Overseas Blood.

[HALTY LAD 92]

I know that Salukis have been imported and added greatly to the coursing stock in this country, but reading some of the posts on this, and other sites, what about other breeds/types from abroad? Would they have anything to add to our dogs ? What about the Staghounds from America ? We've all seen on here what they can do. And what about the Australian Stags and 'Roo Dogs ? Also, how about Bull Arabs and Catahoulas ? Now that quarrantine is a thing of the past, it's far easier to import a dog; would it be worth importing some of this overseas blood, or are we happy with what we have ?

 

Cheers.

Well, having hunted and travelled a bit all say is based on what I reckon to be the case.

 

Yes we were unfortunate in the UK in the past, when longdogs were banned and very heavy penalties were inplace for deer poachers. At the time we were, and had been for centuries using longdogs of various strains to catch our native quarry. They came in differing sizes and with rough and smooth coats. And more than likely with stamina to spare and all we could possibly want for our land, which back then included wolves as a common quarry. We then saw our longdogs slip into the hands of the aristocracy, and that is when performance in the field started to go rapidly down hill.

Its true that at the same sort of time these dogs were being shipped out with the colonials in the states australia etc, but we didnt loose out alltogether here, not by a long shot.

If we had pesky coyotes here, I will bet ya, many of our dogs here would take them as well as anything. We have the material for what we need for all our game its just that (sorry but just like your saying Mr Chartpolski) we now find it easier to mix breeds to create a QUICK FIX INSTANT BREED. Our current greyhounds, fastest dogs in the world, but wey too fragile in feet and bone for regular hard hunting. Instead of breeding these faults out and producing (after a lot of work, admittedly, but its not like we dont have time on our hands is it,, our ancestors did) a field version of greyhound with strength, sound feet, robustness and STAMINA. Its just the way we progressed in the UK. We were forced to.

Back to the main question though, could we add anything to improve our stock. Personally, I found the sort I needed right here a long time ago in the 70's, and never looked back. More recently I turned to bull cross' which proved to be more hard bitten than any fast dog out there.

The stags in the USA are good robust longdogs of the sort we once had a great many of, but we also still have dogs of that quality and more.

Sorry for rambling on, but it really depresses me when I hear people wishing they had this and that type of foreign dog, when they could find exactly what they need for the hunting they do right here in the UK.

 

Dont get me wrong though, I LOVE all breeds and types of running dog, (all working dogs in fact) Ive been all over hunting with great folk and great dogs. Have some amazing memories.

Make the most of what we have, we have everything we need... I honestly think half the problem is the cross -bred way of thinking, FORGET what percentages of what are in your dogs, just breed BEST to the BEST, call em all lurchers and you wont go far wrong.

 

Merry Christmas everyone

 

A very good reply mate; but I must question a couple of your comments.

 

Firstly, I didn't say we need these overseas breeds, I asked if they would add anything to our breeds.

 

Secondly, I think the Aristocracy have added massively to our working dogs. The Deerhound, the Whippet have been bred by the "rich" in the past and the coursing Greyhound would not have been around if not for the patronage of the Aristocracy, both here and in Ireland.

 

My post was simply to get some thoughts on overseas blood. I've been lucky enough to have seen these dogs work and was very impressed by them. Of course our quarry is different to theirs, but who knows, an American Coyote Hound may just add a bit new blood to our dogs !

 

Cheers.

Firstly, like I said, they ended up in the hands of the aristocracy... you say this was good, I say we should never have been banned from owning them in the first place!!! Then we would still have REAL DEAL longdogs here today and the lurcher would be, well not as common ... but yes, like you say they did at least keep the breed, albeit without working them as much therefore their quality fell accordingly, but yes, if it wasnt for some of the rich fanciers we may have lost them altogether.

 

As for the coursing greyhound. your wey off the mark. Of the old longdog strains, we called many different looking sorts of longdog 'greyhounds' some were even rough coated. The larger ones being used for red deer and wolf, this is LONG before toff fanciers got their leather gloves on them! These dogs caught ALL of our game, hares, deer, fox, wolf everything.

 

Your missing the point. Most of the breeds you mention are bred for a job, take a duck out of water and its lost all it had going for it. Look at our coursing dogs, we have tried every damn cross and pure out there a hundred times, now Im sure we have arrived at a strain of dog that has achieved its potential. Nothing else required, but we still breed best to the best, to ensure top quality lines are continued.

Foxes, well all lurchers should take fox, but many dont. So we utilised the tenacity of the bull again or wheaten, along with our greys and produced a very good fox killing machine.

Bull arab.. a pointer/bull/grey bred for lugging pigs in the aussie bush, good dogs by all accounts. But the reason we havnt bred em like that here is that we dont have thousands of hectares of scrub like desert full of pigs in the UK.

Catahoulas drive me bonkers, aye their good hounds, so are plotts, walker, coonhounds the list of foreign hounds is huge, but in the UK if I could choose any hound (from anywhere in the world) for general use Id still go with the welsh or fell hound.

 

Take Care

[HALTY LAD 92]

There are lurchers in this country doing there jobs to a high standard, why fix something what is not broke?

 

Joe, you'll see by my original post, that I wasn't advocating bringing in new blood....simply asking IF it would be worth it. My own opinion is NO, it isn't worth it, as we have, as you say, pleanty of good blood right here, but theres some on here who seem to think the dogs "over the pond" are some sort of mystical beast, that we can't equal ! I think that if people here put more thought into what they are breeding, and only used good stock, there wouldn't be so mich dross about.

 

Cheers.

Hell I can rabbit on at times. My apologies. Its the mulled wine

[chartpolski 23,539]

I know that Salukis have been imported and added greatly to the coursing stock in this country, but reading some of the posts on this, and other sites, what about other breeds/types from abroad? Would they have anything to add to our dogs ? What about the Staghounds from America ? We've all seen on here what they can do. And what about the Australian Stags and 'Roo Dogs ? Also, how about Bull Arabs and Catahoulas ? Now that quarrantine is a thing of the past, it's far easier to import a dog; would it be worth importing some of this overseas blood, or are we happy with what we have ?

 

Cheers.

Well, having hunted and travelled a bit all say is based on what I reckon to be the case.

 

Yes we were unfortunate in the UK in the past, when longdogs were banned and very heavy penalties were inplace for deer poachers. At the time we were, and had been for centuries using longdogs of various strains to catch our native quarry. They came in differing sizes and with rough and smooth coats. And more than likely with stamina to spare and all we could possibly want for our land, which back then included wolves as a common quarry. We then saw our longdogs slip into the hands of the aristocracy, and that is when performance in the field started to go rapidly down hill.

Its true that at the same sort of time these dogs were being shipped out with the colonials in the states australia etc, but we didnt loose out alltogether here, not by a long shot.

If we had pesky coyotes here, I will bet ya, many of our dogs here would take them as well as anything. We have the material for what we need for all our game its just that (sorry but just like your saying Mr Chartpolski) we now find it easier to mix breeds to create a QUICK FIX INSTANT BREED. Our current greyhounds, fastest dogs in the world, but wey too fragile in feet and bone for regular hard hunting. Instead of breeding these faults out and producing (after a lot of work, admittedly, but its not like we dont have time on our hands is it,, our ancestors did) a field version of greyhound with strength, sound feet, robustness and STAMINA. Its just the way we progressed in the UK. We were forced to.

Back to the main question though, could we add anything to improve our stock. Personally, I found the sort I needed right here a long time ago in the 70's, and never looked back. More recently I turned to bull cross' which proved to be more hard bitten than any fast dog out there.

The stags in the USA are good robust longdogs of the sort we once had a great many of, but we also still have dogs of that quality and more.

Sorry for rambling on, but it really depresses me when I hear people wishing they had this and that type of foreign dog, when they could find exactly what they need for the hunting they do right here in the UK.

 

Dont get me wrong though, I LOVE all breeds and types of running dog, (all working dogs in fact) Ive been all over hunting with great folk and great dogs. Have some amazing memories.

Make the most of what we have, we have everything we need... I honestly think half the problem is the cross -bred way of thinking, FORGET what percentages of what are in your dogs, just breed BEST to the BEST, call em all lurchers and you wont go far wrong.

 

Merry Christmas everyone

 

A very good reply mate; but I must question a couple of your comments.

 

Firstly, I didn't say we need these overseas breeds, I asked if they would add anything to our breeds.

 

Secondly, I think the Aristocracy have added massively to our working dogs. The Deerhound, the Whippet have been bred by the "rich" in the past and the coursing Greyhound would not have been around if not for the patronage of the Aristocracy, both here and in Ireland.

 

My post was simply to get some thoughts on overseas blood. I've been lucky enough to have seen these dogs work and was very impressed by them. Of course our quarry is different to theirs, but who knows, an American Coyote Hound may just add a bit new blood to our dogs !

 

Cheers.

Firstly, like I said, they ended up in the hands of the aristocracy... you say this was good, I say we should never have been banned from owning them in the first place!!! Then we would still have REAL DEAL longdogs here today and the lurcher would be, well not as common ... but yes, like you say they did at least keep the breed, albeit without working them as much therefore their quality fell accordingly, but yes, if it wasnt for some of the rich fanciers we may have lost them altogether.

 

As for the coursing greyhound. your wey off the mark. Of the old longdog strains, we called many different looking sorts of longdog 'greyhounds' some were even rough coated. The larger ones being used for red deer and wolf, this is LONG before toff fanciers got their leather gloves on them! These dogs caught ALL of our game, hares, deer, fox, wolf everything.

 

Your missing the point. Most of the breeds you mention are bred for a job, take a duck out of water and its lost all it had going for it. Look at our coursing dogs, we have tried every damn cross and pure out there a hundred times, now Im sure we have arrived at a strain of dog that has achieved its potential. Nothing else required, but we still breed best to the best, to ensure top quality lines are continued.

Foxes, well all lurchers should take fox, but many dont. So we utilised the tenacity of the bull again or wheaten, along with our greys and produced a very good fox killing machine.

Bull arab.. a pointer/bull/grey bred for lugging pigs in the aussie bush, good dogs by all accounts. But the reason we havnt bred em like that here is that we dont have thousands of hectares of scrub like desert full of pigs in the UK.

Catahoulas drive me bonkers, aye their good hounds, so are plotts, walker, coonhounds the list of foreign hounds is huge, but in the UK if I could choose any hound (from anywhere in the world) for general use Id still go with the welsh or fell hound.

 

Take Care

 

Mate, I put the post up to get replies....I didn't give an opinion,...... just asked a question ! I'm glad you've taken the time to reply and give your opinion. And very interesting reading your replies have been !

 

Cheers.

[HALTY LAD 92]

Again my apologies Chartpolski, you sound like a good chap, I took it on a bit of a tangent there matey, I swear its the wine.

[chartpolski 23,539]

Again my apologies Chartpolski, you sound like a good chap, I took it on a bit of a tangent there matey, I swear its the wine.

 

It's Xmas Eves Eve and I'm enjoying a chilled glass of chardonay myself !! LOL !! All the best to you and your family mate !

 

Cheers.

[inan 841]

There are lurchers in this country doing there jobs to a high standard, why fix something what is not broke?

 

Joe, you'll see by my original post, that I wasn't advocating bringing in new blood....simply asking IF it would be worth it. My own opinion is NO, it isn't worth it, as we have, as you say, pleanty of good blood right here, but theres some on here who seem to think the dogs "over the pond" are some sort of mystical beast, that we can't equal ! I think that if people here put more thought into what they are breeding, and only used good stock, there wouldn't be so mich dross about.

 

Cheers.

C P, I'm not up with the game anymore, so you can correct me if I am wrong, but it's my understanding that some of the pure breeds overseas are not up to the standard of those on our doorstep.

I believe for example, that salukis have been exported to S. A .to upgrade their stock.

 

I've always wondered how the coyote hounds of Idaho, and Nebraska would do here? The stuff that Almirall ,and Salmon ran looked big enough for anything we have. Maybe they would be a little too tall for our legal quarry, but pre ban I think they might have shone on Charlie's and Bambi.

Edited December 23, 2011 by inan

[chartpolski 23,539]

There are lurchers in this country doing there jobs to a high standard, why fix something what is not broke?

 

Joe, you'll see by my original post, that I wasn't advocating bringing in new blood....simply asking IF it would be worth it. My own opinion is NO, it isn't worth it, as we have, as you say, pleanty of good blood right here, but theres some on here who seem to think the dogs "over the pond" are some sort of mystical beast, that we can't equal ! I think that if people here put more thought into what they are breeding, and only used good stock, there wouldn't be so mich dross about.

 

Cheers.

C P, I'm not up with the game anymore, so you can correct me if I am wrong, but it's my understanding that some of the pure breeds overseas are not up to the standard of those on our doorstep.

I believe for example, that salukis have been exported to S. A .to upgrade their stock.

 

I've always wondered how the coyote hounds of Idaho, and Nebraska would do here? The stuff that Almirall ,and Salmon ran looked big enough for anything we have. Maybe they would be a little too tall for our legal quarry, but pre ban I think they might have shone on Charlie's and Bambi.

 

I can only go on my own experience and opinion, Inan, and there are men who have done and seen far more than me !

 

I assume you are talking about Saluki's and the Middle East, in the first part of your question. Well. I owned and worked Saluki's in the M.E., and since my retirement have been back to visit many times and, of course, have spent time with the Saluki and Falcon owners. Yes, some have brought Saluki strains back to the M.E., but there is also some who jealously guard the pure Beduin blood. If you are going to import a dog from out there, it helps if you know the culture and can speak the language.

 

As for the Staghounds; I've been lucky enough to hunt with them in Australia and America. They are great dogs at what they do, but do we need them ? I, personaly, don't think so. We have some tremendous dogs in this country, and, once again, I'm lucky enough to know some of the owners,they don't bragg on these sites, they just breed good dogs and keep under the radar !

 

I was heavily into Coursing at one time, but the matching and competitions didn't interest me, although I did support the Coquetdale & Border Coursing Club ! These days, a night on the lamp or a day walking with a slip in my hand do me !

 

A Merry Xmas to you and yours, Cheers, Richie.

[underdog1985 27]

There are lurchers in this country doing there jobs to a high standard, why fix something what is not broke?

a bit silly

[Guest Josy]

There are lurchers in this country doing there jobs to a high standard, why fix something what is not broke?

a bit silly

 

Please explain?

[bird 9,898]

good post Richie , the USA+Oz Stags are great dogs. Any dog that can run a mile flat out behind a 40lb yote , then kill it is hell of a dog. With there stamina,speed,good feet+coat and Guts, as got to be good in putting to a lurcher .Lets face it a 15-20 lb fox ,is feck all comp to a 40lb yote, that would (eat) a fox for is dinner. . If you bred it to good lurcher over here, and got a dog of about 25-27in 60-70lb from the mating ,it would be spot on for this country

[mighty celt 996]

there is plenty of stag hound crosses being run over here that are doing there job.

[Saluqihounds 150]

Using track dogs that are getting more and more fragile with every generation has been the downfall of the working lurchers/longdogs in the UK IMO. The inherent weakness has that comes with breeding from such dogs has been accepted by most as part and parcel of running dogs. As a result the country is full of dogs that can't work if the grounds too wet, too dry, too stoney, too frozen, too deep etc etc. From what I saw in Kazakhstan not only would uk running dog benefit from the importing of more durable dogs from countries were dogs aren't rapped up in cottonwool but also a reality check as to just how the UK dogs stand up against overseas dogs in regards to durability and the terrain they should be able to cope with would be beneficial.

[riohog 5,701]

Using track dogs that are getting more and more fragile with every generation has been the downfall of the working lurchers/longdogs in the UK IMO. The inherent weakness has that comes with breeding from such dogs has been accepted by most as part and parcel of running dogs. As a result the country is full of dogs that can't work if the grounds too wet, too dry, too stoney, too frozen, too deep etc etc. From what I saw in Kazakhstan not only would uk running dog benefit from the importing of more durable dogs from countries were dogs aren't rapped up in cottonwool but also a reality check as to just how the UK dogs stand up against overseas dogs in regards to durability and the terrain they should be able to cope with would be beneficial.

not sure that introducing fresh;;new blood into our existing stock would cure all ills. ,on the bases that fresh good working blood int to what may be seen as mediocre, stock will automaticly bring it up a level...... having said thatit may work!!!.

[whip x grey 276]

bringing new blood may work to ceartain breeds

 

 

ill tell ya a story ,,,if ya only had breed to best to best,,,,you would have shrugged of the thought

 

me being a non ped racer,,,,,we have NEVER inported,,,,barr the odd irish greyhound,,,,but the irish inport from us when needing non ped whippets,,,,,,,WHY ???? cause britain is the best in the world when it comes to hardbloods,that will never changed as it stems from the miners ,,and thats were it strarted

 

now before ban britain could have been best in world in lurcher,s,,,,,but where did it go wrong ,,???? is anyones guess

[chartpolski 23,539]

bringing new blood may work to ceartain breeds

 

 

ill tell ya a story ,,,if ya only had breed to best to best,,,,you would have shrugged of the thought

 

me being a non ped racer,,,,,we have NEVER inported,,,,barr the odd irish greyhound,,,,but the irish inport from us when needing non ped whippets,,,,,,,WHY ???? cause britain is the best in the world when it comes to hardbloods,that will never changed as it stems from the miners ,,and thats were it strarted

 

now before ban britain could have been best in world in lurcher,s,,,,,but where did it go wrong ,,???? is anyones guess

 

It hasn't gone wrong, Bob, We are still breeding and working some top class Lurchers ! There will allways be people who keep the game going; just as there are people who have kept the Non-Peds going since the haydays of racing.

 

Cheers.