!

[trenchfoot 4,243]

I know 3 people with Shotgun licences that have been diagnosed with Mental health issues and been on medication for it within the last 5-10 years, All 3 were issued Licences 2 years ago.

 

I have held my licences for 15+ years and totally agree with MAXHARDCORE, That tighter rules need to apply!

I agree. I am currently holding three shotguns (on my ticket)for a friend who had them confiscated. He tried to top himself, but knocked himself out instead. He won't get them back off me till a) he gets his ticket back (which wont take long) and till I believe him to be safe/sane again. I cannot stop him buying another when he gets his ticket, but as he is skint, I dont think thats an option. I was also his countersignatory 3 years ago, so feel somewhat at fault.

[paulus 26]

I know 3 people with Shotgun licences that have been diagnosed with Mental health issues and been on medication for it within the last 5-10 years, All 3 were issued Licences 2 years ago.

 

I have held my licences for 15+ years and totally agree with MAXHARDCORE, That tighter rules need to apply!

I agree. I am currently holding three shotguns (on my ticket)for a friend who had them confiscated. He tried to top himself, but knocked himself out instead. He won't get them back off me till a) he gets his ticket back (which wont take long) and till I believe him to be safe/sane again. I cannot stop him buying another when he gets his ticket, but as he is skint, I dont think thats an option. I was also his countersignatory 3 years ago, so feel somewhat at fault.

therin lies the problem the day you sign you can only say it as it is but 3 years later who knows whats gone on, its a difficult one for sure

[trenchfoot 4,243]

I know 3 people with Shotgun licences that have been diagnosed with Mental health issues and been on medication for it within the last 5-10 years, All 3 were issued Licences 2 years ago.

 

I have held my licences for 15+ years and totally agree with MAXHARDCORE, That tighter rules need to apply!

I agree. I am currently holding three shotguns (on my ticket)for a friend who had them confiscated. He tried to top himself, but knocked himself out instead. He won't get them back off me till a) he gets his ticket back (which wont take long) and till I believe him to be safe/sane again. I cannot stop him buying another when he gets his ticket, but as he is skint, I dont think thats an option. I was also his countersignatory 3 years ago, so feel somewhat at fault.

therin lies the problem the day you sign you can only say it as it is but 3 years later who knows whats gone on, its a difficult one for sure

Too true. The otherside of the coin is that he is a retired headteacher, and signed mine 3 week before he tried to top himself. He sectioned at the time they rang his mobile, and this never cropped up!!!

[Nik_B 3,790]

I know 3 people with Shotgun licences that have been diagnosed with Mental health issues and been on medication for it within the last 5-10 years, All 3 were issued Licences 2 years ago.

 

I have held my licences for 15+ years and totally agree with MAXHARDCORE, That tighter rules need to apply!

 

Depends on what you call mental health issues. Are they really unstable people and ever likely to be a risk to anyone or have they just been through a rough patch several years ago and went to see a doctor for prozac? The reason I ask is since prozac and those kind of pills came out 10 or so years ago there has been a massive drive for people to talk about depression and doctors were handing them out like smarties for years.

 

I don't know anyone lucky enough to have never had the occasional down patch or been through stressful patches in their lives. Most struggle through their problems and don't throw themselves of a bridge or kill their family.

[PlasticJock 539]

I know 3 people with Shotgun licences that have been diagnosed with Mental health issues and been on medication for it within the last 5-10 years, All 3 were issued Licences 2 years ago.

 

I have held my licences for 15+ years and totally agree with MAXHARDCORE, That tighter rules need to apply!

 

I disagree. Mainly because it took my force 6 months of umming and ahhing before I got issued mine, and yet some others seem to get them within 2 weeks???

The Home Office publishes guidance. The Chief Constable interprets that guidance, and instructs his FEO's as such.

So because the legislation is so restrictive, because the Gov have basically said 'it's your call', the result is an individual that is reluctant to issues licenses to certain people, or maybe for certain calibres, or maybe certain sections of firearm.

The legislation is more than enough. The problem is the final call is made by a chief constable who may, or may not, have enough experience to make a sound judgement.

As others have said, criminals don't follow law and legislation.

Another point, last year my wife's next door neighbour was drunk, had an arguement, and stabbed the guy to death (now serving 15 years).

The arguement wasn't in the kitchen (where the knife was) so he had to travel to get the weapon.

Would he have shot him if he had firearms in the house? Almost definately IMO.

So shall we make the laws governing the control of kitchen knives tighter, or will that have no effect whatsoever?

[x38 179]

i know a old boy thats got a sec1 and 2 ....is a Alcoholic and likes a beer every day and will try and fight any one that dont like his ways.and has still got them is it up to us the shooters to help police this for the good of are sport ....its how honest you are at the end of the day as well on the s/gun app so puting blame on gp`s and the old bill . thay can only police what you put in your app and it come down to us at the end of the day you make your owne paths in life.......and when somthing like this comes to light it effects the whole of the shooters in the uk ..jmop x38

[Night Hunter 109]

No amount of additional legislation will stop licenced firearms being used to carry out atrocities like this,the only thing that will completely stop the use of licenced firearm being used is a blanket ban on licenced firearms and shotguns.......BUT THEN THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL AND MAME OTHERS WOULD JUST USE ANOTHER METHOD....wake up and look at the big picture...on the news earlier they said that there had been something like 40 major firearms incidents in the country of which 14% were licenced firearms that works out about 5 or 6 licenced firearms incidents out of the 40,I agree its still 5 or 6 too many but it shows clearly that you cannot legislate against gun crime and unsavoury characters...

[Nik_B 3,790]

No amount of additional legislation will stop licenced firearms being used to carry out atrocities like this,the only thing that will completely stop the use of licenced firearm being used is a blanket ban on licenced firearms and shotguns.......BUT THEN THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL AND MAME OTHERS WOULD JUST USE ANOTHER METHOD....wake up and look at the big picture...on the news earlier they said that there had been something like 40 major firearms incidents in the country of which 14% were licenced firearms that works out about 5 or 6 licenced firearms incidents out of the 40,I agree its still 5 or 6 too many but it shows clearly that you cannot legislate against gun crime and unsavoury characters...

 

We know about Bird and this guy...I wonder what the other 4 offenses were? Do they include somone just killing themselves with a gun?

[Night Hunter 109]

 

No amount of additional legislation will stop licenced firearms being used to carry out atrocities like this,the only thing that will completely stop the use of licenced firearm being used is a blanket ban on licenced firearms and shotguns.......BUT THEN THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL AND MAME OTHERS WOULD JUST USE ANOTHER METHOD....wake up and look at the big picture...on the news earlier they said that there had been something like 40 major firearms incidents in the country of which 14% were licenced firearms that works out about 5 or 6 licenced firearms incidents out of the 40,I agree its still 5 or 6 too many but it shows clearly that you cannot legislate against gun crime and unsavoury characters...

 

We know about Bird and this guy...I wonder what the other 4 offenses were? Do they include somone just killing themselves with a gun?

not sure mate these were the figures given on the news they may even include when firearms units have been called out to pigeon shooters,I think there was an incidentup north were a young trainee keeper was cleaning his gun and it went off shooting his girlfriend ..think he shot himself through guilt but not 100% sure

 

This was copied from another site:

Another Firearms incident

 

 

 

And undoubtedly there will be more people pointing fingers and muttering about those who engage in shooting as a hobby and calling for further firearm restrictions just as they did with William Hamilton (Dunblane) Michael Ryan (Hungerford) and of course Raoul Moat (Northumberland). My problem with this is that there are a number of pre-programmed attitudes that shape the response and an equal number of factors which appear to come down, time and time again, to failings on the part of those who are called upon to monitor and manage the shooting community.

 

Now before we get into this more deeply I think I might need to explain the differences between those who shoot in that we have:

 

Shotgun owners - these people split into two distinct groups in that we have target shooters (clays, etc), game shooters (as it sounds, ie. stuff you can eat what runs around in the wild) and those who use it for vermin (rabbits and other things that are considered a nuisance). Need a shotgun certificate/licence to hold one.

 

Firearms owners - This group has target shooters (shooting at different distances and in different positions to put a bit of lead through a piece of paper), hunters (as it sounds) and vermin shooters (squirrels, rats, rabbits, foxes, etc.). Needs a Fire Arms Certificate (FAC) to legally hold any of these.

 

Air-powered weapon owners - (rifles and hand guns) which can be as powerful as the proper (goes bang) weapons and range from free to hold through to firearms certificate required (depending upon muzzle velocity).

 

It seems to me that in each and every case of firearms abuse the common factor has been the way that the Police have managed, controlled or otherwise being involved with the disaster that followed.

 

With Hungerford, Ryan was not a member of a club (and this is important as you will, hopefully, see shortly) and the paperwork was, if the people I knew who were involved, done without full checks, proper homes visit and a number of other failings. Local shooters knew the man to be suspect and had refused to support the application.

 

With Dunblane, once again the local shooters knew the man to be something worrying and had made this known to the people who manage firearms (the Police). The Police did visit the man's home and found illegally held weapons, loaded hand guns lying around the house and other breaches of firearm security and good practice. So what did the copper do when he discovered this (remembering the warnings of other shooters?), he put them on his ticket (FAC). It was these, now legal, weapons that did the damage!

 

In today's incident, Michael Atherton, held what sounds like five shotguns and one FAC weapon (although some reposts claim it is three of each!) and had apparently been reported as being unstable some time during 2008 and yet the man kept his weapons. Seems to me that once again the problem features the same people once again and this indicates some form of revision to the role and the responsibility of the Police!

 

Now some will merely start sounding off about 'removing all weapons' and some of these will include the Salford (illegally held murder last week) as a good reason to ban all on the premise that all illegally held weapons begin life as legally manufactured and held weapons. Of course this is true and on that premise all those who murder begin life as sweet little kids so if we extrapolate their logic into the human situation, culling all before the age of cognisance would remove murderers and other criminals! Of course both are pretty stupid aren't they? So what do we need to do?

 

Well first and foremost we need to understand that the best people to control the shooting fraternity itself. A for instance being that when I was a committee member of a shooting club the first thing that happened with a newcomer was safety training and assessment of the person. If the person gave any hint of concern they found they never got near a weapon and their card was marked with the local, excellent, coppers who did the Firearms role. When someone had an FAC and appeared to be dangerous they were managed and if it seemed that they couldn't be considered to be safe then, once again, the local coppers were given a call and home visits were done, often resulting in a ticking off, removal of weapons and sometimes removal of the person's ticket.

 

Secondly we need to realise that shooters generally aren't weird (O.K. if they are they were before they got into shooting and should have been picked up early on if that weirdness was threatening). A golf club is an equally dangerous weapon and just as it is used to propel a ball into a hole as accurately as possible, a shooter uses a weapon to propel a bit of lead into the centre of a target. Same game, different modes of operation!

 

Lastly we need to understand that we have more than adequate gun control laws, what we need is for them to be enforced and that with the pressures on the Police and a degree of general incompetence that has apparently existed if history is anything to go on and these shortcomings need to be addressed.

 

And of course, having come out of prison, why and how did Raoul Moat manage to still have weapons licensed to him? The same question lies on the table for Atherton today and for Hamilton when Dunblane took place.

 

Thank you for reading this - I hope it helps bring some clarity to the situation and some realism to the fatuous stuff that will be flying around after this sad and tragic situation.

 

Pax

 

ps. and there is still gun crime to be considered - perhaps we will do this later (tea drunk, daily office awaits)

 

 

Posted by Vic Van Den Bergh at 05:41

Edited January 3, 2012 by Night Hunter

[superfurryanimal 91]

we have some of the most strictest gun laws in the world !! and good on us !! isn't that enough ? there's always some twisted f*cking idiot gun or not !

[x38 179]

So what's your take on this then paulass as its your post