Breeding/Genetic schpeel- took from another thread

[Mosby 355]

I wrote this on a thread about borders but it applies to breeding in general. I do not want to rework the ideas into generalities myself. Reply however you want but I want this new topic to focus on breeding in general not just on borders. I mention alot of stuff about showbred stuff, etc. etc. Many working breeds don't need any infusion of that. Just wanted to post a general idea that I stated in specific terms in another thread. Please, generalize. Overlook specifics on the borders. I want ideas on all breeds stated. For instance in one line of fell that is particularly well known the males have lack of fertility or even sexual interest... this is the kind of stuff I'm getting at... enjoy

 

 

 

 

 

Thought, I'd bump this. Lot's of people are looking for borders and don't find anything worth their time. I am a curious guy and would some day love to see a border work hard and push some game.

I'm no genetics wiz, but I've read my share and took my share of classes on livestock genetics and what not at the university. There are some problems that seem obvious and maybe I already said the stuff on here but I'll reiterate it to see if anything can get started.

There has been discussion of price of a working terrier etc. Personally, I love a good working dog. But more of the fun is bringing young dogs on and trying to create something that I can call my own. I would pay money to create something that seems a lost cause. I would. Some might call that daft, idiotic, moronic... what have you. That is just part of the fun of dogs in my opinion... The obtaining of an animal and making it better and the generations to follow better and better.

There is a sort of beauty in many of the working terrier breeds that they are such a muddy pot of genetics that you can inbreed and linebreed and keep producing vigorous dogs for generation after generation. My dogs are a muddy pot full of who knows what... lots of stuff. I don't worry about whether I'm breeding too close or anything like that. I can do it. My dogs genes span from here to europe and back again. No worries for me except that every pup will be different... lack of uniformity.

When I read the border threads or when I think of searching for one to try, I percieve a wall of helplessness and hoplessness. Hell! I'd love a damn good working border. I bet alot of people would. It's a novelty and I'll admit that. A good dog in one breed isn't gonna be worth more than a good dog in another.

What I'm getting at is that this hopelessness keeps the border from going anywhere. Hopelessness and then fear.

What fear am I talking about? I am talking about the fear of ridicule. I am talking about the fear of experimentation. I am talking about the fear of gambling your money on a possibly lost cause.

What is the hopelessness? Borders start late. Borders are pricey. Borders are show shite. Show shite borders are too big. Etc. Etc.

Earlier in this topic I mentioned the solution of breeding in show stock. Widen the gene pool. Take a risk. Over come some fears. That suggestion was met with the same wall of hopelessness and helplessness. Nobody is really willing to do it. Somebody who has awesome borders is the first person who should jump on the idea. Why?

The reality is that compounding genetics for results through inbreeding has a limit. It is not indefinitely sustainable. Continuing to inbreed after a certain point creates multiple problems. First of all, new traits do not get the option of showing themselves. The genes for the most part become what is called Homozygous. This means all the genetics in the given pool are the same. Homozygousity is awesome to an extent. You get a good pool going and you can replicate a type over and over again. It's great. That's how breeds are made. It's a wonderful thing. But when the genes become so narrow or so homozygous that nothing new can be produced, no improvement can be made, you have hit a wall in breeding. This has happened to the working border. There is such a thing as inbreeding depression. The symptoms of this are several fold. Fertility drops in males. Litter sizes become smaller. There is higher mortality in litters born. Dogs have less fervor for life... and this would translate into poor working dogs... or starting later than is normal... or whole litters of "well bred" dogs being useless. Bringing me back to people who have awesome borders - - -

These are the people who have a cluster of great Homozygous genes. That means those genes have a high likelihood of being in the next generation. It also means that when outcrossed they will produce a multiplied value of Heterozygosity. Heterozygosity is also known as hybrid vigor. The idea of hybrid vigor is generally used to explain two different breeds being crossed. This is why I use the word Heterozygosity. It better explains what happens within a single breed. Heterozygosity increases the genetic material that is being worked with. With heterozygosity comes beautiful benefits such as getting your group of dogs out of the slums of inbred depression. Health, strength, fervor for life and I'd venture to say gameness will increase. The larger the genetic difference between the two dogs being crossed, the more powerful the heterozygosity.

If you are looking for an outcross and you use a dog that is genetically similar to your inbred line but bred a little different or not too distant so that you keep the type you like... You are doing your line a disservice. The less the difference the quicker the line will return to depression. The larger the difference of outcross the longer it will take and the more benefit you wreap from the outcross. This is why I say the people with great borders should lead the way in experimentation with show bred ... so called "shite". The benefits could be tremendous. The likelihood of breeding a good working border to another good working border that is not closely related and thus creating heterozygosity along with prolonged vigor is very low within the hunting circle... very very low from what I am understanding from my reading. Throw some good blood into a new pool and watch... you will see results. Why do you think the crosses work out so often? Heterozygosity my friends.

My first working bred terrier was a border cross. I was told he'll start late. He was rearing to go at 6 months. He was a hard mixing type when I started him and he kept it up and was smart to boot. Nothing like the slow starting hopeless stuff I read about. I got a bitch from the patterdale side and she was no use at all. The border side I was informed was not really worked much if at all. A gamble with heterozygosity could reward you double fold what either homozygous parent was.

 

If you have a first rate line of borders, it's productivity will eventually reach an end. If you were to start searching for a line of show borders... bred without similar ancestory close in the pedigree and experimentally bred the two lines together time and again until you produced a nucleus of good dogs that are crossed lines... Guess what! You've captured the genetics you want. Plus, you have heterozygosity and a new line with vigor can begin with all the working traits of your steady line and all the new fervor for life of the new. People who know little and want to remain hopeless complainers will say they were one offs. Success can't be repeated... They are fools and they'll remain with dogs that keep gaining speed in the down hill slide of mediocrity. Ha ha. The reality is, hunting traits are qualities gleaned from genetic material. It is in whatever dog shows it. You can not take that out. It is not a one off. It's offspring will have those working traits whether they are shown or hidden. Genetics do not miraculously disappear. They will remain. This is something alot of working dog men in all types of hunting don't get. They might cull the goose that lays the golden eggs because the goose isn't made of gold... I've done it. I've done it over and over. I'll do it again. Doesn't mean I won't state that I believe it is foolish.

There is a large, untapped reservoir of genetics out there for borders and other terrier types as well... everybody is too chicken to try it. It's really sad. I believe we'll witness the death of the border as a working dog very soon. Ignorance will kill it.

[Guest busterdog]

That was a great read mosby and thanks for sharing, but there's also a saying i put great credence in and thats "you only get shit from shit". I would love to experiment a little more but i only have one life time and i'de rather not waste it breeding for the sake of breeding. That said you've just described the stevens line of dogs to a tee, they are in serious need of new blood, but where do you find it ?.

[brenner 773]

very interesting read mobsey. it got me thinkin tho, instead of breeding to untested lines of borders when things are goin down hill. would this not be the right time to add a touch of bull blood into your line of terriers ?

[The Breeder 156]

That was a great read mosby and thanks for sharing, but there's also a saying i put great credence in and thats "you only get shit from shit". I would love to experiment a little more but i only have one life time and i'de rather not waste it breeding for the sake of breeding. That said you've just described the stevens line of dogs to a tee, they are in serious need of new blood, but where do you find it ?.

[The Breeder 156]

very interesting read mobsey. it got me thinkin tho, instead of breeding to untested lines of borders when things are goin down hill. would this not be the right time to add a touch of bull blood into your line of terriers ?

WHY BULL?

[Cleanspade 3,322]

thanks for posting . looking forward to the replies. could be a really good thread.

[TOPPER 1,809]

all good on paper but in practice its never that simple

[hogdog 61]

I'm no genetics expert but I've done my best to become competent at it and I believe your theory to be sound. As you say, the best outcross (if you want to retain type) is something that's of similar type but as unrelated as possible. Well selected show stock could vastly improve a line that was showing signs of inbreeding depression...*If that is the problem*

 

Having said that I've heard people express lots of theories about breeding, very, very few have the time/money/inclination/confidence/stock to take it one step further and put the theory into practice. That may sound a little harsh but but it's not intended to be, just an observation. If you can look after the pups, ensure they get good homes and are tested and monitored then go for it, I don't think it would be a particularly risky project.

[hogdog 61]

For instance in one line of fell that is particularly well known the males have lack of fertility or even sexual interest... this is the kind of stuff I'm getting at... enjoy

 

The genes for male fertility are located on the Y chromosome so if you wanted to maintain that line as much as possible and eradicate male infertility then you would need to use the males from another line (one with good male fertility) for a generation and not use any more males from the line with low male fertility from that point on.

Edited December 19, 2011 by hogdog

[brenner 773]

very interesting read mobsey. it got me thinkin tho, instead of breeding to untested lines of borders when things are goin down hill. would this not be the right time to add a touch of bull blood into your line of terriers ?

WHY BULL?

im asking the question rather than making a statement but my thinkin behind the bull blood was that it seems to have alot to offer working terriers and most other working breeds\types of dogs (when put in and bred away from). but i suppose its already there in the right percentages in terriers, so why not just use a different type of terrier for an outcross as some one else said ?.......... f**k me ! i just answered two questions with another question ... just to add, im not saying the border needs any help from any type of outcross, im just speaking hypatheticly on the topic

[Saho-man 50]

i would add pit bull and cross back and keep quiet about it lol

[p3d 879]

i would add pit bull and cross back and keep quiet about it lol

 

That would be a Patterdale.

That's been done already.

Just be sure the Pit Bull is black.

And you are right . keep it quiet and they will call a strain after you.

[chappy030 5]

lakeland terriers have been used i believe before (levi oaks lines).

[Mosby 355]

Yes. The time constraints and room for dogs is the catch. Its almost as tough as breeding good dogs but finding good dogmen to help is the trick I think. A group of like minded men(occassional women) who will work together on a project.

Buster, It is often the case that shite produces shite. But often what is thought to be shite is a diamond in the rough. Genetics isn't always 1+1=2. It can get very complicated. An accidental breeding of two dogs that were mediocre produced my best terrier. And luck would have it that the same bitch, not much of a worker produced more good dogs when bred to another male.

Like was said, we've only got a bit of time to work with the dogs we've got available why waste it on gambles? Only the individual can decide a reason for themselves. I know from my experience in Oregon, U.S.A, that fells don't do all I need in a working terrier. I also have found that the jagd doesn't fit my taste. But mix the two and I've got my cup of tea. There are alot of mixtures that have not been tried to make good working dogs and would save a line or create something that does not yet exist. Part of the fun is the getting to an end goal if you ask me.

One of my buddies put a teckel over one of his working white dogs. He said the result was unbelievable. The dogs were very strong with thick heads, strong muscles and thick bones. The dogs were finders so he tells me and stayers to boot. What the hell I'd put weiner dog into my dogs if I thought I coud produce awesome stuff. Another experiment that friend wants to try is with a cairn terrier he was gifted. He says it's the hardiest dog hes ever had. It has no house built for it it just sleeps in the snow drifts all winter and is never the worse for the wear. I am seriously considering bringing a jagd bitch up to see what would come out of the two when crossed. Then again we don't mind spending the time and perhaps failing. We'll have the safety of dogs that are bred the old fashioned best to best way to fall back on. I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket.

[Mosby 355]

Topper - I totally agree.