Dominance issues within my pack

[skycat 6,173]

A hugely valid point there C.

 

I have to be a lot more careful during the summer with my pack when they're not getting the work load they do in the winter. This particularly applies to the black terrier who has to kill to feel fulfilled. One of the ways I keep them happy is by bushing for rabbits: nowhere near the challenge the black bitch needs but it does satisfy the desire to get her mouth round fur and allow her to do something productive.

 

I also know that the very act of hunting, even if the hunt is unsuccessful, focuses the dogs away from each other and on to the prey, so getting them to hunt rabbits through cover is a great way to banish boredom, irritability and the possibility of fall outs within the pack.

 

The most annoying dogs I've had have been Collie based, forever trying to wind up the other dogs when they're not actively hunting/working: there's that tendency to chivvy and herd them: yes, even lurchers with very little Collie blood in them, but the traits are there nonetheless.

 

Keeping dogs well exercised also helps to turn off unwanted behaviour at home. In fact, most of my dogs simply chill out during the day, but it still comes down to allowing or not allowing certain behaviour.

 

Nearly all the bad behaviour I've seen in dogs was because the owner allowed the dogs to behave in a certain way, not because there was a real problem between the dogs. All the well behaved groups of dogs I come into contact with are like that because the owner expects and demands it.

 

If mine are playing tag, something which I only allow between certain dogs by the way, the moment it looks as though one dog might be getting a bit too excited, vocalising or barging too much, I call a halt, call that dog in and put it on the lead. Do that a few times and they soon put two and two together and realise that they have to play in a way which is acceptable to everyone, including me.

 

Admittedly I do have a couple of dogs which can't be trusted to run together in play, and a bitch who can only be allowed to run with a male dog or she starts getting pushy. The other thing to remember is that terriers and lurchers can be very different animals mentally: behaviour which is acceptable to a terrier might seem like a full on attack to a more sensitive lurcher. Another reason I don't mix terriers and lurchers expect when actually working. IMO some, quite a few, terriers are prone to pushing their weight around given half a chance. I don't have terriers in the house, and they have their own kennels and runs outside.

 

The very nature of a terrier means that, for the most part, you have to treat them differently to the majority of lurchers. A dog which can kill another biting animal bigger than itself normally has a mindset different to a sighthound based dog. OK, there's always exceptions, but that hair trigger terrier nature IMO, needs a much harder hand than your typical lurcher.

 

I'm still waiting for Tyla's response to the comment I made on his terrier attacking the other dog whilst it was sleeping........there is a really serious issue there which to my mind has nothing to do with dominance, more to do with resentment, hatred, unresolved jealousy issues. Damn! I so wish you lived closer: I'd love to see this dog in action: its got me really intrigued now!

[liam mc 18]

A hugely valid point there C.

 

I have to be a lot more careful during the summer with my pack when they're not getting the work load they do in the winter. This particularly applies to the black terrier who has to kill to feel fulfilled. One of the ways I keep them happy is by bushing for rabbits: nowhere near the challenge the black bitch needs but it does satisfy the desire to get her mouth round fur and allow her to do something productive.

 

I also know that the very act of hunting, even if the hunt is unsuccessful, focuses the dogs away from each other and on to the prey, so getting them to hunt rabbits through cover is a great way to banish boredom, irritability and the possibility of fall outs within the pack.

 

The most annoying dogs I've had have been Collie based, forever trying to wind up the other dogs when they're not actively hunting/working: there's that tendency to chivvy and herd them: yes, even lurchers with very little Collie blood in them, but the traits are there nonetheless.

 

Keeping dogs well exercised also helps to turn off unwanted behaviour at home. In fact, most of my dogs simply chill out during the day, but it still comes down to allowing or not allowing certain behaviour.

 

Nearly all the bad behaviour I've seen in dogs was because the owner allowed the dogs to behave in a certain way, not because there was a real problem between the dogs. All the well behaved groups of dogs I come into contact with are like that because the owner expects and demands it.

 

If mine are playing tag, something which I only allow between certain dogs by the way, the moment it looks as though one dog might be getting a bit too excited, vocalising or barging too much, I call a halt, call that dog in and put it on the lead. Do that a few times and they soon put two and two together and realise that they have to play in a way which is acceptable to everyone, including me.

 

Admittedly I do have a couple of dogs which can't be trusted to run together in play, and a bitch who can only be allowed to run with a male dog or she starts getting pushy. The other thing to remember is that terriers and lurchers can be very different animals mentally: behaviour which is acceptable to a terrier might seem like a full on attack to a more sensitive lurcher. Another reason I don't mix terriers and lurchers expect when actually working. IMO some, quite a few, terriers are prone to pushing their weight around given half a chance. I don't have terriers in the house, and they have their own kennels and runs outside.

 

The very nature of a terrier means that, for the most part, you have to treat them differently to the majority of lurchers. A dog which can kill another biting animal bigger than itself normally has a mindset different to a sighthound based dog. OK, there's always exceptions, but that hair trigger terrier nature IMO, needs a much harder hand than your typical lurcher.

 

I'm still waiting for Tyla's response to the comment I made on his terrier attacking the other dog whilst it was sleeping........there is a really serious issue there which to my mind has nothing to do with dominance, more to do with resentment, hatred, unresolved jealousy issues. Damn! I so wish you lived closer: I'd love to see this dog in action: its got me really intrigued now!

Hi Skycat, please dont take this as a slight to your obvious experience, but it could also be that the terrier is simply a sly shit and takes his chances when he sees it I think as you said to really help tyla it would be best to be there and witness whats happening within the pack , to complicate it without witnessing might not help the situation, my apologies if I come across as trying to dish you as i absolutely am not just believe it best to start fixing problems with absolute basics so as not to confuse less experienced owners .

[Tyla 3,179]

Sorry Penny, missed your question. The dogs are not full time kennelled, they sleep in at night for security and in the evenings they are usually in the house. Thats when he had a pop at him.

 

We've been doing alot of watching and thinking these last few days. The trigger seems to be over zealous guarding of my wife although i think the root cause is manyfold, Ollie maturing and upping his game workwise, no longer being the youngest in the pack, frustration at lack of work due to the time of year etc. The behaviour starts when the terrier starts edging closer to her and eyeing up the other one. Parker doesnt seem to have to do anything to cause this, its just something the terrier gets in his head. Anyway, now i know what im looking for i've been able to nip it in the bud twice without him ever getting going. Simply calling him away from my wife and running through a load of basic commands totally distracts him and he shows no inclination to continue once hes out of the zone as it were.

 

Im pretty sure its not to do with the bitches, the older one is pretty regular with her seasons and not due yet and neither male is showing any interest in the pup in that way.

 

Its very hard to describe behaviour through the written word, hats off to people who write dog behaviour books. Trying to describe the very subtle changes in body language which precede these incidents is difficult but, fingers crossed, now im fairly sure what im looking for it should be easier to pre empt them

Edited July 14, 2011 by Tyla

[skycat 6,173]

No worries Liam. That's what a forum should be like: everyone offering their views on a subject: there isn't a day goes by when I don't learn something from someone, or more often, from a dog :thumbs:

[Casso 1,261]

Sorry Penny, missed your question. The dogs are not full time kennelled, they sleep in at night for security and in the evenings they are usually in the house. Thats when he had a pop at him.

 

We've been doing alot of watching and thinking these last few days. The trigger seems to be over zealous guarding of my wife although i think the root cause is manyfold, Ollie maturing and upping his game workwise, no longer being the youngest in the pack, frustration at lack of work due to the time of year etc. The behaviour starts when the terrier starts edging closer to her and eyeing up the other one. Parker doesnt seem to have to do anything to cause this, its just something the terrier gets in his head. Anyway, now i know what im looking for i've been able to nip it in the bud twice without him ever getting going. Simply calling him away from my wife and running through a load of basic commands totally distracts him and he shows no inclination to continue once hes out of the zone as it were.

 

Im pretty sure its not to do with the bitches, the older one is pretty regular with her seasons and not due yet and neither male is showing any interest in the pup in that way.

 

Its very hard to describe behaviour through the written word, hats off to people who write dog behaviour books. Trying to describe the very subtle changes in body language which precede these incidents is difficult but, fingers crossed, now im fairly sure what im looking for it should be easier to pre empt them

 

if i could just follow on from that post Tyla, i dont want to pry into your private life, but could the dog be omitting emotions gathered from you,ie protective of your wife which is a natural t hing and or does your wife have fears over the situation with the dogs and the behaviour shown, in some cases the behaviour can become self fulfilling in its self,,thanks,

[Tyla 3,179]

Sorry Penny, missed your question. The dogs are not full time kennelled, they sleep in at night for security and in the evenings they are usually in the house. Thats when he had a pop at him.

 

We've been doing alot of watching and thinking these last few days. The trigger seems to be over zealous guarding of my wife although i think the root cause is manyfold, Ollie maturing and upping his game workwise, no longer being the youngest in the pack, frustration at lack of work due to the time of year etc. The behaviour starts when the terrier starts edging closer to her and eyeing up the other one. Parker doesnt seem to have to do anything to cause this, its just something the terrier gets in his head. Anyway, now i know what im looking for i've been able to nip it in the bud twice without him ever getting going. Simply calling him away from my wife and running through a load of basic commands totally distracts him and he shows no inclination to continue once hes out of the zone as it were.

 

Im pretty sure its not to do with the bitches, the older one is pretty regular with her seasons and not due yet and neither male is showing any interest in the pup in that way.

 

Its very hard to describe behaviour through the written word, hats off to people who write dog behaviour books. Trying to describe the very subtle changes in body language which precede these incidents is difficult but, fingers crossed, now im fairly sure what im looking for it should be easier to pre empt them

 

if i could just follow on from that post Tyla, i dont want to pry into your private life, but could the dog be omitting emotions gathered from you,ie protective of your wife which is a natural t hing and or does your wife have fears over the situation with the dogs and the behaviour shown, in some cases the behaviour can become self fulfilling in its self,,thanks,

 

Not a problem mate. Im pretty sure its not that, Amy is very good with the dogs, working, walking, training and excercize is all shared and she has no problem keeping on top of them. I think we have been a bit lax over the last few weeks and maybe let him get away with things without realising and now its bitten us on the arse. I have to admit though, now i dont trust him and i think he picks up on that. I have to make an effort to try and keep things normal while still being aware. It does make it worse, if he thinks im watching him too much he'll skulk about and try and sit very close to me which could easily turn into the guarding behaviour im want to stop.

 

Anyway, much better today. Not shown any inclination to be a twat. We've spent more time with them over the last few days, really walked the arse of them and done some training bits and bobs so hes earning our attention. Another progress report tomorrow

[troter58 1,711]

Sorry Penny, missed your question. The dogs are not full time kennelled, they sleep in at night for security and in the evenings they are usually in the house. Thats when he had a pop at him.

 

We've been doing alot of watching and thinking these last few days. The trigger seems to be over zealous guarding of my wife although i think the root cause is manyfold, Ollie maturing and upping his game workwise, no longer being the youngest in the pack, frustration at lack of work due to the time of year etc. The behaviour starts when the terrier starts edging closer to her and eyeing up the other one. Parker doesnt seem to have to do anything to cause this, its just something the terrier gets in his head. Anyway, now i know what im looking for i've been able to nip it in the bud twice without him ever getting going. Simply calling him away from my wife and running through a load of basic commands totally distracts him and he shows no inclination to continue once hes out of the zone as it were.

 

Im pretty sure its not to do with the bitches, the older one is pretty regular with her seasons and not due yet and neither male is showing any interest in the pup in that way.

 

Its very hard to describe behaviour through the written word, hats off to people who write dog behaviour books. Trying to describe the very subtle changes in body language which precede these incidents is difficult but, fingers crossed, now im fairly sure what im looking for it should be easier to pre empt them

 

if i could just follow on from that post Tyla, i dont want to pry into your private life, but could the dog be omitting emotions gathered from you,ie protective of your wife which is a natural t hing and or does your wife have fears over the situation with the dogs and the behaviour shown, in some cases the behaviour can become self fulfilling in its self,,thanks,

 

Not a problem mate. Im pretty sure its not that, Amy is very good with the dogs, working, walking, training and excercize is all shared and she has no problem keeping on top of them. I think we have been a bit lax over the last few weeks and maybe let him get away with things without realising and now its bitten us on the arse. I have to admit though, now i dont trust him and i think he picks up on that. I have to make an effort to try and keep things normal while still being aware. It does make it worse, if he thinks im watching him too much he'll skulk about and try and sit very close to me which could easily turn into the guarding behaviour im want to stop.

 

Anyway, much better today. Not shown any inclination to be a twat. We've spent more time with them over the last few days, really walked the arse of them and done some training bits and bobs so hes earning our attention. Another progress report tomorrow

keep on him mate and atb hope it works out for you and the dog

[Tyla 3,179]

So far so good, touch wood. Been watching like a hawk and jumping on any signs before he even knows he's making them. It seems to be working and its much less frequent now. Must just be careful not to get complacent.

[Neal 1,866]

Congratulations Tyla. Although sorting out the root of the problem should have a better and more long term effect than treating the symptoms it can be so difficult to find the root sometimes. Thinking outside the box can help which is where a forum like this, with so many people ready to bounce some ideas around, can help.

[assassingirl 1]

hello all, I am the 'wife' in this situation.

Since this post was originally written we havent had many incidents. About a month ago ollie had a go at parker in the car just before i got them out as I pushed parker further back into the boot, i believe ollie saw this as i was getting parker, and so should he, fortunately in this situation parker put him nicely in his place. Parker used to have a bit of a problem with meeting other male dogs out and about, but with training he is very good, not having any issues with male dogs for at least 1 and half years. So when this happened parker held ollie's head in his mouth whilst growling. In response to this ollie cowered down to him. this still proves to ollie that he cant beat parker whilst parkers on the ball.

 

In response to those who said about the pup coming into season, she came in about 2 weeks ago, as did the other bitch. The boys have been staying in the house together, with the girls in the kennel all the time.

 

There has never been any of this terrier aggression at night. they have slept together and been left together with no problems. I believe ollie needs an audience, OR its being triggered by myself.

 

Yesterday ollie had another go at parker whilst parker was asleep in the garden, in my absence at 'Tyla's fathers house with his sister present. His sister was throwing a stick for ollie and he was playing nicely, as soon as the stick throwing game stopped he went straight for parker.

 

What baffles me is that he can spend 99% of his time being happy with parker, they play together, sleep together, hunt together. Its not a case of two dogs that just dont like each other which is something i have witnessed before. This attacking whilst parker is asleep is something I, and many other people have never experienced before.

 

After the attack yesterday we locked ollie outside and ingored him all day and night. After we returned from lamping parker last night ollie approached parker and started licking parkers lips something which i understand is a submissive behaviour?

 

Thanks to those that have posted previously and thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

[assassingirl 1]

Just to add, there is never any aggression in our pack. one dog doesnt grumble at the other. at feeding times they are all expected to sit and they get to eat as their names are called, in order of their age. they are not posessive over toys or chews or catches (rabbits) they have never shown aggression to either of us. Many people have asked me how my dogs are so well trained and why dont they pull on the lead, or bark a lot. I like to think i run a tight ship. I expect perfect behaviour from them and if this isnt the case i will discipline as neccessary, regardless of the situation.

[Casso 1,261]

hello all, I am the 'wife' in this situation.

Since this post was originally written we havent had many incidents. About a month ago ollie had a go at parker in the car just before i got them out as I pushed parker further back into the boot, i believe ollie saw this as i was getting parker, and so should he, fortunately in this situation parker put him nicely in his place. Parker used to have a bit of a problem with meeting other male dogs out and about, but with training he is very good, not having any issues with male dogs for at least 1 and half years. So when this happened parker held ollie's head in his mouth whilst growling. In response to this ollie cowered down to him. this still proves to ollie that he cant beat parker whilst parkers on the ball.

 

In response to those who said about the pup coming into season, she came in about 2 weeks ago, as did the other bitch. The boys have been staying in the house together, with the girls in the kennel all the time.

 

There has never been any of this terrier aggression at night. they have slept together and been left together with no problems. I believe ollie needs an audience, OR its being triggered by myself.

 

Yesterday ollie had another go at parker whilst parker was asleep in the garden, in my absence at 'Tyla's fathers house with his sister present. His sister was throwing a stick for ollie and he was playing nicely, as soon as the stick throwing game stopped he went straight for parker.

 

What baffles me is that he can spend 99% of his time being happy with parker, they play together, sleep together, hunt together. Its not a case of two dogs that just dont like each other which is something i have witnessed before. This attacking whilst parker is asleep is something I, and many other people have never experienced before.

 

After the attack yesterday we locked ollie outside and ingored him all day and night. After we returned from lamping parker last night ollie approached parker and started licking parkers lips something which i understand is a submissive behaviour?

 

Thanks to those that have posted previously and thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

i think it will occur again,ollie see's parker as a way of resolving drive energy by the sound of it,

when ollie's in drive like the stick throwing issue, when that stopped,parker became the focus of his drive energy ,because energy was still in his system

 

its nothing got to do with dominance,,think of two terriers tied together at a dig ,they can happily live together at home but once the excitement ,energy of the dig seep into the terriers its only a matter of time before one of them overload,then all hell breaks loose,,

 

it doesn't matter which dog is bigger or stronger, its not about taking over the pack or any of that stuff ,its about resolving drive energy ,its unconscious behavior ,

 

they will be able to live together on a day to day basis, but the drive energy is slowly building up inside ollie,,and once it gets to break point any trigger will cause it to spill over,,

use tug items to resolve his energy, it will greatly help his( anger)drive issues ,and the attention will be drawn away from parker,

it may not happen overnight , best of luck

[Tyla 3,179]

That is a whole new slant on it Casso, makes alot of sense. I thought this was pretty much resolved, the symptoms if not the cause, but obviously not. Thanks for everyones input before and hopefully again. Bloody dogs.