Dominance issues within my pack

[Neal 1,866]

I find this whole issue of dominance, pack instinct etc in dogs fascinating. The problem is that, like most things, the perceived "right thing to do" keeps changing and eventually goes full circle.

 

My wife bought me a book for Christmas by that bloke from Devon who's lived with a pack of wolves in the wild. Although I disagreed with some things in it, a lot made sense and I found a lot of it was echoed by a recent run of articles by Jackie Drakeford in the CW.

 

The main things was that hierarchy in packs isn't defined (according to the book) in the same way that most people think. One example is that the REAL pack leader isn't the one who tells everyone else off but one of the "heavies." The real pack leader is the strong silent type.

 

Another example is that most books on dog behaviour tell us that a dog trying to go through a doorway etc first is trying to be dominant. I'd always assumed this was true but found one thing odd: my first kelpie always walked in front on the lead until I got my second, who was definitely below him in rank, and she moved in front and he walked slightly behind me. Then, when I got my third, she moved in front while the other bitch went just behind me and the male moved to my right hand side. Although I accepted this it never quite made sense until I read in the book the theory that it's a lower ranking animal which goes first to "test for danger" and it suddenly all made sense. I suppose it's a bit like food tasters for the king in the middle ages.

 

I hasten to add that I'm certainly not trying to disagree with anybody above, just pointing out that pack hierarchies, and the roles within packs in particular, may be more complicated than we think.

[skycat 6,173]

Good point Neal.

 

However, even within well ordered and stable packs there can arise a rogue element, a situation which a pack member finds intolerable, for whatever reason. In the wild, a pack member can leave if they find life intolerable, or a trouble maker might be driven out: our dogs can't organise their own lives in this way: we put them into situations and expect them to live by the rules we establish. This is fine most of the time, but occasionally a dog finds itself in a position which slowly becomes intolerable, for whatever reason. It is recognising this that owners often find difficult: the WHY something is happening.

 

Sometimes things happen for reasons that no one can understand. There was a very good documentary on a pack of wolves some years ago. The pack actually drove out one of the most successful hunters in the pack. A female, who was very submissive, but they drove her out all the same. Why? You would have thought that the pack would have benefited from having such a good provider of food in their midst, but they drove her out.

 

Or was her ultra submissive posturing a blind? Did the others see her as a threat to their position? Can animals be jealous of another's talents? Was her 'ever so humble' attitude actually masking an intention to rise above her current status? Or was it even more complicated? Was she about to come into season? Something which only the high ranking females would be allowed to do? Did her genes dictate that she should be the one to branch out and form a a new pack, which would have had a high chance of success due to her hunting ability?

 

There is so much we don't know about dogs!

[Sirius 1,391]

Tyla, there is some good info on this thread, but from my experience with dealing with behaviour problems, it is virtually impossible to get advice via email/internet that will be specific to your situation. Get someone to come and see the dogs and how you deal with them. And very often things can be sorted with a few adjustment There are just too many variants to accurately give advice via the internet IMO.

 

And dominance theories can be a very emotive subject, and is often misinterpreted.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Sirius

[Tyla 3,179]

Good advice from everyone i hope but i think sirius makes a very valid point in that all you guys can go on is my description of the situation which is always going to be missing something. I will try and find someone experienced locally to meet the dogs and see for them for themselves. I will keep you informed

[Neal 1,866]

Good point Neal.

 

However, even within well ordered and stable packs there can arise a rogue element, a situation which a pack member finds intolerable, for whatever reason. In the wild, a pack member can leave if they find life intolerable, or a trouble maker might be driven out: our dogs can't organise their own lives in this way: we put them into situations and expect them to live by the rules we establish. This is fine most of the time, but occasionally a dog finds itself in a position which slowly becomes intolerable, for whatever reason. It is recognising this that owners often find difficult: the WHY something is happening.

 

Completely agree with you Skycat.

 

I have a similar situation at the moment where my middle kelpie, who's the most extreme one-man-dog(bitch) I've ever known, simply doesn't like my son. I tried to rehome her soon after he was born as, although not showing any signs of out and out aggression, she avoided him at all costs and my wife claimed to have heard a couple of growls. However, understandably, nobody wanted to rehome a six year old sensitive kelpie which chases rabbits and dislikes all other dogs and people (can't think why not ) so she's still with me but only comes indoors when my son's gone to bed.

 

On the plus side; she's complately besotted with me and her two kennel mates.

[Casso 1,261]

Ok, this could be a bit of a long explanation but any sensible advice would be appreciated.

 

Our pack consists of a 4yr old salgreyxbullgrey bitch, a 3.5yr old jtrxwhippet full male, 3yr old 16tts mongrel terrier dog, castrated, and a 10month old colliegreyxlurcher bitch pup. The issue is between the two males. They have all lived happily together, pretty much, until this week although i think the problem has been building for a while without us being aware.

 

The older bitch is dominant but in a totally non aggressive way, never fights but puts the others in place as and when required usually by physically dominating them during play. The pup is just a pup, bouncy and can play a bit hard but will back off if the others tell her off. The issue is between the two males.

 

The terrier has taken to attacking the jrtxwhippet, who has always been the dominant one, at any opportunity. Initially he did it if the other was being disciplined for any reason but in the last few days he has upped the ante by attacking him when he's asleep, proper malicious determined attacks. He seems to plan it and im struggling to see whats triggering it. It only happens while we are there, almost as if hes making a point in front of us. The jrtxwhip has always been the top dog in the past and has had issues with dog aggression mostly with other full males outside of our pack. We put alot of time and socialisation into sorting this out and it worked, maybe too well. He seems now to not be interested in fighting back, he will defend himself from the terrier when attacked but is certainly not trying to win the fight, more waiting for us to break it up. These attacks have suddenly increased recently and the pack is now in a constant state of tension.

 

I think its possible that since the new pup arrived, in october, somehow the terriers confidence has been building to the point that now he wants to take over top male position. He pretty much adopted the puppy from the beginning and is very protective of her with other dogs, which has started to be aggression. He has been disciplined for this and seem to have stopped it most of the time. These attacks on Parker seem to have nothing to do with the puppy though and no visible trigger. Why Parker is not putting him back in his place i have no idea as he has always done so before.

 

We tolerate no fighting among them and discipline has never been a major issue before, when this first happened we came down hard on the terrier and i assumed it was sorted but not so. At no point has he been at all human aggressive, its all aimed at Parker. I have tried punishing him and he is totally submissive to me but then does it again as soon as he gets the chance. I dont want to keep doing something that nots working and certainly dont want to break his spirit with ineffective physical punishment. Does anyone have any good advice or experiences?

 

Sorry its such an essay but it saves answering loads of questions later to explain the situation

 

i havent been a big fan of the dominance thinking for a while now, David Mech who first coined the phrase Alpha male and female back in the day,has through further research named the couple the breeding pair,

dogs, can pick up on our excitement and fear, and they can through their behaviour express our emotions,

i would be interested in who owns which dogs ,same person ,two persons2 dogs each?and how do these people feel about the mutts? ,and changes if any, may not even be dog related have gone on in the home,could the dog be expressing stress,??

i know, a lot of folk, wont agree with the concept and that s fine,,but there is too much behaviour going unexplained in the dominance theory to be an absolute truth,,best of luck

[amentalcat 3]

Just wondered, is the young bitch spayed?

I'm guessing not as she is still pretty young.

Maybe she is getting ready to come into season and this is making the dynamics of the group change. She would be going from a puppy to something worth 'fighting for'.

 

Its only an idea, but i know when my cocker came into season for the first time, both of my dogs (both castrated) were a bit grumbly with each other.

 

Best of luck with it mate.

 

Ali

Edited July 13, 2011 by amentalcat

[chook1 184]

Sorry Moll - have to disagree with you on the rolling and pinning,

if you watch dogs or even wolfs, non will ever roll and pin another dog, the submissive dog will roll

itself and the other dog will hold it by the neck, only time you will see it truly, is when one dog is intent on killing the other,

unfortunaly we are not dogs and if its done at the wrong time,could cause further problems with the dog you have done it to.

 

Doninance was debunked a long time ago - along with alpha etc,

if you watch a group of dogs interact with one another, you will find the lead dog changes to the different situation's

that happen, up untill last year i had 10 dogs living together - 2 castrated males, 8 females some spayed some not,

mostly they all got on together,we had the odd ocasional arguments between them, but nothing more scerious

except for the two males (brothers)if left in a room together they would have killed each other,

although they could pass each other without problems, all dogs were allowed to express themselves,

allowed to growel if one of the others came near if they had something, but that was as far as it went,

my oldest bitch was alowed to disapline the other dogs if she felt they needed it, and she was quite good at keeping the group in line,

she never needed to fight any of the others - one bark/snap and what ever she disaproved of stopped, most of the time she just needed to stand between them

she was given respect and she helped to create a peicefull group.

 

Personaly i would start with a vet check for both dogs,

then i would look at the situation - you have a 10 month old bitch

by any chance has she had her first season?

i cant remember which dog you said lived with the youngster - but if it is the agressor

is there any chance he could be defending her especaly if a season is emmenent,

or could the other bitch be coming in season.

personaly you need to get someone in to look at whats happening, as there not connected to the dogs

its always easer for someone else to see what could be going wrong.

[chook1 184]

Sorry Moll - have to disagree with you on the rolling and pinning,

if you watch dogs or even wolfs, non will ever roll and pin another dog, the submissive dog will roll

itself and the other dog will hold it by the neck, only time you will see it truly, is when one dog is intent on killing the other,

unfortunaly we are not dogs and if its done at the wrong time,could cause further problems with the dog you have done it to.

 

Doninance was debunked a long time ago - along with alpha etc,

if you watch a group of dogs interact with one another, you will find the lead dog changes to the different situation's

that happen, up untill last year i had 10 dogs living together - 2 castrated males, 8 females some spayed some not,

mostly they all got on together,we had the odd ocasional arguments between them, but nothing more scerious

except for the two males (brothers)if left in a room together they would have killed each other,

although they could pass each other without problems, all dogs were allowed to express themselves,

allowed to growel if one of the others came near if they had something, but that was as far as it went,

my oldest bitch was alowed to disapline the other dogs if she felt they needed it, and she was quite good at keeping the group in line,

she never needed to fight any of the others - one bark/snap and what ever she disaproved of stopped, most of the time she just needed to stand between them

she was given respect and she helped to create a peicefull group.

 

Just a couple of links on the whole alpha roll.

http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/proper-way-to-do-alpha-roll.html

http://www.loucastle.com/dominance.htm

 

Personaly i would start with a vet check for both dogs,

then i would look at the situation - you have a 10 month old bitch

by any chance has she had her first season?

i cant remember which dog you said lived with the youngster - but if it is the agressor

is there any chance he could be defending her especaly if a season is emmenent,

or could the other bitch be coming in season.

personaly you need to get someone in to look at whats happening, as there not connected to the dogs

its always easer for someone else to see what could be going wrong.

[Moll. 1,770]

Sorry Moll - have to disagree with you on the rolling and pinning,

if you watch dogs or even wolfs, non will ever roll and pin another dog, the submissive dog will roll

itself and the other dog will hold it by the neck, only time you will see it truly, is when one dog is intent on killing the other,

unfortunaly we are not dogs and if its done at the wrong time,could cause further problems with the dog you have done it to.

 

 

I never said it was anything to do with replicating a dog, i find it is more effective than hitting a dog in a situation when you need an instant quick effect. The shock of it has a greater effect than any beatings would. I don't believe the dogs think i am trying to kill them, but if they do, i am fine with that, it is much more preferable than a dead dog or a dog which has to be pts. I don't believe it causes them further problems, you have to know the full picture of someone's relationship with their dogs, how they interact at all times, to be able to judge their methods of training. Some types of training work for some people because of their relationships with their dogs, because of the individual dog, and the personality of the people training, it may not work for others

 

Personally i would never allow the situation you had with your dogs, allowing a pack that size to show aggression, but i have possibly had different experiences in life to yours, have had things happen that you have not. We all have to make decisions based on our own experiences. For 9 years i had a pack of dogs all living in harmony untill something suddenly went wrong.

[chook1 184]

See thats the thing - my dogs did not show agression,

they showed a warning, by suppressing a dogs natural instint

it can cause problems further down the line, insted of a dog growling as a warning

it will learn to just snap/bite or even just fight without warning,

although my dogs growl occasionaly at one another when it is nessacery(sp) to tell the other to back off

i have watched them lie on top of one another eating raw bones without problems, my two youngest bitchs will share a bowl together quite happly.

 

I have had the same - had two bitchs that grew up together for 8 years they was fine one day

then the next they was trying to kill one another, after that they could never be in the same room

together as they woud just fight.

Ive owned a dog/human agressive dog - he was hard work, but i got him to live quite happly with the other dogs we had at the time,

he did have one fight, when the doberman got loose from the allotment, one word of Oi and they stopped.

 

I agree with you one method of training may work for one dog - but not another,

but being heavy handed with a dog, there realy is no need for it, dogs dont do it to each other,

wolfs dont do it to each other, so why should we try and controal our dogs by useing it,

as that is what it is controal.

 

Ive just come back off holiday - there was 3 humans and 7 dogs all in a static caravan together,

2 of mine, 2 belonging to another and 3 belonging to another, all the dogs have never realy

been in a room with each other for more than a few hours, although they do walk with each other most sundays,

we had two incedents that week - nothing major and a quick oi and it was stopped, the terrier does have a thing

for my pup and try's to controal her when she is playing with one of the other dogs, by going for her, but a quick dont you dare

and she slinked off, by the end of the week the terrier was playing with the pup,

my dogs know that its down to me to sort things out

if something happens - they come stright to me and stand behind me if there is a problem, in the last 10-16 years ive always had

aound 8-10 dogs living/sleeping and eating together,(currently have 6) in that time we have never realy had more than a couple of spats,

which were sorted out as soon as they started - by finding out the underlieing cause to the problem.

[sussexpoacher 45]

Tyla, pups mum had first season at 10 1/2 months so yours shouldnt be far off, PMd you the number for the local wise one.

 

Keep us updated about your progress

P

[Moll. 1,770]

Yes i am controlling my dogs Chook, that is exactly what i want to do. These dogs are not pet dogs, they are powerfull working dogs, they kill things, they know how to kill things and most importantly LOVE killing things their whole existence if for the next time they can do it. And it will be over with in a very short time indeed, if they decided to fight.

[liam mc 18]

Hi Tyla, what is your feeding regime , if your having issues within your pack feed as a pack but with you in attendance and you deciding who feeds when and from what bowl interchanging throughout so to assert your total dominance on the pack , dont let feeding start till you decide then let the strongest one first but stop him allowing the dog hes trying to dominate feed from his bowl, by this your taking complete control and teaching your pack that theres no point fighting for dominance as your the one , same exercise can be carried out with toys and bones. Good luck

Edited July 14, 2011 by liam mc

[Casso 1,261]

i believe theres more to this debate than controlling dogs its how we see dogs, dogs are completely social by nature, if we expect dogs to act a certain way we will see that behaviour in our dogs actions ,likewise if you believe a dog is truly social you wont see dominance but active and reactive,is a dog acting dominant( active ) or reactive(submissive) , and like humans some of us are more dominant or submissive by nature, does that mean we're tying to control or take over anything ,by expressing ourselves a certain way in keeping with our personality,

on another point,some the most serious dogs ive come across with huge ability to cause damage to man or beast ,when worked and allowed to express their natural inclinations were actually the most grounded , putty in your hands type, they showed no fear and as such no aggression,,what im saying is dogs allowed to work and express drive actually become more social, whereas dogs kept as pets with unresolved inclinations actually become problem dogs with huge issues,

enjoying the different points of view expressed in mannerly fashion,