Hawke Side Winder Tactical and AAS410 combination?

[gollum 1]

Hi Folks,

I,m thinking of buying a side focus scope and had a good look at the Hawke side winder tactical. It seems well built and I had no problems with my current hawke 3-9x50 so I am tempted to make the jump but a couple of things are niggling.

 

Can I expect to get tight accurate rangefinding using a side winder?

When I say accurate I mean in particular the 20 - 50 yard range and to within a yard or 2 accuracy. The scope body graduation marks jump enormously from 30 yards to 50 yards....though if I add a larger wheel, presumably this can be improved. But I guess the core of the question is whats the margin of error at that kind of range? Is it even possible to tell the difference focusing at 35 to 40 yards? Is it eyesight dependant (mines ok, no glasses required) or can anyone suggest a rule of thumb based upon personal experience?

 

The other big point is where to source a bigger side wheel and whether it causes a problem with the magazine on the S410? Rowan are only showing wheels for nikkon stirlings and I havent found any other to fit this scope. Any suggestions or advice on this subject much appreciated.

 

HH all.

 

G.

[Buster321c 1,010]

HI Gollum , the Hawke scopes you speak of are ( IMO ) very good , clear , and well made. I personally like hawke , especially as they have good light gathering capabilities . You can expect to use it well for rangefinding , as long as you know what your doing . As far as a wheel , look on e bay , jsramsbottom , bbs , the usual suspects . Do you shoot 177 or 22 ? have a play with chairgun ,and once you know your trajectory you can get the scope set up . To be honest its all a bit beyond me ive , mapped my scope so i know where i am , and its same from 13 -35 yds ( 177 ) bit of hold over or under here and there and im generally on the money . Maybe have a look on `shooting the breeze` as the FT guys make it look like a science Have a go on the site below , ATB Buster

 

 

 

http://www.briansamson.info/anstonbbs.co.uk/samtec/rangetest/rangetest1.html

 

Once you`ve got the hang of it , have a go at bracketing :blink:

Edited May 12, 2011 by Buster321c

[pianoman 3,587]

The best, surest thing you can do is mark out a range area with a tape measure in metres or yards (personally, I prefer metres) and focus your scope on these and mark the precise focused range. You'll see imediately, just how far or not your scope is within error.

 

Your starting point should be as close to where your scope's turrets lie, as this is where all adjustments are made. Then measure out 5-10-15-20-25-30-35-40-45-50 metres, or further still and note the focused ranges.

 

Between 20-25-35 and 40-50 metres and further on, you should learn to read your sightpicture by the degree of blurred detail occuring at specific ranges. How picture decay looks in the scope can tell you very quickly how far you are away from your target. You must learn to read the ground details and features down to stones, pebbles, clumps of grass, weeds etc as little indicators as to how far away your target is showing itself.

 

Just takes practice.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[Buster321c 1,010]

Rangefinding in HFT

 

Rangefinding in HFT is a huge subject so I won't go into great detail since if you're new to the sport I wouldn't want to scare you off..(So I just lied there is quite a lot of detail in this post )

 

 

For bracketing, I can tell you that on a standard knockover target (the most common target used in HFT and FT) the distance from the top of the hinge plate to the centre of the killzone is 110mm (except a 15mm Squirrel target which is about 112mm). You can also take measurements of each different target type and produce a range card from that.

 

I have more than a little bit of experience of bracketing I've got to say..

 

The difficulties with bracketing are that it's easy to miscount the number of increments - especially when you're in the middle of a competition when the pressure is on. It's also not always easy to keep the rifle perfectly still while taking a measurement and a difference of even 0.2 of a mildot is enough to put you waaaay off on range.

 

Here's a test to help illustrate some of the difficulties you'll face when trying to bracket a target.

 

http://www.samtec.hostinguk.com/rangetest/rangetest1.html (Your browser will need to support FLASH in order for this test to work)

 

 

Measurements are taken from the Top of the hinge plate to the centre of the killzone - there's a range card next to each example for you to read off the range from - see how accurate you and perhaps post the difficulties you find by doing this test and what method you used to overcome those difficulties.

 

Hint - the hinge plate is about an inch higher than the baseplate.. it's clear to see on some targets, not so clear on others, but these are real photo's of targets from a real course - so this should help to illustrate that bracketing isn't as simple as it seems.

 

But.... this isn't a particularly reliable method for lots of reasons - firstly, taking precise measurements in mildots isn't easy. It's extremely easy to make a mistake on your reading which will put you miles off on distance. Secondly, this is a well known method by course designers who will deliberately throw in a curve ball target to really mess with your head.

 

It can be a useful method if used as a last resort, but shouldn't be used as a primary method of range finding.

 

Something that the test doesn't illustrate and it's probably the biggest cause of inaccuracies is this...

 

The human eye/brain can concentrate on one thing at a time (or maybe that's just me?) so for example you might decide to use the thick part of the bottom post of your ret as the starting point for your measurements.. you concentrate on aligning the post with the top of the hinge then start looking up the ret to take a measurement. As you do this you'll find that you naturally start lifting your rifle up as well - giving you an incorrect measurement. You really need to be able to concentrate on both the start point and the end point at the same time and make sure your gun is perfectly still throughout. It's alot easier to do with a mouse on a flash demonstration than it is in real life on a course.

 

You only have to be out by a fraction of a mildot and you're far enough out on the range to miss the kill.

It's even worse trying to use this method in SFT out to 55 yards.. fortunately there's a more reliable method for SFT - if you're not sure how far the target is, it's probably 55 yards...

 

There are a number of methods however... including the good ole Mk1 eyeball (which also shouldn't be totally relied on either because course setters will also place targets to fool those that range by eye).

 

I'll briefly list some of the various methods...

 

1. Learn the rules of course setting - if you see a 25mm killzone, knowing the rules will tell you that it cannot be any further than 35 yards for example. Similarly 15mm kills will be between 13yards and 25 yards.

 

2. Learn from previous targets - once you've shot a target and seen where your pellet landed, that should give you a very good clue as to the exact distance to that target. You can then use that target as a reference for other targets on the course. If a target was 40 yards on a large tree for example and the next lane has a target that's a bit further than the tree then you'll know it's over 40 yards etc.

 

3. Look for reference points on the course - such as targets placed on or near fencing with equally spaced posts (as most are). You can't pace the distance to a target but you can pace the distance between two fence posts behind the firing line and then multiply that by the number of posts between the line and the target - there are other examples of this which I won't go into, but you get the idea - keep your brain engaged and look for clues and reference points.

 

4. Bracketting - you can bracket killzones, hinge to centre of kill, full faceplates, partial faceplates etc etc.. this can be a handy method as a last resort or to double check the range, but use it sparingly and don't trust it if a more reliable method is available.

 

5. Ranging by eye (be aware that targets in a tunnel of trees will look further away, targets where there's dead ground between the target and the line will also look further away).. There are lots of ways that rangefinding by eye can be fooled, experience will help you to learn when this is likely to happen.

 

You can practice this method while walking down the street etc.. try to judge the distance to a lamp post for example and then pace it out to see if you were right or wrong etc.. try not to do this in a crowded area though or you'll get some strange looks

 

6. Rangefinding by parallax - you will notice that at certain ranges the image of the target and the crosshairs will both be in very sharp focus.The difference between pretty clear and crystal clear is what you will be able to use to help with rangefinding.You can practice this by first concentrating on the traget then on the crosshairs.. if you notice that your eyes have to re-focus when switching between the target and crosshairs then you'll learn how to tell the difference between sharp focus and blurred focus. It does take practice, but this is the most reliable method of rangefinding in HFT (and it's the method used to rangefind in FT as well).

 

Another way you can use this method is - suppose your scope is in sharp focus at 23 yards and you are able to get that distance about right within a couple of yards.. you can then use that focus range to look around for things on the course such as trees etc that are at exactly 23 yards - this will give you a good reference point that can then be used to judge the distance to the target.

 

Something else for you to consider... You don't have to hit the target in the centre of the killzone for it to go down, so if you're wrong by a few yards it doesn't matter.. instead of trying to come up with a single distance for a target try to come up with a range of ranges so to speak... for example you might think that a target is between 30 and 37 yards... have a look at your aimpoint for 30 and your aimpoint for 37... can you get both aimpoints inside the kill? - if so hedge your bets and shoot the target for 33.5 yards.

 

If you come to a target, you've gone through all of the range estimation techniques and decided on the most likely range of that target but when you look through your scope you notice that the vast majority of misses on the face plate are all hitting low, then you may need to make an allowance to your holdover.Being able to identify the likely reason will help you with this.

If one of the range estimation techniques would give a range much closer thanyour own estimated range, then it's reasonable to assume that the people that missed the target low did so because they fell into the trap of the course designer.

It may also mean that there is some wind effect that is causing shots to go low on this particular target.

 

There are a few additional methods I haven't mentioned,but I'm not giving away all of my little secrets.

 

It's still true however that the most reliable method of rangefinding is to use the Parallax trick - it takes some practice but it's the only method that course designers can't set traps for - it's also the method I used to use when I was out hunting. If Mr Bunny was blurred in my scope, I knew I needed to get a bit closer before taking my shot. Now I use a Laser Range Finder when I'm out hunting which makes life a lot easier.

 

Borrowed from a mate

Edited May 12, 2011 by Buster321c

[gollum 1]

Phew, that's a lot to digest. Many thanks guys, much obliged.

 

I have been using a laser for the last year and despite it being really useful it isnt entirely reliable. The problem I have is that sometimes the laser reads off the ground in front or behind the target. The result being incorrect holdover calculations and missed rabbits that should have been straight forward shots. My range estimation (unaided) is poor so I really need the help of either a laser or possibly side focusing scope. I have mapped out my gun using targets at 5 yard intervals and know the curve well, but without distance certainty I am unwilling to take shots that may result in less than a clean kill.

 

So the question should have said, is a side focusing scope as accurate as a laser when used correctly. My theory is that: as you are focusing on the target there is no ambiguity about whether the range is accurately estimated. ie. you cant miss the target with the scope but you can with a laser!

 

What I really hope to find out is whether or not a side focusing scope is a dependable and accurate method of estimating range and if the larger wheel for this model exists and if it does are there problems with the magazine on an s410.

 

Have looked for a wheel at, deben, jsramsbottom, rowan and googled with no success.

 

HH all.

 

G.

[darren watson 14]

i think this should get pinned.

[markha 99]

As for the scope, you can read my review of it Here

 

Having a bit of reflection about this scope, and the reasons for me selling it; For hunting it was a heavy set up on an AA S410 when on walk about, for target work It was in its realm, either using mildots or when dialling in the clicks for range. The guy I sold it to in Ireland is a regular HFT competitor and he emailed me not so long ago to say how great he was finding the scope.

Cheers

Mark

 

 

Edit: I used the supplied 2" sidewheel with mine and anything bigger would make taking the magazine out a little bit tricky, to be honest the supplied larger wheel is more than enough for the x14 mag I had, there was plenty of room to add extra range markers.

 

I basically masked off the side wheel and ran a line of Tipex paint round it, then spent a few hours at the range marking all the different ranges on the side wheel in Pen & making a small scratch in the tipex for the line mark, The scopes also come with an extra pointer.

[gollum 1]

As for the scope, you can read my review of it Here

 

Having a bit of reflection about this scope, and the reasons for me selling it; For hunting it was a heavy set up on an AA S410 when on walk about, for target work It was in its realm, either using mildots or when dialling in the clicks for range. The guy I sold it to in Ireland is a regular HFT competitor and he emailed me not so long ago to say how great he was finding the scope.

Cheers

Mark

 

 

Edit: I used the supplied 2" sidewheel with mine and anything bigger would make taking the magazine out a little bit tricky, to be honest the supplied larger wheel is more than enough for the x14 mag I had, there was plenty of room to add extra range markers.

 

I basically masked off the side wheel and ran a line of Tipex paint round it, then spent a few hours at the range marking all the different ranges on the side wheel in Pen & making a small scratch in the tipex for the line mark, The scopes also come with an extra pointer.

 

Thanks that has pretty much got me sold 1 last question, would you say the image is as bright on this scope is as a Hawke sport HD 3-9 x 50? I am told the bigger the front the more light can get in and the better the image in low light. That said, I am also told the tactical has superior optics which may cancel out the smaller front end...

 

Finally, did you mean that the 4" wheel was too big for use with an S410? "to be honest the supplied larger wheel is more than enough for the x14 mag I had" .

 

Many thanks for the info.

 

G.

[markha 99]

I can't comment on light transmission compared to the 3-9x50 HD as I havent had one, what I can say is the optics are as bright as my £200 Bushnell 3x9x40 which is very good glass. So to have a scope with more mag and more lenses in it and still be as clear as a lower powered scope is going some.

I used to lamp with it on its lowest zoom setting and it was OK.

 

Oh and the supplied sidewheel is 2" and has more than enough room to mark all ranges on it, if you went any bigger you would not be able to get the magazine out without going to much higher mounts.