tinytiger 840 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) theirs allways jobs for all dogs and i don,t think it will ever change and ever should regardless of breed , Can't realy agree with that, mate ! Everything is continualy evolving, even dogs ! Just look at the coursing dog, the Saluki Hybrid is a relativly modern phenomenon, but is generaly accepted as the best hare coursing dog in the world, now ! Cheers. Thats true, I used to watch crufts and see these wee fluffy terrier types prancing and the commentator would say.... this dog was once used for badgers!!! I know its a bad example cos I personally hate the kennel club but you know what I mean and at the very least, I do lol. Ba, I would say that the "Crufts,KC" dogs have degenerated because of the inbreeding and the breeding for looks over form ! The saluki Hybrid benefited by "Hybrid Vigour", but for how long can that go on, when every coursing dog seems to trace back to "Merlin and Eve" ? I'm sure the lads with the best dogs are using outcross Greyhounds and Salukis, but the guys that only want the "Known" breeds in their dogs, could be going down the "Crufts" route ! Inasmuch as having "to much of a good thing " !! Cheers. hi chartpolski,its not often i disagree with your posts-id say that as long as work is the primary driving force behind selection of breeding stock id say they should be o.k..Any dog that can catch 3 out of 3 hares cant have too much wrong with its genes.I agree with you about people breeding off "names" generations back,if the parents are no good.The main problem with crufts breeds is that all they have to do is prance around a ring and some of the standards are way off what is suitable to the work the dogs were bred for. e.g http://www.greyhound...begins&x=41&y=4 (fairly inbred too) this lad won the english greyhound derby,won crufts and went to the last 4 in the waterloo cup,http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=71541(how it should be) Edited February 28, 2011 by tinytiger Quote Link to post
jimmy100 48 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 What a thread lol!! Personally i think the springer is the ultimate gundog and are a breed i love as much as lurchers! It horses for courses really but a lurcher would find pheasants better than a springer would course a hare lol! Quote Link to post
whin 463 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 labtastic used my collie l;ine for decades as gun dogs even got a saluki cross who retrieves birds to hand , ive been brought up around running dogs gun dogs a good lurcher well hold its own with a shoot dog not a trail dog .but a gun dog will never be a good lurcher came third in time trail gun dog event and 4th in scurry just two dummy affairs , but one several obeidence comps against gundogs colies etc with luke out of chapmans bob d slieghts katie ,his granddaughter got same ability and even some with saluk in them still fetch like the old dogs , and not with me trainig them just in them .but the same lurcher would sneck ahare pull aroe rabbit or fox in there prime go with the gun at nite get roosters peg a wounded bird fetch it to hand alive , work cover to signals i did spend alot of time training them mostly summer time ,with the [bANNED TEXT] lines of lurcher you would be surprised ,why do you think dogs like that are despised by keepers as they know there very good at what taking game ,there should never be a comparison with lurchers and gun dogs diffrent dogs one you neeed gun other no gun so the ball stope there most of the time a diffrent sport alltogether Quote Link to post
chartpolski 24,296 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) theirs allways jobs for all dogs and i don,t think it will ever change and ever should regardless of breed , Can't realy agree with that, mate ! Everything is continualy evolving, even dogs ! Just look at the coursing dog, the Saluki Hybrid is a relativly modern phenomenon, but is generaly accepted as the best hare coursing dog in the world, now ! Cheers. Thats true, I used to watch crufts and see these wee fluffy terrier types prancing and the commentator would say.... this dog was once used for badgers!!! I know its a bad example cos I personally hate the kennel club but you know what I mean and at the very least, I do lol. Ba, I would say that the "Crufts,KC" dogs have degenerated because of the inbreeding and the breeding for looks over form ! The saluki Hybrid benefited by "Hybrid Vigour", but for how long can that go on, when every coursing dog seems to trace back to "Merlin and Eve" ? I'm sure the lads with the best dogs are using outcross Greyhounds and Salukis, but the guys that only want the "Known" breeds in their dogs, could be going down the "Crufts" route ! Inasmuch as having "to much of a good thing " !! Cheers. hi chartpolski,its not often i disagree with your posts-id say that as long as work is the primary driving force behind selection of breeding stock id say they should be o.k..Any dog that can catch 3 out of 3 hares cant have too much wrong with its genes.I agree with you about people breeding off "names" generations back,if the parents are no good.The main problem with crufts breeds is that all they have to do is prance around a ring and some of the standards are way off what is suitable to the work the dogs were bred for. e.g http://www.greyhound...begins&x=41&y=4 (fairly inbred too) this lad won the english greyhound derby,won crufts and went to the last 4 in the waterloo cup,http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=71541(how it should be) Are you sure that dog won The Derby and made the last four of the Waterloo ? What years was that and what names did it run under ? I can't find any mention of it in these competitions. There IS one breed of KC dog that still can win shows and do what it was bred for; the Whippet! There have been some that won shows, races and coursing events. But I've never heard of a Greyhound doing the same. That dog looks to have to much of a "show stance" back end to be any good at racing or coursing. Cheers. Edited February 28, 2011 by chartpolski Quote Link to post
toby1066 413 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 true charpolski the pedigree show greyhound is a different animal from racing coursing greyhounds Quote Link to post
tinytiger 840 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 theirs allways jobs for all dogs and i don,t think it will ever change and ever should regardless of breed , Can't realy agree with that, mate ! Everything is continualy evolving, even dogs ! Just look at the coursing dog, the Saluki Hybrid is a relativly modern phenomenon, but is generaly accepted as the best hare coursing dog in the world, now ! Cheers. Thats true, I used to watch crufts and see these wee fluffy terrier types prancing and the commentator would say.... this dog was once used for badgers!!! I know its a bad example cos I personally hate the kennel club but you know what I mean and at the very least, I do lol. Ba, I would say that the "Crufts,KC" dogs have degenerated because of the inbreeding and the breeding for looks over form ! The saluki Hybrid benefited by "Hybrid Vigour", but for how long can that go on, when every coursing dog seems to trace back to "Merlin and Eve" ? I'm sure the lads with the best dogs are using outcross Greyhounds and Salukis, but the guys that only want the "Known" breeds in their dogs, could be going down the "Crufts" route ! Inasmuch as having "to much of a good thing " !! Cheers. hi chartpolski,its not often i disagree with your posts-id say that as long as work is the primary driving force behind selection of breeding stock id say they should be o.k..Any dog that can catch 3 out of 3 hares cant have too much wrong with its genes.I agree with you about people breeding off "names" generations back,if the parents are no good.The main problem with crufts breeds is that all they have to do is prance around a ring and some of the standards are way off what is suitable to the work the dogs were bred for. e.g http://www.greyhound...begins&x=41&y=4 (fairly inbred too) this lad won the english greyhound derby,won crufts and went to the last 4 in the waterloo cup,http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=71541(how it should be) Are you sure that dog won The Derby and made the last four of the Waterloo ? What years was that and what names did it run under ? I can't find any mention of it in these competitions. There IS one breed of KC dog that still can win shows and do what it was bred for; the Whippet! There have been some that won shows, races and coursing events. But I've never heard of a Greyhound doing the same. That dog looks to have to much of a "show stance" back end to be any good at racing or coursing. Cheers. The link to him wouldnt load properly for me,it was endless gossip .(1952 derby winner in 28.50) http://thedogs.co.uk/index.php?m=aid&id=65 Quote Link to post
chartpolski 24,296 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 theirs allways jobs for all dogs and i don,t think it will ever change and ever should regardless of breed , Can't realy agree with that, mate ! Everything is continualy evolving, even dogs ! Just look at the coursing dog, the Saluki Hybrid is a relativly modern phenomenon, but is generaly accepted as the best hare coursing dog in the world, now ! Cheers. Thats true, I used to watch crufts and see these wee fluffy terrier types prancing and the commentator would say.... this dog was once used for badgers!!! I know its a bad example cos I personally hate the kennel club but you know what I mean and at the very least, I do lol. Ba, I would say that the "Crufts,KC" dogs have degenerated because of the inbreeding and the breeding for looks over form ! The saluki Hybrid benefited by "Hybrid Vigour", but for how long can that go on, when every coursing dog seems to trace back to "Merlin and Eve" ? I'm sure the lads with the best dogs are using outcross Greyhounds and Salukis, but the guys that only want the "Known" breeds in their dogs, could be going down the "Crufts" route ! Inasmuch as having "to much of a good thing " !! Cheers. hi chartpolski,its not often i disagree with your posts-id say that as long as work is the primary driving force behind selection of breeding stock id say they should be o.k..Any dog that can catch 3 out of 3 hares cant have too much wrong with its genes.I agree with you about people breeding off "names" generations back,if the parents are no good.The main problem with crufts breeds is that all they have to do is prance around a ring and some of the standards are way off what is suitable to the work the dogs were bred for. e.g http://www.greyhound...begins&x=41&y=4 (fairly inbred too) this lad won the english greyhound derby,won crufts and went to the last 4 in the waterloo cup,http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=71541(how it should be) Are you sure that dog won The Derby and made the last four of the Waterloo ? What years was that and what names did it run under ? I can't find any mention of it in these competitions. There IS one breed of KC dog that still can win shows and do what it was bred for; the Whippet! There have been some that won shows, races and coursing events. But I've never heard of a Greyhound doing the same. That dog looks to have to much of a "show stance" back end to be any good at racing or coursing. Cheers. The link to him wouldnt load properly for me,it was endless gossip .(1952 derby winner in 28.50) http://thedogs.co.uk/index.php?m=aid&id=65 Sorry mate, the way your post was worded and the link you put up, I thought you were on about Shazam !! Although "Gossip" was undoubtably a great dog, he didn't win Crufts ! "Winning a prize" at Crufts isn't the same as "winning" Crufts. Cheers. Quote Link to post
tinytiger 840 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 anyways sorry for digressing from the topic at hand,i dont think the days of the setter or pointer are numbered yet..the link to gossips pedigree wouldnt load for some reason (sorry about confusion).The dog that won the irish coursing derby this year should be interesting to see on the track (track bred) Quote Link to post
willrockyted 4 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 You sometimes see a labrador with a touch of greyhound in it just to give it that extra pace, but they still have a soft mouth. but that begs the question why would you want a gun dog with extra pace as presumably they are all ready bred right for the job,or are they,dont know iv lost myself now Would this not technicaly be a lurcher ????? ATB have heard of a few of this type over the years but they certainly not common,i asked about gry/lab long time ago but people were very negative prob due to the likely litter waistage,to heavy I recon your right mate but would be interesting to see what a light weight long dog say Saluki x Greyhound first cross and one of the lighter weight field trial labs would throw. I cant see any reason why they wouldn't make good ferreting and bushing/mooching dogs and even tidy lampers if they threw light enough. ATB i use my lab for ferreting marks very well and holds in the net very good bushing as well i think with the right one you would have a very good all rounder mine runs stuff but just not quiet got the speed if he did not much would get away very keen keeps crossing my mine whether to put him over my lurcher in a few years atb Quote Link to post
watchman 256 Posted February 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 You sometimes see a labrador with a touch of greyhound in it just to give it that extra pace, but they still have a soft mouth. but that begs the question why would you want a gun dog with extra pace as presumably they are all ready bred right for the job,or are they,dont know iv lost myself now Would this not technicaly be a lurcher ????? ATB have heard of a few of this type over the years but they certainly not common,i asked about gry/lab long time ago but people were very negative prob due to the likely litter waistage,to heavy I recon your right mate but would be interesting to see what a light weight long dog say Saluki x Greyhound first cross and one of the lighter weight field trial labs would throw. I cant see any reason why they wouldn't make good ferreting and bushing/mooching dogs and even tidy lampers if they threw light enough. ATB i use my lab for ferreting marks very well and holds in the net very good bushing as well i think with the right one you would have a very good all rounder mine runs stuff but just not quiet got the speed if he did not much would get away very keen keeps crossing my mine whether to put him over my lurcher in a few years atb but then you have to look at what your achieving putting a gun dog/lab whatever across your lurchers,dont think its going to be anything that has not already been thought of and dismissed at the same time,they are not a common enough cross for people to have and im guessing there is a good reason for that Quote Link to post
fensaluki 35 Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 better use the lurcher,the day after the shoot to find the gamebirds,all these gundogs have left,,but that never happens now dose it?now if you cross a gundog with a greyhound its a lurcher fact!,,,its all about £££,bloodlines,get the best gundog you know nd cross it with a greyhound,most of the pups will make better gundogs if trained same,,,but dont tell them its a lurcher,,, :laugh: What would be the advantage of putting greyhound into a gundog?........... A more versatile athletis animal perhaps, now if I had a pound for every time I seen labs etc have gates opened for them or be lifted over a fence I'd be a rich man for sure. back to these shit dogs that you have seen again mate.....6 bar gate no problem here.... But stop and think , the question is basically about lurchers versus gundogs (simplified I know) your comparing them to your labs, might anyone else be (me) comparing their lurchers to the labs they've seen. Answer honestly how many shite labs incapable of jumping a fence, ruining a drive, leaving birds fit for bugger all but ferret food have you seen?. Now tell me a well bred, well reared lurcher couldn't compete with them. 110% they could, never said they couldn't. I've seen plenty that are an embarressment, but you could say that about some running dogs, jackers i think there called.... I'm talking about top gundogs bred for purpose.... Difference being mate is that you see these embarressing gun dogs year in year out,completly out of control and no respect for their master were as you tend to find that if working running dog acts like this is dose not stay a working running dog for long. Please dont beleive for one second that I know nothing about training labs to the gun and I have to say that when it comes down to cold hard facts then you are dead right that the very best labs and spaniels would almost certainly be better than the best trained lurch in the world.But what I'm saying is on average lurcher men have and expect higher standards from their dogs than the average gundog handler. As I said an unruley working lurcher will not stay that way for long whilst pleanty of shooting folk are quite happy to let their dogs run riot and spoil other peoples day s long as they get their bit of shooting and have pleanty of port to slurp ll day. Tally ho ATB Quote Link to post
Lab 10,979 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 better use the lurcher,the day after the shoot to find the gamebirds,all these gundogs have left,,but that never happens now dose it?now if you cross a gundog with a greyhound its a lurcher fact!,,,its all about £££,bloodlines,get the best gundog you know nd cross it with a greyhound,most of the pups will make better gundogs if trained same,,,but dont tell them its a lurcher,,, :laugh: What would be the advantage of putting greyhound into a gundog?........... A more versatile athletis animal perhaps, now if I had a pound for every time I seen labs etc have gates opened for them or be lifted over a fence I'd be a rich man for sure. back to these shit dogs that you have seen again mate.....6 bar gate no problem here.... But stop and think , the question is basically about lurchers versus gundogs (simplified I know) your comparing them to your labs, might anyone else be (me) comparing their lurchers to the labs they've seen. Answer honestly how many shite labs incapable of jumping a fence, ruining a drive, leaving birds fit for bugger all but ferret food have you seen?. Now tell me a well bred, well reared lurcher couldn't compete with them. 110% they could, never said they couldn't. I've seen plenty that are an embarressment, but you could say that about some running dogs, jackers i think there called.... I'm talking about top gundogs bred for purpose.... Difference being mate is that you see these embarressing gun dogs year in year out,completly out of control and no respect for their master were as you tend to find that if working running dog acts like this is dose not stay a working running dog for long. Please dont beleive for one second that I know nothing about training labs to the gun and I have to say that when it comes down to cold hard facts then you are dead right that the very best labs and spaniels would almost certainly be better than the best trained lurch in the world.But what I'm saying is on average lurcher men have and expect higher standards from their dogs than the average gundog handler. As I said an unruley working lurcher will not stay that way for long whilst pleanty of shooting folk are quite happy to let their dogs run riot and spoil other peoples day s long as they get their bit of shooting and have pleanty of port to slurp ll day. Tally ho ATB Very true......some folk have had pups trained for them to a decent standard and have ruined them in a few months. I'll put my hands up and say i know very little on training a lurcher,i am learning on here though and i do think it will be along the same lines as training up my labs'. You may disagree but i would say that more people could train a lurcher to run game than they could to teach a top gundog to work.....yes/no?... I dont see much chavs training up gundogs, maybe its because the kill factor is not involved in the gundog world. I cant agree that lurcher men have higher standards than gundog men.....if they are both passioniate about there hobby/sport then they will want the best no matter what.... Quote Link to post
gav22 24 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 i have a lab cross she will catch bunnys and retreive and rise birds but she will not take on fox Quote Link to post
fensaluki 35 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 better use the lurcher,the day after the shoot to find the gamebirds,all these gundogs have left,,but that never happens now dose it?now if you cross a gundog with a greyhound its a lurcher fact!,,,its all about £££,bloodlines,get the best gundog you know nd cross it with a greyhound,most of the pups will make better gundogs if trained same,,,but dont tell them its a lurcher,,, :laugh: What would be the advantage of putting greyhound into a gundog?........... A more versatile athletis animal perhaps, now if I had a pound for every time I seen labs etc have gates opened for them or be lifted over a fence I'd be a rich man for sure. back to these shit dogs that you have seen again mate.....6 bar gate no problem here.... But stop and think , the question is basically about lurchers versus gundogs (simplified I know) your comparing them to your labs, might anyone else be (me) comparing their lurchers to the labs they've seen. Answer honestly how many shite labs incapable of jumping a fence, ruining a drive, leaving birds fit for bugger all but ferret food have you seen?. Now tell me a well bred, well reared lurcher couldn't compete with them. 110% they could, never said they couldn't. I've seen plenty that are an embarressment, but you could say that about some running dogs, jackers i think there called.... I'm talking about top gundogs bred for purpose.... Difference being mate is that you see these embarressing gun dogs year in year out,completly out of control and no respect for their master were as you tend to find that if working running dog acts like this is dose not stay a working running dog for long. Please dont beleive for one second that I know nothing about training labs to the gun and I have to say that when it comes down to cold hard facts then you are dead right that the very best labs and spaniels would almost certainly be better than the best trained lurch in the world.But what I'm saying is on average lurcher men have and expect higher standards from their dogs than the average gundog handler. As I said an unruley working lurcher will not stay that way for long whilst pleanty of shooting folk are quite happy to let their dogs run riot and spoil other peoples day s long as they get their bit of shooting and have pleanty of port to slurp ll day. Tally ho ATB Very true......some folk have had pups trained for them to a decent standard and have ruined them in a few months. I'll put my hands up and say i know very little on training a lurcher,i am learning on here though and i do think it will be along the same lines as training up my labs'. You may disagree but i would say that more people could train a lurcher to run game than they could to teach a top gundog to work.....yes/no?... I dont see much chavs training up gundogs, maybe its because the kill factor is not involved in the gundog world. I cant agree that lurcher men have higher standards than gundog men.....if they are both passioniate about there hobby/sport then they will want the best no matter what.... I do agree mate.in my honest opinion it is easyer to get a good running dog doing his job than it is to get a good gun dog doing his.But then I beleive this tells a story on its own about the two different types of dog. I never said that all lurcher men have higher standards than gun dog men I said on average meaning that you will find far more gun dog handlers allowing their dogs to run riot than you will lurcher men.this is not at all a dig at gun dog men. the men that are passionate about them are as passionate as any man about any dog and you are sure right they take them to the highest standard that is stunning to watch but I just dont think that there is as high persentage of folks like this in the gundog world as there is in the running dog world thats all. Only my opinion though ATB Quote Link to post
fensaluki 35 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 i have a lab cross she will catch bunnys and retreive and rise birds but she will not take on fox Nice looking bitch though mate ATB Quote Link to post
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