which .177 for hunting?

[zini 1,939]

Umm I can't fully agree with your statement there pal, not 100% anyway .

 

Firstly you shouldn't be shooting well outside your own limits at range anyway in any calibre .

 

If you’re not the worlds best shot then don't take the shot on the animal in the first place irrespective of calibre. Your answer to the lad is fine and based on a windless, still and calm day Squirrel Shooter .

 

Target shooting yes as this is how we improve our skill level without wounding and a experienced hunter will have done lots of it in his time .

 

Using a calibre to compensate for less emphasis being put on the shooter's own ability is not a good reason in my opinion .

 

Using a calibre to help eliminate every possibility of judging a range wrong and minimising on wounding when YOU ARE skilful enough to be making a long range shot is generally accepted.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, 99.9% of all air rifle hunting is done on a static target so I’m not getting what you are on about in regards to target shooting and shooting at a target the same distance each time. I thought that we based our shooting on a 1 shot 1 kill ratio so the first shot at what ever distance is very important in any calibre .

 

Lots of people also own their own LRF so day time range estimation is not a problem. If a LRF says the bunny is at 46 metres, it generally is at 46 metres in any calibre so knowing you own POA for elevation and WINDAGE is just as important with any calibre .

 

Regarding using a .177 for less emphasis being put on the shooter's own ability .

 

Have a think about this situation mate and not a windless perfect day. This is the type of day that we mostly get anyway when out hunting .

 

Someone is hunting with a mate on a day with a slight breeze right to left at 8 mph in there shooting arcs.

 

Both are INEXPERIENCED shots. one uses a .177 and the other uses a .22 calibre sub 12 ft/lb air rifle.

 

Both have just read on an air gun forum that a .177 is better at eliminating shooter ability. The guy with the .177 feels like quid’s in today (watch out anything that gets in his way).

 

The target squizzer appears at 46 metres (lased with a LRF) and the .177 guy is zeroed at 30 metres bang on as that is his max shooting range really, but he thinks that because he is using a .177 emphasis isn’t put on him to miss so much today so he is feeling confident (the squizzer is already in the bag).

 

He understands that he as to aim slightly higher to hit his mark, so he gives the shot ½ to ¾ of a mildots elevation mag depending. (all is looking good).

 

The squizzer is side ways on facing his left (perfect position to hit him in the left hand side of the brain) the cross hair is placed on the squizzers brain and he squeezes the trigger letting the pellet fly.

 

Because he was basing the shot on the smaller calibre theoretically being more accurate and he is not an experienced shot he feels that the squizzer is already in the bag.

 

If he didn’t allow enough elevation the calibre will be kind to him he thinks. (This shooting lark is dead easy).

 

He lifts his head straight away as he don’t know about follow through ( WHATS FOLLOW THROUGH) who needs that what ever it is anyway?

 

The pellet impacts with a hollow thud and he sees the squizzer scream out as its jumps about screaming out in a loud high pitch chatter. It’s on its feet and the lad looks through his scope again to see the squizzer bleeding intensely from the mouth area. He then watches before trying a second shot as it run off out of sight to die in an uncouth way. (umm what happened there then?)

 

Something called windage and aiming off that any calibre be it .177 or .22 can’t eliminate easily (sorry).

 

Now let’s look at the same situation with a .22 calibre pellet and the exact same rules less zero range.

 

This time his mate is zeroed at 25 metres and gives 2.5 mildots of elevation (all looking good so far)

 

He squeezes off the trigger and hears a TWACK as the pellet impacts. The squizzer rolls about on the floor before dying after 20 seconds or so of rolling around. (Job done).

 

On inspecting the dead squizzer he sees that the pellet impacted in its lower neck towards its throat hence the slower death (not good and not where i wanted the pellet to impact but its dead and not suffered very long if at all like my mates shot squizzer must have).

 

So what happened here then and why he thinks?

 

I have always heard and read that a .177 is more accurate so why did my mate miss with his .177 wounding that last squizzer really badly at the same distance and in the same conditions with the same POA when I got a kill?

 

This is a simple answer.

 

A .177 pellet is effected much more in the breeze / wind than a .22 heavier pellet is, so the theory about a .177 theoretically being more accurate is correct for gun to target line in windless conditions due to the flatter parabolioc pellet trajectory and if the shooter is steady on his shot, but not so correct in a wind when your not experienced and dont allow correctly for wind.

 

In summary both shots should not have been made in the first place as both shooters were well out of their own comfort zone and asking to run into wounding territory.

 

What you are actually talking about here Squirrel Shooter is using a smaller, flatter calibre to make shooting easier at longer ranges(Gun to target line only) elevation wise only in perfect conditions or out at night on calm nights with no wind when range estimation is hard, hence HFT and Field target shooters using a .177 for it being more forgiving. This is will agree with

 

Not because it's a more accurate calibre. The original thread was about accuracy of a calibre for longer range shots on bunnies.

 

Quote “I am looking at changing to a .177 air rifle for hunting as the rabbits around here are easily spooked and wondered if anybody would recommend it for longer shots? “ unquote.

 

Umm (What longer range shots on a windless calm day or night or in the normal UK weather conditions, i.e wind and breeze?).

 

Most if the modern pcp and spring piston rifles will out shoot it's owner, so if I can put a pellet on top of a pellet at 40 yards with a .22 and you can do it with a .177 at the same distance in any weather condition how can anyone say that the .177 is a more accurate calibre?

 

Lastly it doesn’t matter which calibre you use, the wind will effect the pellet (laturally)to a degree so range elimination means nothing if you don’t know how to aim off in the first place.

 

I think that we will have to agree to disagree here mate sorry, but as i said before i do agree to a certain degree if you are shooting on a windless, calm day. The sort of day that you only get a few times a year if your lucky .

 

Just before you think that i am a narrow minded person and only shoot .22. I have both calibre rifles and rate both calibres highly with the .177 having more uses for what i use my rifles for personally

 

.177 lamping - more range forgiving as i said above and earlier but still requiring perfect windage adjustment.

 

.177 for HFT when i do it.

 

.22 for ratting due to the slower velocity and larger pellet diameter giving more kinetic transfer, and day time shooting where i can range the target with my LRF easily before taking the shot .

 

Come back at me if you like mate as I am always keen to say sorry my i get proven wrong.

 

ATB

 

Si

Edited February 18, 2011 by zini

[Rake aboot 4,935]

Some long ranges mentioned there .

 

Regarding the “The .177 is more accurate than a .22†that you sometimes hear banding about is just a myth.

 

I would say better forgiving for range estimation errors but defo not more accurate.

 

As long as I know the range to a target with my .22 r10 I know that I can hit any target that a .177 will hit at the same range unless it’s a smaller diameter than the 5.5mm pellet.

 

Most of my all time best shots have been with a .22 pellet.

 

Si

Yes, they will both share the same consistency. But the inherently flatter trajectory of the .177 will, in practice, typically translate to a greater degree of accuracy, as less emphasis is put on the shooter's ability. After all we're talking about hunting here. Not traditional target shooting where you're shooting at a static target of consistent size at an identical distance every time.

 

Zinis point exactley. Practice means there is no difference between the calibres.

 

I can hit as consitently with a .22 as I can with the .177.

[mikeyblue 28]

The caliber debate will be around for as long as air-rifles themselves.

 

It's all about personal preference and the conditions you shoot. My personal preference is to run light-ish pellets at high fps, around 815fps (11.6ft/lb). I find I get a very flat trajectory, never needing more than 1 mil dot hold over past my zero range (45yds), and very little windage to account for.

 

Mikey.

[zini 1,939]

Umm I was shooting a hft 2 weeks ago with about 6 other Lads off here all were using .177 calibre rifles. Some shots needed a mildot or more at 20 yards in the wind.

[mikeyblue 28]

Must of been a hurricane!

 

I dont think its as simple as the theory of the heavier the projectile, the less it is affected by wind.

 

For instance I shoot a lot of HFT comps around the country, so am constantly testing different pellets, set ups etc. After talking to Tench he told me he used JSB Heavies 10.3gn in windy conditions. I tried them running them at 715fps in a cross wind, and found them to have the same wind susceptibility as JSB Express 7.9gn running at 815fps.

 

I think the time the projectile is exposed to the wind has to be taken into account also.

 

Edited to say, not trying to bring up the age old caliber debate, just posting what works best for me

 

Mikey.

Edited February 18, 2011 by mikeyblue

[zini 1,939]

Hi Mikey,

 

You throw a golf ball 50 metres in a cross wind at 60 mph and it will veer off due to the wind.

 

You now throw a ping pong ball the same distance and with 1 third to 1 times the power more and see what happens.

 

It's basic science and down to density, surface area and BC, i.e the small the BC the quicker the object slows down and the faster it will be effected by the wind, hence your speed theory also being correct mate. .

 

Do the same test with a 7.62 mm and a 5.56 mm ball round at 300 metres and also see what happens. The smaller, lighter and faster 5.56 mm gets affected a slight bit more.

 

I agree though i think that its down to time of flight and the effects of above so the closer the range the less the wind effects the projectile.

 

Si

Edited February 18, 2011 by zini

[mikeyblue 28]

I agree, It is basic physics if both projectiles have the same density, weight, velocity shape etc. You throw differing factors into the mix and its far from simple, as my testing proved.

 

Mikey.

[zini 1,939]

Mikey

 

Si

[Malt 379]

 

 

But the inherently flatter trajectory of the .177 will, in practice, typically translate to a greater degree of accuracy..

 

Not under all conditions, so you're still talking theoretically, not practically..

[Squirrel Shooter 5]

 

 

But the inherently flatter trajectory of the .177 will, in practice, typically translate to a greater degree of accuracy..

 

Not under all conditions, so you're still talking theoretically, not practically..

Yes that's down the shooter's ability to estimate and adjust for range.

[Squirrel Shooter 5]

Yes, .22 pellets do typically have higher ballistic coefficients than their .177 equivalents, theoretically making them less susceptible to energy dissipation and wind. Although both of these advantages are made negligible by the fact that their muzzle velocities are both set to the same limit (12 ft/lb.) I will try to explain my reasoning...

 

It is true that projectiles with lower ballistic coefficients are more affected by cross winds, but this phenomenon is compounded by the amount of time the projectile is in flight. Obviously the .22 pellet will take slightly longer to impact its target. Meaning that although it is incurring less pressure from the side, it will typically move almost as much as the same pattern in .177 would. Even in the heaviest of winds that a hunter’s liable to encounter.

 

The .22 will also suffer more drop, due to its loopier trajectory, again leaving more room for error when it comes to shot placement – which I think is largely regarded as the most important area of hunting.

 

Moreover on the point of energy retention, the difference is again very small (at air rifle hunting ranges seldom will it equate to a difference of more than a single foot pound of energy.) Again this doesn’t really matter as even a .177 pellet, given a muzzle energy of ≈ 12 ft/lb, will retain enough energy to humanely fell a rabbit at 65 yards – a range I think most would agree is confined to only the most experienced of marksmen!

 

To achieve the same degree penetration the .22 will need more energy than the .177 as it will incur approximately 50% more resistance on impact. At ranges where the .177 pellet is at risk of passing straight through the hunter’s quarry, it is also true that the .22 will impart more energy. Although this fact should be of little significance if shot placement is correct. Furthermore over-penetration in the aforementioned hypothetical scenario with the .177 pellet could be avoided by adopting a pellet with a higher drag coefficient, such as the ‘Waddcutter’ or ‘Hollow-Point’ pattern, the latter being specifically designed for this purpose.

 

In conclusion I think that one can deliberate and debate over this topic ad infinitum, as it is essentially subjective. This is only my opinion, and frankly I think that it matters less than the amount of rabbits you’re putting on the table!

[ARRAN 22]

cheers for that everyone. i think im just going to go down to a shooting range and try out a .177 and .22 at long range see how i get on. im alot more clued up now after reading all that so thanks again

[hw97k 36]

Hi Mikey,

 

You throw a golf ball 50 metres in a cross wind at 60 mph and it will veer off due to the wind.

 

You now throw a ping pong ball the same distance and with 1 third to 1 times the power more and see what happens.

 

It's basic science and down to density, surface area and BC, i.e the small the BC the quicker the object slows down and the faster it will be effected by the wind, hence your speed theory also being correct mate. .

 

Do the same test with a 7.62 mm and a 5.56 mm ball round at 300 metres and also see what happens. The smaller, lighter and faster 5.56 mm gets affected a slight bit more.

 

I agree though i think that its down to time of flight and the effects of above so the closer the range the less the wind effects the projectile.

 

Si

[rossi_j 99]

Umm I was shooting a hft 2 weeks ago with about 6 other Lads off here all were using .177 calibre rifles. Some shots needed a mildot or more at 20 yards in the wind.

 

 

 

 

One or two definatly a little more than one.... gust dependant

 

:laugh:

 

Both calibers are the same if you know your milldots and ranges and if you adjust for wind (the tricky bit) the pellet will land where you put it

 

I mean same in terms of accuracy in my opinion

 

.atb. .ste.

Edited February 22, 2011 by rossi_j