Obsession with breeding lines.

[Nick 14]

Lines, if inbred or linebred, have their special characteristics. You might be looking for some of those.

However; how sure can you be a dog is bred like it is bred if you only have the word or a hand written piece of paper?

No more than when it has an "official" pedigree; prior to DNA testing there was as much fake in those as anywhere else. You could easily fill in another stud as the sire of your litter on the paper.

On the other hand, some of those who only just work their dogs and got one off me, never really asked for even a hand written pedigree. Some know that all my dogs just hunt useful for our hunts, or have seen them work, although some have their favorites and would prefger a pup off a certain dog, and all that I keep and breed with, hunt untill they drop. Although they may not be your ideal because we hunt differently over here.

As a terrier person and breeder of my own and other people's stock, I think bloodlines are important. For breeders, it should be, or ought to be important to know where your dogs come from, also further back, as it can make quite a difference in inheritence, health, etc. where they come from. Breeding consistently performing stock means that you have lines of just workers in your last, say, 5 to 10 generations, and no SHOW SHIT blood involved. That is just one of the things which should concern a breeder, and so, bloodlines and their characteristics concern a breeder. And if they produce good dogs it is something to be truly proud of.

It is also useful for other terrier people that people talk about their bloodlines, put pics of their dogs up here, tell hunting days about them, and how they behave, how their character is, how big or small they are, etc.

That makes it possible for breeders, and hunters, to exchange lines and dogs.

I don't stick to my own, or inbreed. If anyone's good terrier after having seen it work and heard of it, can add to my line or improve it, I will breed to it.

Although I breed my own dogs for 5 and more generations now, I have added others to it, and I wouldn't say I have my own line. Simply, anything that serves the cause will stay, and those that don't or can't, go.

But I can keep my eyes open and look for quality terriers over here, at least I can feast my eyes on some pics of British terriers as a foreigner, and so yes, it is useful that people present, and even boast about, their dogs, and they wouldn't if they wouldn't care, and wouldn't love them. And if there was nothing to talk about. (I guess.)

i think what happens alot is when two lads have a dog and bitch out of the same yard and think by putting them together they are keeping the line going while the yard owner would of never mated them . thats why i think proven stud dogs are as important to working terriers as lines are .thats my thinking anyway

The quality of the individual, and then preferably strengthened by a good strong pedigree.

[Shamo 319]

Breeding and Phylosophies on Breeding, will ALWAYS be and nearly always has been reasons for many a 'debate'. IF someone had the formula for producing consistently high percentage, good quality 'prospects' their Pups could and would be in high demand. Certainly the Sire and Dam would never go to ground again, in my Kennel, should they prove to be producers of like or better than themselves!! Whatever Breed of Dog it is.

Genetics determine everything from Colour, Build and working quality. However the individual Dogs life experiences also determine their overall quality. Genetically the Dog has what it needs, but if the owner is a 'lemon' then that Dog WILL NOT reach it's full potential. This is the reason Breeders of high percentage, high quality Litters SELECT who can have the Pups/Dogs they have bred. This may even include the readiness to euthenise an individual, even if it is a 'tidy' Dog that the owner also Shows and loves to bits! Many good Dogs have not had the up-bringing and start their breeding deserves. Up-bringing won't make a 'cur', but it will help the Dog become a better example of the 'line' and gain some necessary life experiences it may need when 'out'.

Lines and breeding IS VERY important if the intention to breed, should the Dogs 'turn out', from it/them is there. Because, like I said, Genes are what matter (with correct up-bringing) and usually when 'line breeding' and 'in-breeding' and buying/being given dogs from such lines they usually have their traits 'locked in'. For breeding and maintaining a line 'Worker to Worker', but within the same line or Family is my Phylosophy, along with 'cull until it hurts'. I just wish I had the ingredients for the Recipe to make a true 'Digging Dog', not just a baying Fox Dog.......Not my 'Cup of Tea'.

I am a little longer in the Tooth, than, probably, most on here. That in itself doesn't make me any kind of expert or authority, just older and more experienced. I value 'Lineage' very highly and also the guy/guys (who owns/own the Parents) phylosophy on the working and breeding of Terriers. I have culled Terriers rather than put up with low percentage ones, NO MATTER WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE OR HOW BRED. I have waited 3 years for a Pup and then missed out on one due to 'pecking orders' or whatever, during that time not even owning a Terrier to dig to, due to my expectations of what a 'working Terrier' should be. I have also culled during a working day, going home with empty Boxes and Couples!! Only in Hunt Service have I ever tolerated sub standard (in my opinion) Terriers, keeping a couple of what I call, 'Sunday Digging' ones if I have been fortunate enough to get a reasonable one. Truth be told.....There are very, very few (literally a Handful) 100% Terriers out there and considerably less who actually produce 'like' or better than themselves. It is EXTREMELY hard to get hold of decent gear, hence waiting lists for some guys, even then it can be a 'crap shoot' and the old saying....."A Dog is only as good as the last time it went out", is as true now as it's always been.

 

I envy these guys who, after only a owning a few Terriers, find that 100% digging Dog. Could it be they tolerate the failures on some days, equally as much as the successes.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Shamo

[Nick 14]

Certainly the Sire and Dam would never go to ground again

But even a repeat mating from parrents that produced a super litter is not a guarrantee that the repeat will give the same result, it can even be a significant let down.

[Reddog83 4]

Breeding and Phylosophies on Breeding, will ALWAYS be and nearly always has been reasons for many a 'debate'. IF someone had the formula for producing consistently high percentage, good quality 'prospects' their Pups could and would be in high demand. Certainly the Sire and Dam would never go to ground again, in my Kennel, should they prove to be producers of like or better than themselves!! Whatever Breed of Dog it is.

Genetics determine everything from Colour, Build and working quality. However the individual Dogs life experiences also determine their overall quality. Genetically the Dog has what it needs, but if the owner is a 'lemon' then that Dog WILL NOT reach it's full potential. This is the reason Breeders of high percentage, high quality Litters SELECT who can have the Pups/Dogs they have bred. This may even include the readiness to euthenise an individual, even if it is a 'tidy' Dog that the owner also Shows and loves to bits! Many good Dogs have not had the up-bringing and start their breeding deserves. Up-bringing won't make a 'cur', but it will help the Dog become a better example of the 'line' and gain some necessary life experiences it may need when 'out'.

Lines and breeding IS VERY important if the intention to breed, should the Dogs 'turn out', from it/them is there. Because, like I said, Genes are what matter (with correct up-bringing) and usually when 'line breeding' and 'in-breeding' and buying/being given dogs from such lines they usually have their traits 'locked in'. For breeding and maintaining a line 'Worker to Worker', but within the same line or Family is my Phylosophy, along with 'cull until it hurts'. I just wish I had the ingredients for the Recipe to make a true 'Digging Dog', not just a baying Fox Dog.......Not my 'Cup of Tea'.

Spot on mate .. I've seen a few dogs been brought back with the excuse they won't work at 15 month to 2 years only to become good dogs it's all about how you bring them on if the bloods there and brought on correctly most will go because it's in them .... Most time it's the owners to eger for a world beater. And I have only bin involved in terriers 3 years and seen this twice in the last season just shows you how many lemons they really is as both dogs brought back are going steady now to fox and showing there potential

[Shamo 319]

I am closer to fifty than forty and have 'dabbled' in Animal related 'Sports' where lineage and conditioning has played a major part for quite a few years. As Smicker says, the Breeding for success formula has proven, to me and others, to be similar no matter what Animal is being Bred. Whether, in my experiences, it's Game Fowl of any kind, Pitbulls, Terriers, British Finches or Lurchers.

I have had several guys down over the years with their 100% Dogs and a few have been worth feeding, but nearly all I wouldn't want to pick their shite up and feed. I am fortunate enough to be able to dig 7 days a Week and enough digging available to do it...........gone through a LOT of Terriers over the years and still looking for 'THE ONE'. Maybe even getting 'THE TWO' at the same time to breed from.....lol.

The Formula for success is the same, it is getting the RIGHT INGREDIENTS together and being truthful to YOURSELF causes the sleepless nights and years of debating. I have been and, after more than 25 years, still am looking for my TRUE 100% DIGGING DOG, TIDY OR PIG UGLY.

[Waz 4,266]

I am closer to fifty than forty and have 'dabbled' in Animal related 'Sports' where lineage and conditioning has played a major part for quite a few years. As Smicker says, the Breeding for success formula has proven, to me and others, to be similar no matter what Animal is being Bred. Whether, in my experiences, it's Game Fowl of any kind, Pitbulls, Terriers, British Finches or Lurchers.

I have had several guys down over the years with their 100% Dogs and a few have been worth feeding, but nearly all I wouldn't want to pick their shite up and feed. I am fortunate enough to be able to dig 7 days a Week and enough digging available to do it...........gone through a LOT of Terriers over the years and still looking for 'THE ONE'. Maybe even getting 'THE TWO' at the same time to breed from.....lol.

The Formula for success is the same, it is getting the RIGHT INGREDIENTS together and being truthful to YOURSELF causes the sleepless nights and years of debating. I have been and, after more than 25 years, still am looking for my TRUE 100% DIGGING DOG, TIDY OR PIG UGLY.

 

Tell us about the ones that were worth feeding then? dogs or bitches ages etc. You dig 7 days a week or your able too?

[Shamo 319]

I have, in the past, dug 1 to 7 days a Week which includes 3 days a Week while in Hunt Service and Sundays. I have been 'Terrierman' for 3 different registered packs locally over the years. I have also been fortunate enough to work nights, on the Doors, which has given me the days free. There has also been times where I haven't had a Terrier, of my own, to dig to, but gone out on invites with other Terriermen from various Hunts and non Hunt Terriermen, along with guys I have invited down. In the past I have geared my life around having the ability to BE ABLE TO dig as many times as possible, healthy Terrier permitting. I am 47 Years old at the end of May, having had my first Ratting, Rabbiting, Bolting Terrier at the age of 10. I used to go out, as a Kid, with EX,EX Members of local 'Badger Digging Clubs'. I have had Terriers from Ken Gould, Brian Nuttall, Bob Clough, Eddie Chapman and numerous other less well known Terriermen, who have had strains of Terriers, mixed or kept so called 'pure'. Lots of various colours, strains and crosses with various amounts of success. Your question seems to question my credentials, IF IF that is the case I feel I have earned the right to 'blow my own Trumpet' a little....If that's what you are suggesting. If I have read the question incorrectly I apologise for the misunderstanding, on my part.

I am not going to talk about individual Dogs, owners or what we got up to, on digging days, due to possible legality issues. I have had several Dogs, of my own 'make the grade' for a while until they have 'jibbed' or been killed while out etc, etc. One particular Terrier reaching nearly 5 years old and then literally jibbed once too often, after countless digs. I have also had many, many not make the grade IN MY EYES and they have been culled or given away as Fox Dogs and you "may get one now and then" Dogs. 99.5% of failures have been culled out though, having owned and dug to in EXCESS of 250 individual Terriers, with various levels of success, I know what I want and expect. At times being accused of being 'Shovel happy', but I am the one who has to clean their shite and feed and Kennel them. I have had gaps of Months to years of not even owning a Terrier, due to culling, but have been able to go out with others, here and up and down the UK.......BECAUSE I DON'T TALK ABOUT DOGS, OWNERS OR WHAT HAPPENED WHEN OUT......I 'generalise'. I am 'Billy no mates' anyway, so the opportunity to gossip' doesn't arise either, should I want to gossip that is. It is not an insult to an owner to call his Terrier a cur or not my cup of tea, it is the truth! IF GUYS DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER, DON'T ASK THE QUESTION OR PUT YOURSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE THE TRUTH 'WILL OUT'. Even the worst 'cur' is Gamer than the gamest Human, in my opinion.

There is a lot of crap and misleading stuff goes on these Sites, but the aim should be the same now as when the Fell and Moorland started.......to maintain and improve the Working Terrier.......for DIGGING, to work to Ground at whatever is put in front of it, to stay to ground until dug to and to work in a manner where he can be dug to with minimum fuss. The personal opinion comes into it when different guys expect or accept the job done in different ways. Bayer/Mixer/Stayer/Hour only Dog/60% success rate Dog etc, etc, etc. This is where the truth and honesty comes into it too, owning up to what you are willing to accept and why!! I hope 'GDWaz' I have given you as thorough a reply/explanation as you wanted.....IF NOT, TOUGH! Like I said before, if I have misinterpreted your questions I apologise for the 'tone' of all the above.

[Waz 4,266]

I have, in the past, dug 1 to 7 days a Week which includes 3 days a Week while in Hunt Service and Sundays. I have been 'Terrierman' for 3 different registered packs locally over the years. I have also been fortunate enough to work nights, on the Doors, which has given me the days free. There has also been times where I haven't had a Terrier, of my own, to dig to, but gone out on invites with other Terriermen from various Hunts and non Hunt Terriermen, along with guys I have invited down. In the past I have geared my life around having the ability to BE ABLE TO dig as many times as possible, healthy Terrier permitting. I am 47 Years old at the end of May, having had my first Ratting, Rabbiting, Bolting Terrier at the age of 10. I used to go out, as a Kid, with EX,EX Members of local 'Badger Digging Clubs'. I have had Terriers from Ken Gould, Brian Nuttall, Bob Clough, Eddie Chapman and numerous other less well known Terriermen, who have had strains of Terriers, mixed or kept so called 'pure'. Lots of various colours, strains and crosses with various amounts of success. Your question seems to question my credentials, IF IF that is the case I feel I have earned the right to 'blow my own Trumpet' a little....If that's what you are suggesting. If I have read the question incorrectly I apologise for the misunderstanding, on my part.

I am not going to talk about individual Dogs, owners or what we got up to, on digging days, due to possible legality issues. I have had several Dogs, of my own 'make the grade' for a while until they have 'jibbed' or been killed while out etc, etc. One particular Terrier reaching nearly 5 years old and then literally jibbed once too often, after countless digs. I have also had many, many not make the grade IN MY EYES and they have been culled or given away as Fox Dogs and you "may get one now and then" Dogs. 99.5% of failures have been culled out though, having owned and dug to in EXCESS of 250 individual Terriers, with various levels of success, I know what I want and expect. At times being accused of being 'Shovel happy', but I am the one who has to clean their shite and feed and Kennel them. I have had gaps of Months to years of not even owning a Terrier, due to culling, but have been able to go out with others, here and up and down the UK.......BECAUSE I DON'T TALK ABOUT DOGS, OWNERS OR WHAT HAPPENED WHEN OUT......I 'generalise'. I am 'Billy no mates' anyway, so the opportunity to gossip' doesn't arise either, should I want to gossip that is. It is not an insult to an owner to call his Terrier a cur or not my cup of tea, it is the truth! IF GUYS DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER, DON'T ASK THE QUESTION OR PUT YOURSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE THE TRUTH 'WILL OUT'. Even the worst 'cur' is Gamer than the gamest Human, in my opinion.

There is a lot of crap and misleading stuff goes on these Sites, but the aim should be the same now as when the Fell and Moorland started.......to maintain and improve the Working Terrier.......for DIGGING, to work to Ground at whatever is put in front of it, to stay to ground until dug to and to work in a manner where he can be dug to with minimum fuss. The personal opinion comes into it when different guys expect or accept the job done in different ways. Bayer/Mixer/Stayer/Hour only Dog/60% success rate Dog etc, etc, etc. This is where the truth and honesty comes into it too, owning up to what you are willing to accept and why!! I hope 'GDWaz' I have given you as thorough a reply/explanation as you wanted.....IF NOT, TOUGH! Like I said before, if I have misinterpreted your questions I apologise for the 'tone' of all the above.

 

 

Ok, am sure theres lots of reasons for not talking about individual dogs (I understand), and thats what I was asking. Misinterpreted maybe, lol.

I remembered you saying here or elsewhere that you had long gaps without having a terrier, hence asking about '7 days' digging.

 

If one of the F&M's original aims was to maintain and improve, in your opinion is it not possible to use your own philosophies of breeding to improve?

If your are doing away with left right and centre then you are not exactly mantaining...? After 25 years of trying to find your true 100% terrier, maybe it never existed?

[Shamo 319]

'smicker' I have been area rep for the F&M twice, giving it up the last time about 14 years or so ago. I went to a general meeting one year and the biggest talking point and debate was about the colour the Rosettes should be of the Clubs main Show!! This was some 'so called' names in the Club too, explaining they had won coutless Rosettes and they should be this or that colour. I was of the opinion "who gives a shite"??! In between the debate and shouting we had the South Wales area Rep telling, anyone who would listen, he had the best Badger Digging Borders in the Country. For me it was a raised Eyebrows and a kick under the Table moment.....lol. I never went to another general meeting and resigned, for the first time, not long after. Taking it up again several years later just to keep the area going, losing faith and after a while giving it up again, never to return or be a member......no point, with the way I used to work my dogs. I kept myself to myself too much to become aquainted with too many guys with gear worth having......living to regret it to be honest. I was and am limited financially to pay some of the asking prices, especially being honest to myself and culling like I did, still do. Like I've said always looking for 'THE ONE'.

'GDWaz' to discuss things fully and properly it can't be done, without naming Dogs and owners. The Terrier Worlds full of questions and what ifs......maybe there isn't 'THE ONE' out there for me, but it is and has been good trying to find it. I know what I want and expect from a DIGGING TERRIER, it comes down to what I am prepared to accept, in reality. Not EVERY ONE can be dug, for whatever reason, but it is still down to what you will accept and why. 60% success rate for a Terrier I can't and won't accept, but an 85% may stay with me........being realistic and the experience of the owner has a lot to do with it then. As I have said they are not all successful digs, for one reason or another, but I expect them all to be, however, I have accepted some failures from individual Terriers on occasion. Always remember though....a dog is only as good as it's last dig!

[jimmys shop 182]

Shamo think you have talked about your experience with your terriers

very openly here on this topic ,you haven,t held anything back about what

you want and what you expect from them ,you have made your posts worth reading,

, like to say on my behalf ,thanks .

[fat man 4,741]

3 GREAT POSTS SHAMO

[fidodido 30]

how many true terrier men are there its full of pricks and messers just like the lurcher world an if some did get a good worker they`d only abuse it an jack the dog or sicken it as even the best workers have got a limit its about the right dog in the right hands too many pricks in the game thats why real grafting dogs are few and far between just like the true terriermen.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

great thread with some very good posts , Ive never owned nothing that came close to hundred 100% digging dog but then i think some vastly exaggerated the meaning of 100% Ive seen a lot like you shamo iam even closer to 50 than 40, in my younger days travelled the length and breadth of the country to see and work terriers, with hunts , keepers etc , some of the best terriers and terrier men are not known as names nore would they ever want to be but had in there kennels tools for the job, were they 100% again it depends on your definition of 100% they kept terriers for fox work and only for this task others had multitasking terriers , i don't think i ever heard the expression 100% back then , but totally respect your ideology on working terriers , to have worked for three reg packs and dug to the extent you have and still hold the working terrier in such high esteem has my respect , i like you listen to people who claim they have the 100% and envy them me i just think terriers ain't robots some will work some wont , but i also realize the need for pro terrier men to want, need, the best they can get and to cull . Breed with work in mind there aint no SUCH thing as an ugly working terrier

Edited March 11, 2011 by gonetoearth