digital scales v balance beam

[zx10mike 137]

hi all ,i have rcbs balance beam scales and they do a good job.my question is charge to charge how accurate are the good quality digital scales ,can you drop a single granual of powder in and watch the weight change.balance scales have room for human error dispite having a magnifying glass set up in front i find a can tap the scales the same pressure and sometimes have to do this several times to make sure, any coments or suggestions on wich make to get.

[coldweld 65]

It all depends on so many factors !

 

Surface the scales sit on

Cost of scales both sorts have cost and quality differences in them

How often you accureately check them

the beam scales have the human eye error of not always being at level with the mark

Cheap electronic scales can sometime have errors with accurate measures

Even wind or air currents in the room can have an effect

 

I personly use a rcbs charge master expensive but quick and has several system checks.

Edited September 25, 2011 by coldweld

[danw 1,748]

tried many electronic scales but still go back to my 505's as I trust them that said I only use scales to set up my powder thrower then once set I just check it periodically maybe once every 300 rounds.

[jamie g 17]

if your going to get some digital scales you got to spend a good amount on them. if you want accuracy and consistent loads.

my mate had a Lyman which as you know cost a fair bit. and he was never happy with it.

 

he then sold it and got a set of rcbs 505 scales. and a target master trickler to help speed up the reload time of using manual scales. he is more then happy with it now.

and says it is a lot better then his Lyman.

 

acculab scales are prob the best. but even though they are digital. they don't dispense the powder like the charge master or Lyman

you have to load it by hand like you would a set of beam scales

 

if your worried about the consistency get some rcbs check weights and check the 505 scales from time to time

Edited September 25, 2011 by jamie g

[zx10mike 137]

if you guys think there is no accurcy advantage then i'll stick to beam scales.please keep the opinions coming.

[HUnter_zero 58]

I have owned and used both. I recently sold my DPS3 and RCBS charge master. Now I use a balance scale with a Target Master trickler and frankly it's more accurate than any digital scale I have used.

 

Lets be honest, .01 of a grain isn't, no matter what people think going to change the final impact location of a bullet. Try pulling Gold medal match and you might be shocked. So exactly how much powder will it take to really effect the POI of a bullet? .01? .05? .1? Well I know that .1 grains will effect the harmonics of a barrel and I know that my scale will highlight a .1 grain difference. So what about .05 grains? In the real world, cases will have a greater effect on POI than .05 grains of powder. Bullet run out will have an even great effect on POI than cases and case neck tension and equal effect but added all together the shooter himself will have an even greater effect on final grouping than .05 grains of powder.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if the kit monster has told you to buy a Digital scale, then you will buy one in the end, that's fine but if you expect to achieve a magical grouping because of the change of scale, then you will end up disappointed or it will high light a serious error with your beam scales.

I have one set of digital scales here which I use to reload at the range, only because wind and balance scales are like oil and water. That said, the digital scales I have here will only measure .1 grains with a repeatability of 0.01 grains and an over all error of 3% , so even with digital scales you will have a built in error as is with all forms of measurement, in effect a built in error of .05 grains.

 

John

Edited September 25, 2011 by HUnter_zero

[zx10mike 137]

good info.thanks you must shoot big cals as 0.1 matters with the .17 fireball in a big way.realy appreciate your help though

[danw 1,748]

I have owned and used both. I recently sold my DPS3 and RCBS charge master. Now I use a balance scale with a Target Master trickler and frankly it's more accurate than any digital scale I have used.

 

Lets be honest, .01 of a grain isn't, no matter what people think going to change the final impact location of a bullet. Try pulling Gold medal match and you might be shocked. So exactly how much powder will it take to really effect the POI of a bullet? .01? .05? .1? Well I know that .1 grains will effect the harmonics of a barrel and I know that my scale will highlight a .1 grain difference. So what about .05 grains? In the real world, cases will have a greater effect on POI than .05 grains of powder. Bullet run out will have an even great effect on POI than cases and case neck tension and equal effect but added all together the shooter himself will have an even greater effect on final grouping than .05 grains of powder.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if the kit monster has told you to buy a Digital scale, then you will buy one in the end, that's fine but if you expect to achieve a magical grouping because of the change of scale, then you will end up disappointed or it will high light a serious error with your beam scales.

I have one set of digital scales here which I use to reload at the range, only because wind and balance scales are like oil and water. That said, the digital scales I have here will only measure .1 grains with a repeatability of 0.01 grains and an over all error of 3% , so even with digital scales you will have a built in error as is with all forms of measurement, in effect a built in error of .05 grains.

 

John

 

 

 

That is exactly why I only throw charges now admittedly I use a harrell measure but as I don't sort brass nor batch bullets or even neck turn I don't believe .1 of a grain will make much difference when I used to make 1000's of 9mm I used a dillion 450 and all charges where thrown by the machine never had a days trouble or cause to worry about the charge.I do however know that some small cased rounds are very picky and I guess as mike says the fireball is one of them

[HUnter_zero 58]

good info.thanks you must shoot big cals as 0.1 matters with the .17 fireball in a big way.realy appreciate your help though

 

The smallest calibre I have reloaded is the .223, 22.18 grains produced 3033.3 fps, 22.42 grains produced 3066.6 grains, so an increase 0f .24 grains produced an increase of 33.3 fps (presumably at muzzle as these are very old reloading notes). Which would suggest .1 grains would have increased the MV by 15.15 fps. Now, if we look at my above example of .01 grains, I suspect a 1 fps over all average increase in MV (?).

 

I have no idea about the .17 fireball, do you have any chronograph data to compare?

Hodgdon data seems to suggest that (20 grain bullet / H355) 18.5 grains will produce a MV of 3704 fps and 20.5 will produce a MV of 4027. A 2 grain increase will produce an increase in MV of 323 fps, a 1 grain increase 161.5 fps, .1 grain 16.15 fps and 0.01 grain increase 1.615 fps, again .01 grains will not effect the final grouping. Sierra infinity 6, suggests that a 20 grain bullet with a MV of 4000 fps zeroed at 100 yards would be -38.77 at 500 yards (velocity of 1650.1 fps), if I increase the MV by 16.15 fps I get a 500 yard drop of -38.37" (velocity of 1659 fps). So in real terms .1 grains increase will produce .5" less drop at 500 yards, provided my math is up to scratch, the reloading data is correct and the program is working, a .1 grain increase would produce .1" less drop at 100 yards, more of less half a bullet diameter.

John

Edited September 25, 2011 by HUnter_zero

[jamie g 17]

hi all ,i have rcbs balance beam scales and they do a good job.my question is charge to charge how accurate are the good quality digital scales ,can you drop a single granual of powder in and watch the weight change.balance scales have room for human error dispite having a magnifying glass set up in front i find a can tap the scales the same pressure and sometimes have to do this several times to make sure, any coments or suggestions on wich make to get.

 

mike there is a guy in the states called scott parker. he does tuned beam scales. i hear there that accurate they will show on a single grain of powder. he doesnt do rcbs 10/10 or 505 scales though. as he told me he cant get them as accuracte as the 502 and older lyman scales

[zx10mike 137]

good info.thanks you must shoot big cals as 0.1 matters with the .17 fireball in a big way.realy appreciate your help though

 

The smallest calibre I have reloaded is the .223, 22.18 grains produced 3033.3 fps, 22.42 grains produced 3066.6 grains, so an increase 0f .24 grains produced an increase of 33.3 fps (presumably at muzzle as these are very old reloading notes). Which would suggest .1 grains would have increased the MV by 15.15 fps. Now, if we look at my above example of .01 grains, I suspect a 1 fps over all average increase in MV (?).

 

I have no idea about the .17 fireball, do you have any chronograph data to compare?

Hodgdon data seems to suggest that (20 grain bullet / H355) 18.5 grains will produce a MV of 3704 fps and 20.5 will produce a MV of 4027. A 2 grain increase will produce an increase in MV of 323 fps, a 1 grain increase 161.5 fps, .1 grain 16.15 fps and 0.01 grain increase 1.615 fps, again .01 grains will not effect the final grouping. Sierra infinity 6, suggests that a 20 grain bullet with a MV of 4000 fps zeroed at 100 yards would be -38.77 at 500 yards (velocity of 1650.1 fps), if I increase the MV by 16.15 fps I get a 500 yard drop of -38.37" (velocity of 1659 fps). So in real terms .1 grains increase will produce .5" less drop at 500 yards, provided my math is up to scratch, the reloading data is correct and the program is working, a .1 grain increase would produce .1" less drop at 100 yards, more of less half a bullet diameter.

John

 

 

wow yet when i try a group .1 .2 opens up like a samaritans phone call.like you say the maths suggests not much of a difference.

[zx10mike 137]

hi all ,i have rcbs balance beam scales and they do a good job.my question is charge to charge how accurate are the good quality digital scales ,can you drop a single granual of powder in and watch the weight change.balance scales have room for human error dispite having a magnifying glass set up in front i find a can tap the scales the same pressure and sometimes have to do this several times to make sure, any coments or suggestions on wich make to get.

 

mike there is a guy in the states called scott parker. he does tuned beam scales. i hear there that accurate they will show on a single grain of powder. he doesnt do rcbs 10/10 or 505 scales though. as he told me he cant get them as accuracte as the 502 and older lyman scales

 

i would say my rcbs beam scales will show each single grain .its just if the dog farts or the wife fires up the dam hoover it goes to crap and i think the magnets take a few taps to make up there mind.but thanks to you guys as you may have saved me a couple of hundered quid.

[SNAP SHOT 194]

both the manaul scales and the digital scales are accurae to one tenth of a grain, i used both balance beam and digital scales,

 

And have choosen digital scales to speed up the process.... and i have no accuracy issues its all down to how often you recheck the throwing weight

and take maunfactures instructions to task..

[HUnter_zero 58]

 

 

wow yet when i try a group .1 .2 opens up like a samaritans phone call.like you say the maths suggests not much of a difference.

 

That's rifle shooting for you

 

.1 grains will effect the harmonics of the barrel and can open up a group. That's not to say that .1 grains will have any real effect on the trajectory but going back to my original point over beam scales, .01 grains would not have any real effect over barrel harmonics and no real effect on the trajectory, hence when you asked about human error, you don't really have much to worry about. Unless of course you wish to squeeze every last drop of "groupness" out of the load & rifle but if that's the case, powder and scales is only a very small part of producing very accurate ammunition.

 

John

Edited September 26, 2011 by HUnter_zero

[Sidelock 10]

The greastest effect on P o I is the equipment that operates the trigger