Bit of advice

[Massey 0]

Hi, need a bit of advice here, I have two shoguns on my ticket, If i take my mate ( who is over 18 yrs old) out with me and we are on ground that we have permission for, am i allowed to let him use the second shotgun when under my supervision, he doesnt have a license himself, any advice would be great, Thanks.

 

Massey.

[The_Oakster 2]

Hi, need a bit of advice here, I have two shoguns on my ticket, If i take my mate ( who is over 18 yrs old) out with me and we are on ground that we have permission for, am i allowed to let him use the second shotgun when under my supervision, he doesnt have a license himself, any advice would be great, Thanks.

 

Massey.

 

 

Yes as long as he is with you at all times and doesn't wander off, and as long as he's not banned from using shotguns

[Massey 0]

Ok, thanks,Na he isnt banned, he just never applied for his own license as he just goes the odd day for a shot with me, I've only ever taken 1 weapon though.

[HUnter_zero 58]

Hi, need a bit of advice here, I have two shoguns on my ticket, If i take my mate ( who is over 18 yrs old) out with me and we are on ground that we have permission for, am i allowed to let him use the second shotgun Massey.

 

 

NO! he may only use the landowners shotgun, however this is notthe case with firearms, where he would be able to use a firearm with your supervision.

 

John

[The_Oakster 2]

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

 

Shot guns

 

6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence. The presence of the occupier is normally taken to mean within sight and earshot of the individual borrowing the firearm. The term “occupier†is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier†in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’

 

Is this not the case anymore then?

[The_Oakster 2]

This is taken from Cambridgeshire Police current FAQ:

 

Can I try shooting if I don’t hold a certificate?

Under certain circumstances you can shoot without holding a firearms or shotgun certificate, these include:

 

1. At Clay Shoots and Registered Firearms Dealers. The shoot or dealer must hold a Section 11 (6) Exemption notice issued by the police.

 

2. At “open days†held by approved rifle and muzzle-loading clubs as a non-member, using club weapons on a limited number of days throughout the year. Membership is usually required to shoot at these clubs at other times.

 

3. You may shoot shotguns or rifles when accompanied by a certificate-holding landowner or their agent, such as a gamekeeper/stalker, on the owners land, using their weapons in accordance with the restrictions on their certificate for that weapon.

 

You may not borrow another person’s gun if they do not own/occupy the land you propose to shoot on. An occupier could include the farming tenant or the holder of the shooting rights.

[The_Oakster 2]

For clarity's sake, the first post quoting the EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE comes from Chapter 6 of the FIREARMS LAW, GUIDANCE TO THE POLICE 2002 which is the current guidance to ALL police forces in England. This can be downloaded on the internet from loads of places.

 

I would argue that if its in there then its legal. There have been no amendments to this particular section since its publication either so it still stands.

[scarecrow243 24]

i have took many guys out useing my guns and never had any problem when police arrived as long as the person is not banned from holding or being near firearms then you are ok

[HUnter_zero 58]

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

 

Shot guns

 

6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence. The presence of the occupier is normally taken to mean within sight and earshot of the individual borrowing the firearm. The term “occupier” is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’

 

Is this not the case anymore then?

 

Why not quote the whole thing?

 

Home Office

FIREARMS LAW

GUIDANCE TO THE POLICE

2002

 

 

Chapter 6

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

Shot guns

6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows

an individual, without holding a shot gun

certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the

occupier of private premises and use it on

those premises in the occupier’s presence.The presence of the occupier is normally

taken to mean within sight and earshot of the

individual borrowing the firearm.

 

The term

“occupier” is not defined in the Firearms

Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning.

However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report

recommended that the provisions of section

27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’.

 

In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition. On some occasions

though, where the status of a certificate

holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the

chief officer may need to consider seeking

the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides

that “premises” shall include any land. The

borrower may be of any age but an offence

may be committed under section 22(3) if a

minor under the age of 15 is not supervised

by a person over 21 years of age.

 

6.15 Similarly, section 11(6) of the 1968 Act

allows an individual, without holding a shot

gun certificate, to use a shot gun at a time

and place approved for shooting at artificial

targets by the chief officer of police for the

area in which that place is situated. As the

approval of such time and place is prescribed

by law and there may be duty of care issues

involved, chief officers may wish not only

to satisfy themselves that such events are

properly conducted and supervised, but also

to establish that there are no public safety

issues involved. When an exemption is

granted, the chief officer should advise

the organiser that they are responsible for

ensuring, so far as is practicable, that

adequate precautions are taken for the safety

of the participants and any spectators. Shoots

at which participants hold certificates do not

require an exemption under section 11(6).

Organisers operating in conjunction with

business, such as corporate entertainment,

will have additional responsibilities under

the Health and Safety at Work Act.

 

 

Borrowed rifles on private premises

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate. These may include a

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,

territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the

1968 Act defines “premises” as including any

land. The effect of the provision is to allow

a person visiting a private estate to borrow

and use a rifle without a certificate. The

exemption does not extend to persons under

the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

There is no notification required on the

loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically

identified as such on a “keeper’s” or

“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term

“in the presence of” is not defined in law

but is generally interpreted as being within

sight and earshot.

6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides

for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance

with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to

purchase or acquire ammunition for use in

the rifle, and to have it in their possession

during the period for which the rifle is

borrowed, without holding a certificate. The

borrower’s possession of the ammunition

must comply with the conditions on the

certificate of the person in whose presence

they are and the amount of ammunition

borrowed must not exceed that which the

certificate holder is authorised to have in

their possession at that time. It should be

noted that the borrower may only take

possession of the ammunition during the

period of the loan of the rifle at which time

they will be in the presence of the certificate

holder. If the persons selling or handing

over the ammunition are not certificate

holders, it may be necessary for them to

see the certificate to satisfy themselves that

the terms of this section have been met and

that the amount of ammunition the borrower

wishes to acquire is no greater than that

which the certificate holder is authorised

to possess. However, the details of the

transaction need not be recorded on

the certificate.

 

The bottom line is that "having permission" is not, no where near the same as owning the shooting rights. If the plod wanted to be funny, then they would invoke the firearms act, quote from fair game " It is an offence to POSSESS, purchase or ACQUIRE (which means borrow) a shotgun without holding a valid shotgun certificate (section 2 (1))".

I personally wouldn't risk my SGC & FAC on the fact that the firearms act has no definition of "occupier of private premises" especially in these very anti-gun orientated PC days.

 

John

Edited April 8, 2011 by HUnter_zero

[The_Oakster 2]

I didnt quote it all because the rest doesnt change anything... The bit you have highlighted just adds exactly what it says but the Police seek counsel in almost everything they do, even if the law is clear because that's what happens. That part adds no weight to your argument.

 

As for 'if the plod wanted to be funny' bit then they couldn't do what you say as that offence has not been committed! It hasnt been committed because you are EXEMPT FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE as stated in the next part of the legislation Believe me, there are far more ways of them 'being funny' in these circumstances just not in that particular way.

 

I stand by my original post. He can take his friend with him, as long as he is a valid SGC holder with the permission to shoot the land and his friend isn't banned from shooting.

[HUnter_zero 58]

I stand by my original post. He can take his friend with him, as long as he is a valid SGC holder with the permission to shoot the land and his friend isn't banned from shooting.

 

And I presume, you would also openly state on a public forum, that *if* the original poster was to lose his SGC due to following your advice, you would be happy to reimburse 100% of his legal costs when he was trying to recover his SGC?

 

There are far to many people who think (incorrectly) that because *they* have been give permission to shoot over land, it mean they can take a mate shooting.

The high lighted bit " acting as an occupier " brings this in to line. Just because you have been told *you* can shoot, does not mean your buddies can shoot and simple "shooting permission" is a world apart from owning any rights on an area of land. I own and lease shooting rights over a few farms, I can give you permission to go and stalk deer, right now if I so wished and it would be 100% legal but unless you either own or lease shooting rights over your "permissions" you can not give me permission to shoot. The firearms act is also clear " It is an offence to POSSESS, purchase or ACQUIRE (which means borrow) a shotgun without holding a valid shotgun certificate (section 2 (1)) ", approved clay clubs aside of course. I would be happy to agree with you, if you can show me any part of the firearms act that states it's legal for me to "lend" another person my shotgun. I can of course show such a statement with regards to firearms.

 

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle.

 

You will notice no such sub-clause exists with regards to shotguns, why is that? Well because it's illegal to lend someone your shotgun if your not the landowner or owner of the shooting rights.

 

John

Edited April 8, 2011 by HUnter_zero

[dave1372 83]

,,,,,,,Matt Hooks please step in

[scarecrow243 24]

Hi Massey to save all the crap just phone your firearms office and ask them thats what i did, they will ask if the land owner has said its ok for your mate to shoot

[The_Oakster 2]

I agree that his 'mate' would have to have permission to shoot too but other than that I think you are wrong.

 

The guidance clearly states that a person with ANY right to shoot can be the occupier. Any one with permission has the right to shoot. Therefore any permission causes you to be the occupier. This is what I was taught and this is the advice i give when contacted or during my visits for shotgun enquiries.

 

What is the difference between 6.14 and 6.16 that you are trying to point out? They read the same to me and the argument would still revolve around the word occupier. Unless you mean the word servant which could start a whole new argument about the legal definition of servant. Is it a directly paid worker or sub contracted hired hand or is it someone carrying out pest control on the request of the landowner...

 

This will go on forever. You believe what you want. But all it boils down to is your interpretation of the law, I do it all the time in my occupation and given the scenario presented by Massey or scarecrow243 I'd wish them good shooting and walk on everytime.

[HUnter_zero 58]

I agree that his 'mate' would have to have permission to shoot too but other than that I think you are wrong.

 

This will go on forever.

 

The whole debate has been across the Internet for years, with many ill informed views being taken as fact. The BASC has published the following with regards to using shotguns with no certificate:

 

BORROWING SHOTGUNS

Note: The law has recently changed due to “The Firearms (Amendment) Regulations 2010†–

this document has been amended to incorporate the age changes given by the regulations.

Sections 11(5) and 11(6) -Firearms Act 1968 allow non-certificate holders to shoot

shotguns in the following circumstances ONLY:

a) when using the occupier’s gun, on the occupier’s private land and in his/her

presence. (NEW – Under Section 11(5) only, non certificate holders aged less than 18

years but are 15 years or older, may now only be lent a shotgun in these circumstances

by a person aged 18 years or older. Under 15’s must always be supervised by a 21 year

old or over).

or

when at a police approved clay shoot (Section 11(6))

 

The Home Office publication: “Firearms Law, Guidance to the Police 2002†provides guidance

relating to a) above in Section 6.14. It says;

“ Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to

borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the

occupier’s presence. The presence of the occupier is normally taken to mean within sight and

earshot of the individual borrowing the firearm. The term “occupier†is not defined in the

Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the

Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier†in relation to any

land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting,

fishing or taking game or fish’. In the absence of any firm definition for firearms purposes, it is

suggested that each chief officer of police may wish to make use of this definition.â€

To gain police approval under it is necessary to write to the police firearms licensing

department for the area concerned seeking a Section 11(6) Exemption.

In the event of a club or individual organising such events on a regular basis the police may

issue the Section 11(6) Exemption for a period of time, for instance, for a year.

Holding a shoot where non-certificate holders are participating without the exemptions above

places organisers and participants outside the law.

ENQUIRIES TO: Phone 01244-573010

E-mail: firearms@basc.org.uk

Firearms Act 1968, Section 11(6)

States:

“A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, use a shotgun at a time and

place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police for

the area in which that place is situated.â€

Whilst the Act does not refer specifically to clay pigeon shooting, this is the most usual form of

artificial target shooting using shotguns. This is not to say that shooting at other artificial

targets cannot be considered.

1. The organiser of any clay pigeon shoot at which persons who do not hold a shotgun

certificate wish to shoot must apply to the police firearms department for the area in which

the shoot is to take place for an exemption under this section.

2. This allows non-certificate holders to use shotguns at a time and place approved by the

police for shooting at artificial targets, which include clay pigeons.

3. This exemption from certification applies ONLY to shotguns falling under section 2 of the

Firearms Act 1968 (as amended)

4. Any person under 15 using a shotgun must be supervised by a person of or over 21.

(Firearms Act 1968, Section 22(3))

5. Prohibited persons as defined by Section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968 (if known) must not

be permitted to be in possession of guns or ammunition.

6. The owners of any shotguns used on the site should bear in mind that the security of those

guns remains solely their responsibility.

 

 

The reason I'm quoting the whole thing (with practical guidance removed) is that it is important to understand that there is a clear difference in firearms law between lending a shotgun (illegal) and lending a firearm (legal).

 

It's not "what I think" it's the law, plain and simple. The guidance does NOT clearly states that a person with ANY right to shoot can be the occupier, far from it. In fact the document is exactly what it is described as "guidance" and the police will not use the document to replace legislation whatever you may think.

 

You seem to think I'm having a pop at you, this isn't so. The bottom lines are simple, if you take a mate out shooting in all likelihood nothing at all will happen and if the plod turns up the chances are that they wouldn't know or understand the law anyway. However, if your mate was to shoot and had an accident that caused an injury or damage to property that resulted in the police attending or police involvement you would lose your SGC and to top it all off your insurance would be invalid and you would have no back up from the BASC.

 

Is it with it? I think not.

 

John