Plummer terriers ( pre ban )

[gravel 63]

My dog pup looks better than yours, fact

[gravel 63]

Wat goes around comes around I don't forget.

[longbow 14]

Thanks for the replys (well the sencible one`s anyway).

I am not into shows but I guess it is the best way to get out and see the dogs.

Will try some of those forums also.

Cheers.

[omegathelast 160]

I am new to the forum so I will just add my two penny worth. I used to be heavily into sensible, lawful and necessary working of terriers until I felt the sport was becoming ruined by idiots and petty criminals who had no real love for the countyside, their dogs or as importantly their quarry. This resulted in an appauling image for the sport I loved, with both the general public and the genuine countyside community. The sport was steeped in history, culture and evrything good about fieldsports but this was systematically dismantled by the disgraceful activities of so-called terrier and lurcher men.

 

Anyway, i digress. I worked dogs from the Forsyth pip line which were not Plummer terriers but were heavily used in creating the early strains. They were superb ratting dogs and mine also accounted for lots of Foxes that genuinely needed controlling (pre-ban) They did have some faults and I always felt the line breeding created slighty too firey and fairly highly strung dogs (traits that are quite good for ratting actually) so they needed lots of work and failing that exercise, because bored they could be a handful and be prone to fighting each other, not good. They were however very intelligent, had excellent noses and strong natural hunting instincts and were consequently easy to enter and could be broken to ferrets and stock. Some of the dogs were hard, very hard. Too hard for proper responsible foxing in fact and I know some of these traits were also evident in the plummer types at that time, indeed Brian himself discussed these issues with me. Overall though they were very good working terriers.

 

What I think needs to be remembered is those dogs were bred for 100% work and nothing else. At that time what was ruining working strains of all types of terriers, including lakelands and Patterdales was the obsession with showing rather than working, resulting in outcrossing for form rather than function, natural hunting ability and instinct. I remember Plummer was highly criticised at the time for all sorts of reasons but I always felt it was by people who were intimidated by his intelligent and quasi academic approach to his hunting and dogs. Terrier work is so much more than standing around a hole all day digging for no apparent reason and he said that and people didnt like it, but he was right and still is. Why encourage an unnecessary dig when a fox can be taken easily or bolted with no danger to the dog and no suffering to the Fox? This is what my lead dog excelled at, harrassing the Fox, standing off, baying sparring which resulted in many more cleanly bolted foxes with no disasters or lost dogs, very much like the article on the home page to this website. But this required field craft and a proper approach, simple things like staying quiet when you approached the earth!! All this was becoming lost on 'the diggers'. Sad.

 

I do not know very much about the 'new' strains but I guess the emerging standards and potentially limited gene pool might result in some of the minor faults I had with my dogs and possibly some genetic issues, so I would look for a non-standard litter owned by someone who values the breed for its character and working ability. If I was looking to get back into genuine terrier work I would own one without hesitation because there were and no doubt still are equally significant faults and issues with the so called 'digging dogs' popular with the aforementioned idiots but there are also some excellent strains of Russells, Lakelands and Patterdales. I can however say I/we never saw a Border or Bedlington that excelled unfortunately because I am sure there are excellent dogs of those types still around.

 

Hope that helps a bit!?

Edited August 13, 2011 by omegathelast

[FOGGY 39]

HI wirralman nice pic of pups, having been out with the dam and seen her working ability they should make there new owners very happy

[stormyboy 1,352]

Nice to see a Plummer thread without the usual bitching. (So far). Thats a tidy looking litter wirralman,and an exceptionally large one! Best of luck with them and good on you for choosing the right breeding criteria-work.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

Omega,its nice to hear a post from someone that thinks along the same lines as myself and you should stay active with your commonsense approach to terrierwork on this site,people are too entrenched in digging for the sake of saying "we had a dig today",intelligent dogs will work their fox into bolting providing your quiet on your approach and placing your nets,positioning of guns,etc,I learnt this way of hunting by 2 cracking terriermen in the 70's,they sold all their fox skins to "Cobbledick" the fur trader as I did myself at that time,they took me under their wing and showed me the efficient way of getting number's,they worked the large urban backgardens of rich people,parks,cemetries,sports centres,motorway bridges,in fact all the places where foxes lie up all day without much disturbence,everything we did was pre-planned to be in and out without anyone knowing what we were up to or that we'd even been there,some of these gardens were over an acre with a couple of earths in them,it would be quiet up to them,dog has a quick sniff see if she's interested,net up dog in and stand back with the lurcher in case of more than one in there,fox hits the net,quick pick up and another net on,soon as the dog appeared it was despatch fox and gone,these lads made it look easy and I suppose it was looking back,I don't suppose its much different than ferreting,just bigger holes and bigger quarry but the same approach,we still had digs but only when it was required,if we had a really dodgy speck then it would be a twenty minute yapper,normally a russell type,call out if no bolt and gone,we never had any permission back in those days so we could not really plan ahead for a dig but we were always prepared for that eventuality.I like you have been out with lads that do not let their terrier's off the lead unless its entering an earth,these lads know no different as thats the old fashioned ways that they were shown,all smoking and talking up to the earth it must sound like an earthquake underground to the fox,they set up camp above the earth and its no wonder every hole is a dig,I was once taken out by a quite wellknown terrierman to the stoke region to a little mining village that a few lads had invited us down to,I left them digging at the first earth we come to because this was their approach and all they knew,1 lad came with me and showed me a lot of further earths which my bitch clean bolted into nets and were despatched,they dug 10ft to one fox and a smashed up dog all day,my bitch bolted 4 and was able to come out the very next day,so you can see why my approach to terrierwork is not as traditional as some on here,before all you terrier purists get on and have a go that is just my way of doing things,if you're happy digging at one hole all day with a rock hard dog then so be it but it is also one of the reasons terrierwork is now very limited to the preservation of game in this country.Stormyboy its nice to know you're still knocking around as I haven't seen any posts for a while.

wGravel what drugs are you on you t*sser,at least try and do some terrierwork before you make kn*bhead comments,its not what a dog looks like,its what its capable of workwise,I've never shown a dog in my life and if you had read the post you'd of realised non-registered plummer dogs cannot be shown,its only work,work,work for me,grow up and try adding to a thread for a change instead of letting everyone know what an imbecile you really are,wirralman

[gravel 63]

wirral

Have you ever considered writing a book? cos you sure can waffle.

[omegathelast 160]

Wirral, spot on. I would only add that I wouldnt describe the 'diggin' approach as traditional, its precisely the opposite actually, historically terriers were bred to BOLT qaurry. Fact. Obviously as you rightly say sometimes you had to dig and we had a few examples where, for instance, the fox was mid bolt saw or sensed us and returned to earth. In those circustances we probably ended up digging and even in those cases my dog would keep harassing the fox so it either stayed put or was forced to bolt again. An ability to mark properly, find a fox below ground and follow is what an earth dog should have not some ego nonsense about how 'hard' their dogs are, or how marked up, or how long it took to ruin a farmers field with an excavation a couple of jcb's would be proud of.....what a load of nonesense. The expeption to this is of course the Fell packs where the priorities are slightly different but the real terrier men of the fells valued inteligence and the things we have mentioned above everything else first and foremost.

 

By the way, looking at your dogs they do look like the older types of Plummers/russells and very nice too. I would be very happy to give one of those a go if I was looking to start working terriers seriously again. Credit to you

Edited August 13, 2011 by omegathelast

[wirral countryman 2,110]

wirral

Have you ever considered writing a book? cos you sure can waffle.

Gravel,you are intent on confrontation,if you ask your mummy nicely she may let you take her pretty little terrier out to the park but mind you put your pink hunter wellies on as its been raining outside and make sure your back before bedtime as it gets dark early now !!!

[gravel 63]

, wat did you say, my pretty boy will get marked up, Wats that all about, go write a book

Edited August 13, 2011 by gravel

[HGN 150]

Omega / Wirral - smaller gamer terriers are the way to go - bolting saves time - digging is for more difficult quarry with stronger dogs.

[goldfinch2007 2,332]

Nice to see a Plummer thread without the usual bitching. (So far). Thats a tidy looking litter wirralman,and an exceptionally large one! Best of luck with them and good on you for choosing the right breeding criteria-work.

nice to see your still on here b

[gravel 63]

wirral

Have you ever considered writing a book? cos you sure can waffle.

Gravel,you are intent on confrontation,if you ask your mummy nicely she may let you take her pretty little terrier out to the park but mind you put your pink hunter wellies on as its been raining outside and make sure your back before bedtime as it gets dark early now !!!

just got back from the park and my pup got ragged by a pug, not a happy chappie

[wirral countryman 2,110]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank the lads that sent me the pm's and as expected both dog pups went straight away,I will be testing my pup and those that come out with me and if they make the grade then I will do a repeat mating for those that were interested,thanks again,wirralman