Dominance issues within my pack

[Tyla 3,179]

Ok, this could be a bit of a long explanation but any sensible advice would be appreciated.

 

Our pack consists of a 4yr old salgreyxbullgrey bitch, a 3.5yr old jtrxwhippet full male, 3yr old 16tts mongrel terrier dog, castrated, and a 10month old colliegreyxlurcher bitch pup. The issue is between the two males. They have all lived happily together, pretty much, until this week although i think the problem has been building for a while without us being aware.

 

The older bitch is dominant but in a totally non aggressive way, never fights but puts the others in place as and when required usually by physically dominating them during play. The pup is just a pup, bouncy and can play a bit hard but will back off if the others tell her off. The issue is between the two males.

 

The terrier has taken to attacking the jrtxwhippet, who has always been the dominant one, at any opportunity. Initially he did it if the other was being disciplined for any reason but in the last few days he has upped the ante by attacking him when he's asleep, proper malicious determined attacks. He seems to plan it and im struggling to see whats triggering it. It only happens while we are there, almost as if hes making a point in front of us. The jrtxwhip has always been the top dog in the past and has had issues with dog aggression mostly with other full males outside of our pack. We put alot of time and socialisation into sorting this out and it worked, maybe too well. He seems now to not be interested in fighting back, he will defend himself from the terrier when attacked but is certainly not trying to win the fight, more waiting for us to break it up. These attacks have suddenly increased recently and the pack is now in a constant state of tension.

 

I think its possible that since the new pup arrived, in october, somehow the terriers confidence has been building to the point that now he wants to take over top male position. He pretty much adopted the puppy from the beginning and is very protective of her with other dogs, which has started to be aggression. He has been disciplined for this and seem to have stopped it most of the time. These attacks on Parker seem to have nothing to do with the puppy though and no visible trigger. Why Parker is not putting him back in his place i have no idea as he has always done so before.

 

We tolerate no fighting among them and discipline has never been a major issue before, when this first happened we came down hard on the terrier and i assumed it was sorted but not so. At no point has he been at all human aggressive, its all aimed at Parker. I have tried punishing him and he is totally submissive to me but then does it again as soon as he gets the chance. I dont want to keep doing something that nots working and certainly dont want to break his spirit with ineffective physical punishment. Does anyone have any good advice or experiences?

 

Sorry its such an essay but it saves answering loads of questions later to explain the situation

Edited July 12, 2011 by Tyla

[Moll. 1,770]

I'll probably get some flack for this but when you say you come down hard when the dog is being aggressive, how hard do you mean?

If he were my dog, i would have him pinned to the floor by the skin of his neck, on top of him screaming in his face, so angry my eyes would be bulging, and spitting hell fire untill he screamed in submission I've found REAL anger like this, coupled with the fact the dog is restrained and cannot get away till you let it much more effective than a good hiding.

Don't get me wrong, i don't do this to all my dogs, i train them from an early age i am boss, i do the fighting, growling, biting, not them, they are not even allowed little rumbles in the back of the throat, you cant have even the slightest aggression not with a pack of dogs living together, hence my lot living with all kinds of animals.

If he really saw you as the dominant dog, he would not even think about attacking another in the pack

Do not give him an inch, come down very hard even if he gives a 'look' to the other dog, you will hate yourself for doing it, especially when he becomes shy of you for a while, but much better than any of the alternative which may happen if you don't stop him! Make him work for anything and everything...hand feed him small amounts of his dinner at a time, and he don't get it till he does whatever you ask him to do ( sit, stay etc). All toys are removed, he only gets to play when you play. Sit, lie, whatever when you put his lead on....them type of things.

 

I had the dippiest, softest terrier in the world, she was a babe, never aggressive, would give up prey to other dogs, was an absolute joy to have around the place, so i had never needed to do any dominance training with her. Then at 6yrs of age she decided to mature, she started to hunt properly, and started to challenge the other more dominant terrier, had a few fights, tried letting them sort it out themselves... didn't work, tried muscling in, thought that had worked. And like you i had a lurcher bitch who was the matriarch of the pack. One day came home to find my lovely little dippy terrier dead on the floor. From what i can gather for some reason she had started to fight with the more dominant terrier, and by the look of things it had gone on for a while. Then the lurcher bitch decided to intervene and ended the fight.

 

If i only knew then what i know now.

[socks 32,253]

spot on moll there can only ever be one pack leader and that has to be YOU ... i have a little 17 week old russel pup that is learning the hard way that i am the boss but day by day she is learning that she cant take the other dogs bones she cant growl when i rub her face when she is eating she cant run ahead to her feeding place before me etc etc etc .... 1 dog 3 dogs or 20 dogs there can ever only be 1 pack leader and that has to be you the rest have to be submissive and not fight amongst each other ............

[iworkwhippets 12,543]

I'll probably get some flack for this but when you say you come down hard when the dog is being aggressive, how hard do you mean?

If he were my dog, i would have him pinned to the floor by the skin of his neck, on top of him screaming in his face, so angry my eyes would be bulging, and spitting hell fire untill he screamed in submission I've found REAL anger like this, coupled with the fact the dog is restrained and cannot get away till you let it much more effective than a good hiding.

Don't get me wrong, i don't do this to all my dogs, i train them from an early age i am boss, i do the fighting, growling, biting, not them, they are not even allowed little rumbles in the back of the throat, you cant have even the slightest aggression not with a pack of dogs living together, hence my lot living with all kinds of animals.

If he really saw you as the dominant dog, he would not even think about attacking another in the pack

Do not give him an inch, come down very hard even if he gives a 'look' to the other dog, you will hate yourself for doing it, especially when he becomes shy of you for a while, but much better than any of the alternative which may happen if you don't stop him! Make him work for anything and everything...hand feed him small amounts of his dinner at a time, and he don't get it till he does whatever you ask him to do ( sit, stay etc). All toys are removed, he only gets to play when you play. Sit, lie, whatever when you put his lead on....them type of things.

 

I had the dippiest, softest terrier in the world, she was a babe, never aggressive, would give up prey to other dogs, was an absolute joy to have around the place, so i had never needed to do any dominance training with her. Then at 6yrs of age she decided to mature, she started to hunt properly, and started to challenge the other more dominant terrier, had a few fights, tried letting them sort it out themselves... didn't work, tried muscling in, thought that had worked. And like you i had a lurcher bitch who was the matriarch of the pack. One day came home to find my lovely little dippy terrier dead on the floor. From what i can gather for some reason she had started to fight with the more dominant terrier, and by the look of things it had gone on for a while. Then the lurcher bitch decided to intervene and ended the fight.

 

If i only knew then what i know now.

Good post, thats the way to do it

[Tyla 3,179]

I agree with every thing you've both said. When i say come down hard i mean exactly what Moll said, scruffed, pinned down in a submissive position and thoroughly told off. He has on occassion got a slap but i dont think its as effective. These dogs have lived together all their lives and i've always been proud of the way they behave with each other and, for the most part, with other dogs. They work together all the time and as part of an extended pack without any problems. I dont know, apart from the introduction of the pup, what has changed or what to do to change it back.

 

The only other thing i can think of is that, for various reasons, they have been worked far less over this summer than previously. Usually we would have a days bushing once a week throughout the year but this summer a new business and a lack of rabbits locally has pretty much put paid to that. Having said that, they get two good walks a day and work cover etc every chance they get. Could he be frustrated and re directing his energy?

[socks 32,253]

another thought ... is parker ailing with something ??? and does the terrier know and you havnt spotted it ??? a dog waiting to take over will jump on the chance if what he sees as the dominant dog is under the weather ... BUT it still comes down to the fact that the terrier is seeing parker as his challenge ie top dog and not you ..............

[leegreen 2,170]

BUT it still comes down to the fact that the terrier is seeing parker as his challenge ie top dog and not you ..............

 

This is the way I see it. I think you have let the dogs create a pack amongst them selves and that you are not fully part of it.

I don't know how you are with your dogs, you sound ok. But nothing and I mean nothing goes on in my pack without my say so and that is the way it must be for total harmony.

You need to take control and I mean break that dog and I mean the same treatment the terrier wants to give Parker. If there is any dominance test it should be you they should be testing not each other, it's not there place.

 

Are they kenneled together?

[Tyla 3,179]

I suppose Parker could be but its nothing that i can see, im at a bit of a loss whats causing it hence the post. Ollie, the terrier, is and always has been totally submissive with me almost too much so at times which is why i dont want to keep bollocking him. He is a violent little hooligan with a very sensitive side if that makes sense?

 

Another thing that is probably relevent is that he can get himself into a kind of frenzy. He used to do it with the ferrets after he'd been broken to them where he stares at them shaking and whining under his breath, its when he desperately wants to do something but knows he cant ie; kill the ferrets, and is stopping himself. He can get into the same state when ratting when he has a rat just out of reach that cant be dug to, in foundations etc. If he stays in that state eventually he loses control and does whatever it is that he's been wanting to do. This can be managed as if you distract him, run him through a load of commands or whatever, it kind of breaks the spell and he comes back to himself. He did this today staring and focusing on Parker, i snapped him out of it straight away but its the first time hes focused like that on another dog.

 

When i write this i realize he sounds out of control but up to now he has caused no hierachy problems. There is also a correlation between more success work wise and his growing confidence and now this aggression

[Tyla 3,179]

BUT it still comes down to the fact that the terrier is seeing parker as his challenge ie top dog and not you ..............

 

This is the way I see it. I think you have let the dogs create a pack amongst them selves and that you are not fully part of it.

I don't know how you are with your dogs, you sound ok. But nothing and I mean nothing goes on in my pack without my say so and that is the way it must be for total harmony.

You need to take control and I mean break that dog and I mean the same treatment the terrier wants to give Parker. If there is any dominance test it should be you they should be testing not each other, it's not there place.

 

Are they kenneled together?

 

So it would seem. I think maybe i have let things slide a bit without realising. In answer to your question no, they are are kenneled seperately. Parker is with the pup and Ollie with the older bitch.

[leegreen 2,170]

BUT it still comes down to the fact that the terrier is seeing parker as his challenge ie top dog and not you ..............

 

This is the way I see it. I think you have let the dogs create a pack amongst them selves and that you are not fully part of it.

I don't know how you are with your dogs, you sound ok. But nothing and I mean nothing goes on in my pack without my say so and that is the way it must be for total harmony.

You need to take control and I mean break that dog and I mean the same treatment the terrier wants to give Parker. If there is any dominance test it should be you they should be testing not each other, it's not there place.

 

Are they kenneled together?

 

So it would seem. I think maybe i have let things slide a bit without realising. In answer to your question no, they are are kenneled seperately. Parker is with the pup and Ollie with the older bitch.

Could be. It's hard to tell without being there. I think you may have to lay down the law a bit until you get it under control. It's harder with dogs than bitches, but one of yours is castrated which should make it easier and the kennel thing, I asked just so nothing goes on without you being there.

Remember don't give them an inch, be there at feeding times, play time and keep them close out in the field.

Unrest in the pack is a nightmare, keep us posted.

[Moll. 1,770]

It is a very hard thing to resolve once it has happened Tyla, there does not need to have been a trigger as such, sometime some dogs just take a while to find their feet so to speak. Terriers can swine's for holding grudges.

Dominance in packs is not always as cut and dried as people like to think, ie one pack leader and the rest are subservient. While you are overall pack leader there will also be a 2nd in command, a dominat bitch etc.

[skycat 6,173]

I have a black terrier bitch which would be a total nightmare in the wrong hands. She is a full on, kill anything sort of dog. But she's not ultra dominant, just psychopathic in the true sense of the word. I think quite a lot of terriers are like this. They have been bred for years and years to enjoy killing things as big as themselves, to be impervious to pain, and I really believe that they have that 'beserker' gene within them, like the Vikings. They truly cannot help themselves: or can they?

 

Beetle has now got to the stage, at 5 years old, where she can control herself, but she has to 'kill' something if she's not to attack another dog. So she kills her blanket in the kennel: needless to say she goes through a lot of blankets :laugh: She controls her desire to kill other dogs because she is submissive to me, and I know that she would be a lot happier if she was killing foxes on a daily basis: she really needs to be doing that. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to be able to let her do that.

 

I watch her inner struggle every day, but every day it becomes easier for her. It's been a fascinating process, but sad in a way as well, because she is having to overcome her inbred nature, the thing that makes black dogs what they are. I have now got to the stage where she can be allowed in the communal terrier run during the day whilst I'm there, but I would never go out and leave her loose with any other dog: ever.

 

BUT there are dogs who I'd never let her loose with ever: small puppies: she would kill them if they annoyed her, and although I'm sure she would take some pushing nowadays, once that switch had been flipped, she'd be in full on killing mode, or the old terrier bitch, who is pretty senile: I'm sure Beetle sees her as something which needs to be taken off the earth. I can walk them together, and she ignores the old thing, but once back in the yard, something nasty happens in Beetle's head. Needless to say they are kennelled out of sight completely from each other.

 

It sounds to me as though you have two problems: one is the fact that your terrier IS that type of terrier, and the other is that he has risen in status, as you say. I wouldn't even dream of ever letting the two dogs loose together, at all, under any circumstances: its just not fair on the one that is getting attacked, and like Moll, if all the dogs are loose together, it might well be a lurcher that intervenes, finally and terminally.

 

In fact, I would get rid of one, whichever one you like least: its no fun having to be constantly on guard, on the alert, and worrying about possible fights. Owning and working dogs should be fun, pleasurable, and if you have a rotten apple in the barrel, it will taint the whole enjoyment you should be experiencing from working and owning your dogs.

 

Maybe I'm harder than some, but I couldn't like a dog which is truly a thorn in anyone's side, and I won't tolerate a bully in my pack. Beetle has learned this, but she's never attacked a dog for no reason. The only time she has done so is if she and the other terriers were loose just before going out on exercise or work, and getting all wound up: then it was a barging from another dog which set her off. Now she runs back into her kennel and kills her bedding instead. Clever dog that she is.

 

But it sounds like your dog has serious issues with the other: and as the status quo of the pack has been changed by introducing the pup, can you really see things going back to how they were before? If you don't think that the problem can be resolved then it would be fairer on all concerned to rehome one of them.

 

I would think long and hard about whether you think that your other dog should put up with living with those sort of attacks, and it could change him as well: the worm sometimes turns with violent consequences.

 

Just another question: you said that the terrier has attacked the other dog when he is asleep? If they are kennelled separately, how can this happen? Or are the dogs all loose together when you are there? And if this is the case, then why, after the first attack, do you continue to let them loose together? Sorry if I've misunderstood.

[Tyla 3,179]

i will keep you all posted. i have to admit i find it hard to believe that he doesnt see me as boss, they are all very submissive to both me and my wife. Ollie just seems determined to rise up a notch in the pecking order and, for whatever reason, Parker isnt making much effort to keep his end up.

[leegreen 2,170]

It is a very hard thing to resolve once it has happened Tyla.

Very true but no always impossible. Skycat is right about the "bad apple" and maybe this may be the answer, but Tyla wants to try an sort it and if you are careful and on it disasters can be avoided.

[skycat 6,173]

Tyla: there shouldn't even be a pecking order as such: if you are the leader, then the other dogs should get on together with no problem. Isn't there someone well experienced in behavioural issues and packs who could pay you a visit to observe exactly what is happening. Sometimes it takes an outside eye to see what is actually going on: a case of being too close to see it yourself. Not criticizing your judgement, but I know that I benefited enormously when a friend came down for a visit: that friend was Jim Greenwood, who sorts out dog problems for a living. I didn't have problems as such, but he pointed out one or two training issues which I was too close to recognise myself.