Attack Fell Terrier 864 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Not only is he the Best middleweight the UK has ever produced he is up there with the best in the WORLD , EVER. His record speaks for itself, Boxing Hall Of Fame ect. At His Best , On his Game he would of DESTROYED anyone of any Era at his weight. You cant be serious............any era ????? Sugar Ray Robinson,Harry Grebb,Carlos Monzon,Stanley Ketchell,Jake La Motta,Marvin Hagler,Ray Leonard........................... Ok Calzaghe wasnt a middleweight but you didnt know that....sometimes you just gotta keep it real and not get swept along with romantic sayings. No Romance , at his BEST he would of beat anyone in the World imo At his weight. The bloke was fooking awsome, he was far too fast ,Big Heart, his work rate was phenominal. In any era . Just look at how many punches he threw per round. Round after round. He was perfectly Conditioned, No big meat head Muscles, Physic ect. His record Speaks for itself UNBEATEN 12 Years Unbeaten was it. If I'm remembering properly Calzaghe hadn't been beaten since a 16 year old amateur! Which to be fair takes some doing regardless of who you're fighting against, but in saying that, you my friend have well and truly swallowed up every single last drop of Calzaghe propaganda! hehe. He was a very good fighter, one of our very best, but he wasn't super man and you are looking way too deep into the fact that he was unbeaten. I honestly think he was good enough to compete with almost anyone in his division at his best, but he would never of been unbeaten in any era, no chance IMO. Boxing is such a subjective sport that there will always be difference in opinion but it helps that people keep things sensible when locked in discussion . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Attack Fell Terrier 864 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 You make some very valid points......id like to make it clear i didnt follow Calzaghes career very closely at the time and the Hopkins/Calzaghe reasoning was only what i was told since by somebody i have no reason to doubt.....the same person was also well known for calling Calzaghe a fitness fanatic who can box a little bit,which i thinks a little unfair but having been around long enough its often hard to look past what makes sense......as the saying says " never be a fool to your own intelligence "......but then it doesnt necessarily make it fact as im merely taking another mans word for something i didnt know see or hear myself......so you may well be right i couldnt say either way for 100 % so im not saying im right and your wrong just as a boxing fan anyone can see how it looks. No problems mate , It doesn't really make a difference to me what anyone believes on the subject (not that I don't value other peoples opinions or anything), I'm just voicing my thoughts on the subject seeing as it sprung up. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, Calzaghe ducking or being ducked by anyone isn't really something that I'm really that bothered about if I'm honest mate. Which is all the more reason why I wouldn't lie or try and sugar coat what I know to be the facts mate. As far as I'm concerned it is what it is! Hopkins turned down the fight some years back by pricing himself out. Calzaghe eventually beat him whilst he was still an elite force on the world scene and that's basically that. Jeff Lacey ....was there any reason at all apart from American hype to believe he was some kind of superman.....did his record show great wins over proven top quality opponents no......Joe Calzaghe was not a destroyer type of hurtful puncher he was a point scorer.....fighters like that dont do long term damage theres no way Lacey was in some way damaged from that fight he simply wasnt as good as his hype suggested its not the first time thats happened and wont be the last. Lacy done good enough beating gate keepers like Sheika, Vanderpool, and Pemberton. All chaps that weren't good enough to be champions but never the less good enough to find a fighter out when he wasn't up to scratch or who fell short of World class. And then there was Reid, a world class contender and former champion who he also knocked out! That display against Reid was very good IMO. Reid should of been a tough fight for him and he took him out in fine style, it wasn't even competitive. On top of that (around that time) Calzaghe had hardly looked brilliant against any of the sub par opponents since maybe Byron Mitchell? So most who had a real interest in the fight thought that Calzaghe was at that time, just keeping the title warm for Lacy. You have a wise enough head for the sport mate....be honest,do you really in your heart of hearts think Calzaghe wanted to fight Jones or Hopkins in their prime.....sometimes in this sport 2 fighters say they want to fight each other when in reality it suits both of them not to as both represent too much of a danger for the risk to be worth it..............its happening right now with Mayweather and Paquiao ! Ive often heard it said and i agree that had Calzaghe held the wbc title instead of the wbo it would of been far more difficult for him to get away with what he did....add to the fact Calzaghe struggled to make weight for pretty much all the last 4/5 years of his career but never moved up....why ?.....only to move up in the last 2 fights of his career,did he suddenly have a late growth spurt and couldnt hold back any longer or had he waited for the right time to get Roy Jones.....you say yourself Calzaghe wouldnt of beat a peak Roy Jones and i agree. I say again,i never followed Calzaghes career real closely hence im speaking purely as a boxing fan.....but the fact we dont believe he would have beaten a man who was a few years older than him who a fight could easily have been made with........who he later fought way past his best......suggests something wasnt right. Mate the WBC title in the Super Middleweight division during Clazaghe's reign as WBO was juggled around like a hot potatoe by fighters who could barely string a couple of defences together. Off the top of my head it was passed around by Sugar Boy Malinga, Richie Woodhall, Marcuss Beyer, Glenn Catley (who was great to watch), Eric Lucas, Christian Sanavia and I think it was only Kessler who brought any real substance to that title over the years since Calzaghe was the WBO title holder, who Calzaghe beat anyway! So I don't agree that if Calzaghe would of held the WBC title that he would of had a rougher time of it than he did as a WBO champ. The fight with Jones couldn't be made years earlier because of the reasons I gave to you in the earlier post mate. Jones Jnr was more interested in being a multi weight champion by cleaning up what he could of in the Light-Heavyweight division and going up to heavyweight to snatch the WBA strap from Ruiz to give Calzaghe as much as a second thought. It didn't really make sense for Jones Jnr to go back down in weight for a WBO Super-Middleweight fight against who the Yanks considered to be a little known Welsh man who had yet to impress them much. It wasn't Jones' fault nor was it Calzaghe's, it just turned out that Calzaghe could make the fight when Jones was struggling to reignite a dwindleing career mate. The only man Calzaghe is guilty of avoiding was Glen Johnson IMO. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Attack Fell Terrier 864 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Never said he would of went unbeaten in any era. I said on his day at his very best he would of Destroyed anyone at his weight in any era. Thats my opinion. ... Yeah that's you opinion, and you're entitled to it mate I just don't agree with it James Toney and Jones Jnr both would of beat him IMO. Apart from them two though, at Super Middleweight I'd favour Calzaghe against most others. There's a few fighters that are about now who could become something special too. Bute and Ward, I'll be keeping an eye on both or those as their careers progress. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redcharge 378 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Never said he would of went unbeaten in any era. I said on his day at his very best he would of Destroyed anyone at his weight in any era. Thats my opinion. ... Yeah that's you opinion, and you're entitled to it mate I just don't agree with it James Toney and Jones Jnr both would of beat him IMO. Apart from them two though, at Super Middleweight I'd favour Calzaghe against most others. There's a few fighters that are about now who could become something special too. Bute and Ward, I'll be keeping an eye on both or those as their careers progress. Ward deffo one to watch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 No Romance , at his BEST he would of beat anyone in the World imo At his weight. The bloke was fooking awsome, he was far too fast ,Big Heart, his work rate was phenominal. In any era . Just look at how many punches he threw per round. Round after round. He was perfectly Conditioned, No big meat head Muscles, Physic ect. His record Speaks for itself UNBEATEN 12 Years Unbeaten was it. Sorry mate i cant be quite as polite as attack fell terrier.........................your talking complete bollocks !!! .........Most folk with even a little knowledge of boxing put Sugar Ray Robinson in their top 3 greatest fighters in the history of the sport....personally he,s my number 1.................and you say Joe Calzaghe was better .....you think Joe Calzaghe was the greatest fighter who ever lived at any weight.............................thats just being silly mate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) [No problems mate , It doesn't really make a difference to me what anyone believes on the subject (not that I don't value other peoples opinions or anything), I'm just voicing my thoughts on the subject seeing as it sprung up. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, Calzaghe ducking or being ducked by anyone isn't really something that I'm really that bothered about if I'm honest mate. Which is all the more reason why I wouldn't lie or try and sugar coat what I know to be the facts mate. As far as I'm concerned it is what it is! Hopkins turned down the fight some years back by pricing himself out. Calzaghe eventually beat him whilst he was still an elite force on the world scene and that's basically that. Lacy done good enough beating gate keepers like Sheika, Vanderpool, and Pemberton. All chaps that weren't good enough to be champions but never the less good enough to find a fighter out when he wasn't up to scratch or who fell short of World class. And then there was Reid, a world class contender and former champion who he also knocked out! That display against Reid was very good IMO. Reid should of been a tough fight for him and he took him out in fine style, it wasn't even competitive. On top of that (around that time) Calzaghe had hardly looked brilliant against any of the sub par opponents since maybe Byron Mitchell? So most who had a real interest in the fight thought that Calzaghe was at that time, just keeping the title warm for Lacy. Mate the WBC title in the Super Middleweight division during Clazaghe's reign as WBO was juggled around like a hot potatoe by fighters who could barely string a couple of defences together. Off the top of my head it was passed around by Sugar Boy Malinga, Richie Woodhall, Marcuss Beyer, Glenn Catley (who was great to watch), Eric Lucas, Christian Sanavia and I think it was only Kessler who brought any real substance to that title over the years since Calzaghe was the WBO title holder, who Calzaghe beat anyway! So I don't agree that if Calzaghe would of held the WBC title that he would of had a rougher time of it than he did as a WBO champ. The fight with Jones couldn't be made years earlier because of the reasons I gave to you in the earlier post mate. Jones Jnr was more interested in being a multi weight champion by cleaning up what he could of in the Light-Heavyweight division and going up to heavyweight to snatch the WBA strap from Ruiz to give Calzaghe as much as a second thought. It didn't really make sense for Jones Jnr to go back down in weight for a WBO Super-Middleweight fight against who the Yanks considered to be a little known Welsh man who had yet to impress them much. It wasn't Jones' fault nor was it Calzaghe's, it just turned out that Calzaghe could make the fight when Jones was struggling to reignite a dwindleing career mate. The only man Calzaghe is guilty of avoiding was Glen Johnson IMO. Same here mate its no biggie its not going to effect my life.......just as with anything we all want to reach the truth of a subject of interest.....i guess sometimes thats just not possible and we have to go with instinct,i know what i think and respectfully you have your thoughts. So we know for fact Hopkins priced himself out of the fight.......but we also know for fact Calzaghe refused to go to America for the fight saying he wanted it in Wales............ I accept at that time Lacey was highly thought of......what im saying is for people to still use that fight as an example of Calzaghes greatness after Lacey turned out not to be what he was once thought to be i find strange.....I remember when our Michael Bent beat Tommy Morrison and everyone was raving ......he even got a title shot off the back of it..............yet as was later learned Morrison simply wasnt all that so does that victory give Michael Bent more glory course it doesnt. As regards the wbc i wasnt talking about the division itself at that time i simply meant the organisation ......the wbo could hardly be regarded as the premier organisation at that time. You say a fight with Jones couldnt be made......but that fight was spoken about when Jones was a light heavy maybe around 02/03......yes he then went up to heavy for 1 fight and came straight back down to light heavy where he stayed for the next 7 or 8 years...........................so if it was a fight Calzaghe apparently wanted before Jones went up to heavy why wasnt it a fight he wanted after Jones came back down......................only to then make the fight AT LIGHT HEAVY when Jones was washed up and finished. If you really truly believe that Calzaghe could not of got a fight at any stage with Roy Jones until Jones was a shadow of the fighter he once was......then so be it......personally i dont buy it. Edited December 21, 2011 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redcharge 378 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I dont follow the sport half as close as some of you lads but I read Calzhage's autobiography while i was away early this year and I have to say I got the impression he dodged more than his fair share either through injury which sometimes cannot be avoided or for other reasons...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) Joe at his BEST on his DAY would DESTROY anyone at HIS (Joe's ) Fighting Weight in ANY era. You thought Joe was a middleweight............well Sugar Ray Robinson was a middleweight......so your saying on Joes day he would " destroy " Ray Robinson on his day ( any era ).............thats just ludicrous !......and the fact Sugar Ray Robinson in most peoples eyes was the greatest fighter who ever lived at any weight......surely suggests your saying Joe Calzaghe was the greatest fighter who ever lived at any weight if you think he would of destroyed him ...i dont class myself as a particularly bright fella....but im pretty sure 2 plus 2 is still 4 ! Who the f**k is markbricks................im not saying im right.....but as the other fella said you have to keep things sensible mate......i wont get funny like you have i,ll simply say i try not to enter into debates i dont know very much about........how about you Edited December 22, 2011 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
the_stig 6,614 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 be the last time i post on any boxing thread Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nuggett 58 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 when froch was calling joe out and joe wouldnt fight him i thought he may be bottleing it butt f**k me andre ward at this moment in time is not in the same league as calzague joe could box punch very hard and have a tear up with anybody froch prob would have gone the distance butt would of lost heavily on points just my opion butt in welsh in going to say that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,751 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I listened to Carl on the radio this morning briefly and he was very honest about his defeat and himself, no bullshit or excuses and definately wants to keep fighting, looking to the future. His attitude and heart is to be admired. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Attack Fell Terrier 864 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [No problems mate , It doesn't really make a difference to me what anyone believes on the subject (not that I don't value other peoples opinions or anything), I'm just voicing my thoughts on the subject seeing as it sprung up. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, Calzaghe ducking or being ducked by anyone isn't really something that I'm really that bothered about if I'm honest mate. Which is all the more reason why I wouldn't lie or try and sugar coat what I know to be the facts mate. As far as I'm concerned it is what it is! Hopkins turned down the fight some years back by pricing himself out. Calzaghe eventually beat him whilst he was still an elite force on the world scene and that's basically that. Lacy done good enough beating gate keepers like Sheika, Vanderpool, and Pemberton. All chaps that weren't good enough to be champions but never the less good enough to find a fighter out when he wasn't up to scratch or who fell short of World class. And then there was Reid, a world class contender and former champion who he also knocked out! That display against Reid was very good IMO. Reid should of been a tough fight for him and he took him out in fine style, it wasn't even competitive. On top of that (around that time) Calzaghe had hardly looked brilliant against any of the sub par opponents since maybe Byron Mitchell? So most who had a real interest in the fight thought that Calzaghe was at that time, just keeping the title warm for Lacy. Mate the WBC title in the Super Middleweight division during Clazaghe's reign as WBO was juggled around like a hot potatoe by fighters who could barely string a couple of defences together. Off the top of my head it was passed around by Sugar Boy Malinga, Richie Woodhall, Marcuss Beyer, Glenn Catley (who was great to watch), Eric Lucas, Christian Sanavia and I think it was only Kessler who brought any real substance to that title over the years since Calzaghe was the WBO title holder, who Calzaghe beat anyway! So I don't agree that if Calzaghe would of held the WBC title that he would of had a rougher time of it than he did as a WBO champ. The fight with Jones couldn't be made years earlier because of the reasons I gave to you in the earlier post mate. Jones Jnr was more interested in being a multi weight champion by cleaning up what he could of in the Light-Heavyweight division and going up to heavyweight to snatch the WBA strap from Ruiz to give Calzaghe as much as a second thought. It didn't really make sense for Jones Jnr to go back down in weight for a WBO Super-Middleweight fight against who the Yanks considered to be a little known Welsh man who had yet to impress them much. It wasn't Jones' fault nor was it Calzaghe's, it just turned out that Calzaghe could make the fight when Jones was struggling to reignite a dwindleing career mate. The only man Calzaghe is guilty of avoiding was Glen Johnson IMO. Same here mate its no biggie its not going to effect my life.......just as with anything we all want to reach the truth of a subject of interest.....i guess sometimes thats just not possible and we have to go with instinct,i know what i think and respectfully you have your thoughts. So we know for fact Hopkins priced himself out of the fight.......but we also know for fact Calzaghe refused to go to America for the fight saying he wanted it in Wales............ I accept at that time Lacey was highly thought of......what im saying is for people to still use that fight as an example of Calzaghes greatness after Lacey turned out not to be what he was once thought to be i find strange.....I remember when our Michael Bent beat Tommy Morrison and everyone was raving ......he even got a title shot off the back of it..............yet as was later learned Morrison simply wasnt all that so does that victory give Michael Bent more glory course it doesnt. As regards the wbc i wasnt talking about the division itself at that time i simply meant the organisation ......the wbo could hardly be regarded as the premier organisation at that time. You say a fight with Jones couldnt be made......but that fight was spoken about when Jones was a light heavy maybe around 02/03......yes he then went up to heavy for 1 fight and came straight back down to light heavy where he stayed for the next 7 or 8 years...........................so if it was a fight Calzaghe apparently wanted before Jones went up to heavy why wasnt it a fight he wanted after Jones came back down......................only to then make the fight AT LIGHT HEAVY when Jones was washed up and finished. If you really truly believe that Calzaghe could not of got a fight at any stage with Roy Jones until Jones was a shadow of the fighter he once was......then so be it......personally i dont buy it. As I've said mate, Calzaghe just didn't figure in Jones Jnr's plans back then. In an ideal world things would of been different, but it isn't an ideal world and things are what they are. I love talking boxing, especially with people like you who know the sport, but I can't really see us getting anywhere else with this debate so I'll say we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one mate. . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Gnashbrick we will have to agree to disagree Calzaghe 12 years or whatever undeaten at World Class level. Has that EVER been achieved ? On his day IMO only my opinion he would of beaten anyone at his fighting weight.., But you know for sure dont you that on his day he couldnt of beat your man Robinson Dont you , for sure. Your that sure you would of put your Life, wife , kids and home on it wouldnt you. Would you feck, because you know it would of been possible. On his day he could of beat Anyone, thats how GOOD Calzaghe was Only IMO mind Gnash. If im allowed one. Im game for a good debate on subjects i have an interest in.......but some things are just too silly to bother debating mate....all the best. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) As I've said mate, Calzaghe just didn't figure in Jones Jnr's plans back then. In an ideal world things would of been different, but it isn't an ideal world and things are what they are. I love talking boxing, especially with people like you who know the sport, but I can't really see us getting anywhere else with this debate so I'll say we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one mate. . Absolutely......i dont make claims to know any more than the next man and am always keen to listen to folk like yourself with valid views and sensible opinions......i was pretty blinkered as regards Calzaghe and you have made a few points that suggest it wasnt as clear cut as maybe i thought as regards who he did or didnt dodge....like i said ive probably spoke more about his career since he retired than when he was fighting as he wasnt a fighter i was particularly interested in at the time for whatever reason and there was a few things that i didnt like about the man......but im the first to say you shouldnt judge an athlete on the type of person he is so lesson to myself there. As regards this superman best fighter who ever lived nonsense i think we,re on exactly the same page as to how he ranks alongside great fighters and some things are just not worth debating....anyway nice to share some views Edited December 22, 2011 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gonetoearth 5,144 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 clear your pm box gnash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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