Terrier prices/terrier gifts

[Mosby 355]

Noticed on the Border topic that prices are outrageous for a border. One of the guys mentioned that nobody bats an eye at spaniels and springers being priced at rates of 4-500 pounds, so why do terrier men gripe.

 

Well for one, I don't know about everyone else's neck of the woods but around here terriers and hounds are owned by the working class and poor folk. Not too many of the white collar business men in the sport. On the other hand bird hunting is much more a wealthier class sport. If a terrier has a high price... if any price at all... the guys here not only can't afford it but wouldn't dream of putting high dollars out.

 

On another note... The amount of terriers lost to their job is much higher than any bird dogger's losses. A year doesn't go by I don't hear of a good dog lost in the terrier game. Paying out large piles of cash for a dog that could go tits up within the year is not the wisest investment. If large sums of money are paid out then the dog is much less likely to be hunted... I know cause I've seen first hand, a man who bred his own hounds thought nothing of letting them run til doomsday and sometimes you just don't find your hound again, simple as. Mention letting his $500 terrier have a tussle to get a coon out to the hounds and he says she's not presentable with a marked face.

A man doesn't dig with a golden shovel and a terrier should be a workman's tool not a golden shovel hung on the wall but a steel shovel to be sunk in the earth.

Another thing with bird dogs is field trials. I know with a lot of dog sports $500 dollars can easily be made back in a competition that displays the dogs abilities (granted, field trial dogs are often shit in the field). Terriers aren't going to make anybody money except by exploiting the dogs for breeding and selling offspring that will never know it's purpose because of the risk involved and high costs of investment.

 

I don't have a problem with selling dogs and pups for a reasonable price. I never have and I've said this before. Reasonable being key here. There are costs in raising a litter and I think the man receiving a pup would be better to offer the guy who raised it a little help monetarily.

 

This brings me to the flip side. People who have been in the terrier scene for some time tearing people apart who are new to the terrier world and don't know all the cultural nuances of the group... such as selling pups for unreasonable prices is against the code. Lots of these guys bought their dogs for a high price and they know no better than to sell a litter at that price. In other dog circles that is no big deal. Rather than ripping the newbie a new a-hole, why not invite him to hunt his dogs with you on some of your permissions and teach him the culture. Working terriermen are a culture apart from the norm and that needs to be realized when men from other dog cultures enter the sport. I think some men who could be valuable to the support of terrier work are shunned away because they are ridiculed instead of taken into the brotherhood.

Another thing that drives me crazy is that some dogmen will give a dog as a so called "gift" and use that "gift" as leverage down the road when something goes down that the dogman who "gifted" the terrier didn't want to happen. I've seen it or heard it several times while on the boards. So and so says, " I gave you those dogs... blah blah blah... Everything you have is because of me..." Bull like that is so petty. When a dog is gifted, it is then the other man's dog. It becomes what it does because he worked it and raised it up... It ain't because the guy who gave it is something special. It's because the freaking dog is special and the guy who recieved it helped it reach it's potential. Damn I hate seeing the gift used as leverage. Keeps me from wanting to work with anybody to make better dogs. Some guys have great dogs but i worry about touchin em cause I'll be thrown into some kind of crazy web of coersion.

Thing is, many of us are killing the sport as much as the peddlars because we just won't give new guys a chance and we bicker like children amongst ourselves.

[KawValley 131]

Good post.

Another problem with expensive dogs is they are less likely to be culled if they don't work out. Instead they get sold or bred because the owner wants to recoup their investment rather than be out the money. Fact: Money and working dogs don't mix!

 

[Guest busterdog]

If a dog is gifted then it's gifted to you and only you, it's not gifted to anyone you know or people you meet along the way. The dog you've been given (all be it a pup) wouldn't make the great dog unless it had the great breeding behind it, the great breeding behind it was done with the best intentions by people that do not or should not suffer fools gladly and breed for the right reasons (thats what made it great).

I have given dogs to a few members of this site free of charge but i'de be seriously pissed off if i thought they'de be dishing pups out to all and sundry and would try my damndest to nip it in the bud.

 

Ask yourself this, would you still take the pup with the restrictions attached ??, damned right you would because it's the pup that will make an average terrierman into the great terrierman, your only as good as the dog in the ground.

 

Totaly agree terriers should be gifted, once you attach a price and envolve money people tend to forget why they were breeding in the first place and breed just for the pound notes.

 

Just my personal views.

Edited August 17, 2011 by busterdog

[lancer 13]

so if you gift a dog to someone busterdog you still have a certain amount of control over the dog,and how far would you go to nip it in the bud as you say to prevent them making there own choice as to what to breed from it,and your wrong to say a good terrier makes a good terrierman,plenty of good terriers ruined by poor terriermen.when you give someone a pup its theres,in my eyes they can do as they wish, if they get it wrong its there own fault,

[Guest busterdog]

If you sell pups i agree then you play no further part in it's life, but if you gave a pup to someone then out of respect that someone should ask your advice as to when and how you breed and the type of people you give them to. There are plenty of good terriers ruined by idiots every year but i've always said the best of the best will come through no matter what fool has them, they've got a natural ability to over come the odds that are stacked against them. As for how far it goes ?, it's all horses for courses, the first thing would be to vet anyone that would get a chance of having one, if they sold it i'de fetch it back....face to face and tell them why i was fetching it back. If they were decent enough the new owner (the person you gave it to) shouldn't even breed from the dog unless they've asked your permission, if they did there isn't much you can do but to never let them back into the fold and to withhold the breeding and future pups from them.

[lancer 13]

in theory busterdog your probably right for the benifit of the terrier ,good luck at finding like minded people there few and far between as can be seen on the ns thread.

[p3d 879]

Just to clarify BD,

Are you giving the pup to someone.

Or are you loaning the pup to someone.

 

If loaning the pup, at what stage does the person take ownership? (i.e. They can sell,cull,loan out,breed,gift pups themselves etc..)

1 year old, 2 years old ... ever.

 

""Ask yourself this, would you still take the pup with the restrictions attached ??, damned right you would because it's the pup that will make an average terrierman into the great terrierman, your only as good as the dog in the ground.""

 

IMO A great dog does not make a great terrierman. I believe this has to be earned by the man himself.

 

 

[Guest busterdog]

Nit picking pd3 lol, i said a great terrier can make an average terrierman look great. When i give a pup to someone it's theres but i expect that person to keep me in the loop so to speak, morals should play a part and that person should ask advice if they want to breed from them.

[Born To Dig 38]

if i was given a pup and later bred it i'd always contact the person who gave it to me in the first place about the breeding and ask for his oppinion on it. and he'd get the first offer of a pup back off me, jmo!

[Guest busterdog]

Spot on

[Guest TERRIERCENTRAL]

Agree with born to dig that's the way I would do it and the way it should be done

[wulf 32]

Born To Dig couldn't have put it better

 

Respect goes a long way in this game.

[p3d 879]

Nit picking pd3 lol, i said a great terrier can make an average terrierman look great. When i give a pup to someone it's theres but i expect that person to keep me in the loop so to speak, morals should play a part and that person should ask advice if they want to breed from them.

 

Not nit picking BD, The core values that you have, are what terriermen should live by.

But every terrierman will have their own plan for their kennel.

It must be clear when you gift a pup as to what you expect in return.

They may ask for your advice, and not take it.

They might breed one of your line to a good working Russell or Smooth Black.

They should offer you a pup from the first litter, but you may not want it.

Would you then consider that they have behaved badly?

 

Not nit picking, Mosby has started a good post.

ATB.

[Guest busterdog]

I'de expect everyone of them to phone with updates, i'de also expect everyone of them to tell me of any breedings they were thinking of doing, whether that be dog over bitch or a litter out of a bitch. I don't give dogs out on breeding terms, thats the sort of shit pedigree puppy pedlars get up to. If i want a pup back from someone i've helped out then i'de either ask them for the use of there dog or bitch but would fully understand if they weren't breeding for one reason or another. If they sold the dog i'de given them after a few years as a worker YES i'de be very pissed off and YES i'de fetch it back. If the dog was no good or the owner couldn't get on with it or get it to enter then again i'de expect them to give me first refusal, it doesn't mean that i'de take it, it just means i'de (out of respect) like to be informed and given the option. If the new owner did well with the pup and in time he made a name for himself with it, then more power to him and i'de be the first to pat them on the back. If he then wanted to go forward and breed to such and such then again i'de like to be informed. To me it's about a little respect, the new owner could of been asked to use his dog over a bitch, if the person that owned a bitch was a good lad with a few other good lads to place the pups then no problem, but if it was just a money making scheme then i'de try and stop it or tell them the reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea.

[stabba 10,745]

Just wish the lurcher world were as like minded as some of the folk are on this thread..atb stabba