RSPCA Investgate TV Dog Trainner

[Lab 10,979]

You could probably read 20 books and get 20 different training methods. Some would say 'you must do this' and then next would say 'you shouldn't'.....why dont you get out there and see first hand practical trainers doing there stuff. If they have trained up a kennel full of dogs that you would like in your kennel then there a sure bet for experience and knowledge. Buying a pup from a strain of FTC wont guarentee you a top dog...................

[artic 595]

You could probably read 20 books and get 20 different training methods. Some would say 'you must do this' and then next would say 'you shouldn't'.....why dont you get out there and see first hand practical trainers doing there stuff. If they have trained up a kennel full of dogs that you would like in your kennel then there a sure bet for experience and knowledge. Buying a pup from a strain of FTC wont guarentee you a top dog...................

 

True Lab,

 

How many reds has your lumps got?

[Lab 10,979]

You could probably read 20 books and get 20 different training methods. Some would say 'you must do this' and then next would say 'you shouldn't'.....why dont you get out there and see first hand practical trainers doing there stuff. If they have trained up a kennel full of dogs that you would like in your kennel then there a sure bet for experience and knowledge. Buying a pup from a strain of FTC wont guarentee you a top dog...................

 

True Lab,

 

How many reds has your lumps got?

None......and i've no idea what the grand parents or before that have either. The bitch was bred because she was ace at her job to a friend who had a dog similar at its job.....and thats the way it will stay with me.....

[skycat 6,173]

consistent and repetitive.

 

That's definitely the key...again just like with kids

 

Still not convinced that treat/reward based training works though. What do you do when your reward isn't as rewarding as sniffing or playing with other dogs?

 

This is where being big and bad comes in: If I have a young dog who is messing about with the other dogs, playing and not listening, I really shout at it "GET HERE NOW!" The pup knows that it has to obey or else: it has learned this at home when I call it up from the garden. If it doesn't come when I call it I go down the garden (we have a very long garden!) and either chase it up to the house, or push it into a corner and get hold of it. It is really difficult trying to give this sort of advice in writing as you have to be there, reading the dog, knowing if it is acting up out of pure puppy devilment, or if it has genuinely been distracted by a bird, or if the dog it is playing with is stopping it coming to me. That can happen a lot when dogs are playing. So you need to read each situation individually and act accordingly. There's no point getting cross with a young dog if it is busy chasing another dog around. All you will be doing is adding to the excitement by bellowing at the dog.

 

I don't let pups go up to strange dogs at all when we're out. I constantly scan my surroundings and put the pup on the lead if I see a strange dog approaching. If the pup is deafing me out and playing with one of my other dogs, I call the other dog, who comes because it has learned that it must obey, and the pup comes too. Once the running has stopped and the pup is able to actually listen to me and focus on what I'm saying, it comes and sits in front of me. Sometimes they try to pretend that they haven't heard you, walking round you, grinning and head shaking: resisting your command to come close: that is partly because they might be unsure of you, of your mood, or partly because they are holding out and not wanting to come: they might see it as the end of freedom. This is why it is so important not to make coming to you as the end of their fun.

 

I always give the pup a treat, a pat, praise, then let it go again straight away. Then call it in again while it is only a few feet away. Repeat the praise etc. Then let it go again. For a few moments. We walk on: the adult dogs are at heel, and the pup can do as it pleases for a few more moments. Then I call it again, praise etc and put it on the lead. And I always let it off the lead again for another few moments once it has come and walked nicely on the lead for a hundred yards or so. I keep repeating this training: sometimes putting the pup on the lead, sometimes not, but always with the other dogs under control. You can't teach a pup anything if there's other dogs running about.

 

What you do if the pup won't come right to you depends on the sort of dog the pup is. You have to know when to say "Come here" in a stern voice, and when to crouch down and encourage the pup to come to you. If the pup won't give you eye contact when it comes to you, then it is a bit worried about what to do. You may have scolded it in the past, and it now associates coming to you with being told off. Crouching down reassures it that you are not in a threatening mood. Once the pup does come to you, reward it with a titbit, just to fix the association of coming to you as a good experience. The pup must learn that it has to come: but don't expect it to work like clockwork all the time it is growing up. Pups are like kids, they love to wind us up, and they have to test the boundaries and behave like little toe rags from time to time. Patience is the key, and not losing your temper.

 

I also keep a couple of tennis balls in my pocket when we go out: the pup has learned to love fetching these at home, and quite often, even if the pup is being distracted by other dogs, you can roll the ball in front of it to get its attention. It then goes and picks it up and you can call it in to play fetch, but only if you have already taught it that game at home. IMPORTANT! This only works just so long as the other older dog doesn't then chase the pup with the ball. You have to have control of the other dogs before you can expect the right response from the pup.. ...there's no point trying to get the pup to come to you if the other dog/s are messing about and egging it on!

 

I might have repeated myself a bit here, but I'm writing off the top of my head, having had just this scenario with a 5 month old pup this morning. He was running around with an older dog, didn't want to come, so I called the older dog in, made her sit. So the pup could no longer have fun chasing the older dog around, and he automatically came to where the other dog was: next to me. I called him to me, he wandered around, wagging his tail, looking at me out of the corner of his eye, shaking his head and saying "NO". He's got a lot of Saluki in him, very independent, very wilful, very hyper. If I had shouted at him at this point I would have upset him, and he wouldnt' have come close in. So I crouched down and sweet talked him in to my feet. He got a cuddle, a 'good boy' then I threw the ball for him, which he loves, and because he loves doing this he brought it straight back to me so we could do it again. But he wouldn't come close, he play bowed, putting his front legs down on the ground with his bum in the air. So I ignored him, and talked to the older dogs who were sitting at my side, making a big fuss of them. That made him come in: he didn't want to miss out, and when he did come in close, he got the same praise as the other dogs, but I didn't throw the ball again.

 

It wasn't the right moment, but by using the ball in the first place, I'd got him over the staying out of range moment to begin with, then he wanted to taunt me with it, so although it worked as an initial distraction, it might not have been the best thing to do: I tend to play it by ear: what works one day with b*stard Saluki types like this, might not work the next day. They are hard work to say the least, and this one isn't ready to do endless retrieves of balls out in the open: his mind is too occupied with having fun running about with the other dogs and he's not mentally ready to be able to focus just on me if there are lots of distractions. I don't train him with the other dogs, we were just out on a walk.

 

So, I believe in using any number of tactics in getting a pup to do what I want: food, balls, praise: they all have their place, and the trick is knowing when to use each tactic. That's the hard part. Each pup is different, and they all mature at different rates.

[6pack 60]

consistent and repetitive.

 

That's definitely the key...again just like with kids

 

Still not convinced that treat/reward based training works though. What do you do when your reward isn't as rewarding as sniffing or playing with other dogs?

 

It depends what you consider to be the reward or treat. Playing with other dogs could be the reward after doing a little training. I do think too much emphasis is based on food rewards. In my experience that gives cupboard love and the dog listens to whomever happens to be the cupboard. I also think that sort of training is a big cause of more over weight animals.

What if your dog gets to play and run with other dogs on a regular basis? Working with you could be seen as the reward to that dog.

I find those most likely to have problems with their dogs running off after other dogs are those that do not interact with their dog while out. Round here they tend to own fat labs that then run over to you because you are more fun than it's owner. Or those that never allow their dogs to meet and interact with other dogs. Get on your dogs level, show them things, crouch down for a proper fuss as praise, When teaching and they get something right go all chipmunk stylee and get excited with your dog. You don't need to go all gay in the middle of a field, but let your dog know they have it right, just as you would praise a child for a good piece of work. When moving on to try something else, repeat a little of what you did previously, start the dog on a high note, don't set it up for failure. If your method isn't working, the fault isn't in the dog, it's in the method. Approach it in a different way, or simplify the steps. Repeat until it's more a habit than training, then the training becomes the reward as you both have such a good time together.

Some laugh when you compare dog training to raising children, but there isn't much difference. You teach your children what is expected as you would a dog. You teach your children techniques to help them further. The only difference is the language used.

As an example - we had a litter of whippet pups and 2 were born deaf. This puts lots of people off owning them, but their training isn't very different than a hearing dogs. Try getting your dog to sit in front of you with out a verbal command, I bet its easy to do. Just talk with your body and not your voice. That's not saying treat your dogs as children, but the general psychology for learning is very similar.

 

Dog etiquette seems to dictate your dog should stay with you, you should put your dog on lead if you see another dog approaching, and you drag your dog past the strange dog with out saying hello. That goes against every natural being of the dog, and can lead to aggression. It teaches the dog to be fearful of people approaching and of strange dogs.

[Simoman 110]

Read the dogs mind by Bruce Fogle............

[Nik_B 3,790]

OK but there is nothing in the world more interesting to a teenage boy than girls....and in my dogs world there is nothing more interesting in the world than sniffing other dogs. He's not castrated and he's young and that is where discipline has to come in. I don't dispute your own method but I am with Skycat on this one that when he misbehaves he needs a boll*cking and not me dancing round flapping my arms about until he comes back....and yes I tried that amongst other techniques I got from a non gundog trainer including hiding from him when he runs off, treats for returning, balls and just about everything else. Every dog is different and mine was a teenage p*ss taker till I started really showing him who's boss. The change in 2 weeks by using firmer techniques was massive.

[Sirius 1,391]

OK but there is nothing in the world more interesting to a teenage boy than girls....and in my dogs world there is nothing more interesting in the world than sniffing other dogs. He's not castrated and he's young and that is where discipline has to come in. I don't dispute your own method but I am with Skycat on this one that when he misbehaves he needs a boll*cking and not me dancing round flapping my arms about until he comes back....and yes I tried that amongst other techniques I got from a non gundog trainer including hiding from him when he runs off, treats for returning, balls and just about everything else. Every dog is different and mine was a teenage p*ss taker till I started really showing him who's boss. The change in 2 weeks by using firmer techniques was massive.

 

 

And that is why you have to tailor training to suit the case, there is a world of differnce between being firm and heavy handed.

I dont think many people who have trained a few dogs or have worked with dogs can afford to be to airy fairy and 'right on' as it quite simply is not practical to do so.

Much of the old fashioned theories on Dominance in my mind is pretty incorrect. This does not mean that you dont show the dog that what 'you' say goes or who is boss if you want to put it like that., maybe that is where some people have got confused on this thread

Edited September 28, 2011 by Sirius

[Sirius 1,391]

Edited September 28, 2011 by Sirius

[6pack 60]

OK but there is nothing in the world more interesting to a teenage boy than girls....and in my dogs world there is nothing more interesting in the world than sniffing other dogs. He's not castrated and he's young and that is where discipline has to come in. I don't dispute your own method but I am with Skycat on this one that when he misbehaves he needs a boll*cking and not me dancing round flapping my arms about until he comes back....and yes I tried that amongst other techniques I got from a non gundog trainer including hiding from him when he runs off, treats for returning, balls and just about everything else. Every dog is different and mine was a teenage p*ss taker till I started really showing him who's boss. The change in 2 weeks by using firmer techniques was massive.

 

There MUST be a consequence to every behaviour as I said further up. Good or bad should get a consequence.

Firmer techniques does not mean it's bad for the dog. Discipline does not mean battering a dog.

Purely positive does not exist, IMO no matter how many trainers try to sell it, but as Sirius says there's a whole world of difference between firm and heavy handed.

 

What do you do Skycat is a dog disobeys and buggers off to other dogs?