hard terriers

[scent 509]

77

there is a few earths round my way that a hard dog is usually needed or a very good sounder that will mix it up if needed be.The game is so used to getting dug that it will just run around the earth all day long and try push past the terrier

just on this point, would ye think there was a difference years ago between terriers been reared to digging game thats been humanely dispatched after every dig & terriers that are dug to where the game is left go for another day & that they might come across again ?

couldn tell ye really pal as im only diggin a few year

[fat man 4,741]

Yes FTB i meant both but i think lads dont understand the question.Thank you for the reply.

[fat man 4,741]

Yes FTB i meant both but i think lads dont understand the question.Thank you for the reply.

DMICK not been funny,but i wud'nt think the terrier would know if the quarry was dug before to them its just another dig.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

You can not fully test a truely hard dog so why do so many value them as brood stock????

Why cant a truely hard dog not be tested ?

 

Because IMO to fully test a dog it needs to be used in many different earths and situations many times a season. Hard dogs can't be tested as they are sat in the kennel when they should be getting dug. Like i have already said i think many people are getting a hard dog and a rough dog mixed up they are not the same animal.

define hard and rough then

[Guest dee mac]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

[oohmydog 82]

Its not a problem if you can get sorted but making sure there out the way of pri-ing eyes, it can be very costly if there not,had a couple of hard dogs and you can always find them something to do when there fit atb

[mad terrier 9]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

 

not really that up on the terminology but from what you said there i think i have a reckless hard young dog and a mixing hard old bitch???

 

the young dog boxes his quarry, doesnt let up, has no reverse, is mute but still young so theres time for him to learn,has to be dug to everytime if his quarry is still live that is.

 

the bitch's style is a bit different, she boxes if she needs to but gives voice frequently, doesnt let her quarry past her and often dispatches her quarry no fuss, doesnt have to be dug to unless shes in bother as she can be called out

 

if this makes any sense at all?

[Guest dee mac]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

 

not really that up on the terminology but from what you said there i think i have a reckless hard young dog and a mixing hard old bitch???

 

the young dog boxes his quarry, doesnt let up, has no reverse, is mute but still young so theres time for him to learn,has to be dug to everytime if his quarry is still live that is.

 

the bitch's style is a bit different, she boxes if she needs to but gives voice frequently, doesnt let her quarry past her and often dispatches her quarry no fuss, doesnt have to be dug to unless shes in bother as she can be called out

 

if this makes any sense at all?

dont under stand about not having too dig too bitch unless she s in bother as she can be called out. when i enter a terrier i expect too dig too them anything less is a failure thats what terriers in the main are bred too do stay till dug .

[gonetoearth 5,144]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

 

not really that up on the terminology but from what you said there i think i have a reckless hard young dog and a mixing hard old bitch???

 

the young dog boxes his quarry, doesnt let up, has no reverse, is mute but still young so theres time for him to learn,has to be dug to everytime if his quarry is still live that is.

 

the bitch's style is a bit different, she boxes if she needs to but gives voice frequently, doesnt let her quarry past her and often dispatches her quarry no fuss, doesnt have to be dug to unless shes in bother as she can be called out

 

if this makes any sense at all?

dont under stand about not having too dig too bitch unless she s in bother as she can be called out. when i enter a terrier i expect too dig too them anything less is a failure thats what terriers in the main are bred too do stay till dug .

all i want and understand is , terrier, enters , dig to it fox either dead or alive, terrier may be marked sort it asap , terrier that is not marked will be used again asap keep me eye on the marked one , hard, rough, 100% , THEY EITHER WORK OR THE DONT , PUT THEM IN GET THEM OUT MEND THEM WHEN HURT , MINE ARE ALL SOFT AS THE LAW SAYS THE MUST BE SO THEY ARE

[Guest dee mac]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

 

not really that up on the terminology but from what you said there i think i have a reckless hard young dog and a mixing hard old bitch???

 

the young dog boxes his quarry, doesnt let up, has no reverse, is mute but still young so theres time for him to learn,has to be dug to everytime if his quarry is still live that is.

 

the bitch's style is a bit different, she boxes if she needs to but gives voice frequently, doesnt let her quarry past her and often dispatches her quarry no fuss, doesnt have to be dug to unless shes in bother as she can be called out

 

if this makes any sense at all?

dont under stand about not having too dig too bitch unless she s in bother as she can be called out. when i enter a terrier i expect too dig too them anything less is a failure thats what terriers in the main are bred too do stay till dug .

all i want and understand is , terrier, enters , dig to it fox either dead or alive, terrier may be marked sort it asap , terrier that is not marked will be used again asap keep me eye on the marked one , hard, rough, 100% , THEY EITHER WORK OR THE DONT , PUT THEM IN GET THEM OUT MEND THEM WHEN HURT , MINE ARE ALL SOFT AS THE LAW SAYS THE MUST BE SO THEY ARE

dont get me wrong there s days all our dogs need a few days even weeks off but there not reckless they just do what has too be done too get job done some days easier than others out and out yappers are of no use too me

[mad terrier 9]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

 

not really that up on the terminology but from what you said there i think i have a reckless hard young dog and a mixing hard old bitch???

 

the young dog boxes his quarry, doesnt let up, has no reverse, is mute but still young so theres time for him to learn,has to be dug to everytime if his quarry is still live that is.

 

the bitch's style is a bit different, she boxes if she needs to but gives voice frequently, doesnt let her quarry past her and often dispatches her quarry no fuss, doesnt have to be dug to unless shes in bother as she can be called out

 

if this makes any sense at all?

dont under stand about not having too dig too bitch unless she s in bother as she can be called out. when i enter a terrier i expect too dig too them anything less is a failure thats what terriers in the main are bred too do stay till dug .

without going more in_depth than i need to, lets just say its in the bitch's best interest if i call her out,id rather a live bitch that gives her all for me,

we work as a team.

 

back to the original question, what do you think?

[Guest dee mac]

a reckless hard dog is a dog that wants too fight its quarry a rough dog is a dog that works its quarry usually baying and mixing hard keeping it on its toes but not charging in all guns blazing imo

 

not really that up on the terminology but from what you said there i think i have a reckless hard young dog and a mixing hard old bitch???

 

the young dog boxes his quarry, doesnt let up, has no reverse, is mute but still young so theres time for him to learn,has to be dug to everytime if his quarry is still live that is.

 

the bitch's style is a bit different, she boxes if she needs to but gives voice frequently, doesnt let her quarry past her and often dispatches her quarry no fuss, doesnt have to be dug to unless shes in bother as she can be called out

 

if this makes any sense at all?

dont under stand about not having too dig too bitch unless she s in bother as she can be called out. when i enter a terrier i expect too dig too them anything less is a failure thats what terriers in the main are bred too do stay till dug .

without going more in_depth than i need to, lets just say its in the bitch's best interest if i call her out,id rather a live bitch that gives her all for me,

we work as a team.

 

back to the original question, what do you think?

instead of calling her out why not dig her unless that is you work rocks and if thats the case then i understand why its handy to be able too call her out .

[tearem 31]

Really interesting topic this, since you all have your own opinion and working style, according to the situation.

I know terriers which were hard BUT obedient and can be called out, they don't come out if not called, I' dlove one like that. When you had the terrierman working for the field, he too had to bolt quickly. Even if the fox driven in was not planning to bolt for the first 12 hours or so. Those were both hard and clever dogs knowing many tricks, and in their own way as admirable as the hard one dealing out and taking, because they were so intelligent, adaptable and learnt new things all the time. The clever dogs always seem to know what you want of them, and learn to know the game too, and find solutions for problems. So now, and in my situation, I like the smart dog most. I understand it has changed now in England and you only dig once (with a terrier that avoids contact somehow, so both terrier and quarry must have read some sort of script before? Otherwise, since they are all living beings, you cannot know what happens, and if you did, terrier sport would indeed be boring) Would there be any influence on the behaviour of the quarry since now they are not to be let free any more, I mean, the foxes in the old days learned from their encounters with hounds and terriers and some became quite cunning, while now every fox dug is supposed to be dispatched??? Would this forced way of hunting make a difference in selection in foxes?

I had a very hard little white fell terrier, think he only weighed 4 kilo, and I always had to dig to him or stay there overnight. In his later years, he also learnt the badger, when he was young he was way too hard for them. Then, when he was into practice for yeas I opened up on him one day to see how he bayed (he only bayed quite up close if he had no hold) and dodged his head from the foxes attacks.

You could put 7 dogs in a sett one after the other and no quarry pinned and then let in little Duvel and you could dig as he settled in say 10 minutes with a big one right before him in the corner. I loved that little thing for his gameness and he died dead game with his last fox when he was eleven. He could have left it on both sides, it was all open, but his ticker gave out and upon a hard dig we found him dead but still attached to his fox. The last years of his life I had learned to protect him against himself as we then often had rock and undiggable places, but before that he was entered in such places and he would only give up after many hours or a half day when he hardly had the strength to crawl out. Such a dog is a hard dog. He had not much physical strength and yet he killed his foxes, but his spirit was unbroken.

Still I would use a dog like Fluwijntje as a brood bitch (strong, good looker but too hard, 2 x badger, because of that nearly lost half her head, but very obedient to me by nature) but would mate her only to a very intelligent dog. I think line breeding (or outcrossing) hard with smart (clever) is best, for breeding bayer to bayer I also have the experience that some of the outcome of that lack courage and some other important factors.

There is so much more to attend to making a breeding, such as overall character, steadiness, structural soundness, coat and nose. But hardness/ gameness is easily lost in terriers.

You are all talking of hard in the way as making contact and taking from the game, but what about having to wrestle all the way up in 12 meters of sand to a small vixen, or working long time untill dug to, lack of oxygen, obstructions inside like stones and tree roots, steep tunnels, foxes on ledges which they can't reach, and foxes running ahead for miles, this also separates the wheat from the chaff, how much is a terrier prepared to take and go through to get to his quarry and then how long will he stay with it? A so called bayer having worked a quarry for 6 hours in a deep one is also tired, even if not wounded. I would be quite satisfied with the gameness of such a dog.

And yes, during their career they change style.

Semtex was rather hard in the beginning, exchanging more than words, untill, suddenly, at some encounter, she decided to try it the other way and get behind the quarry. That was succesfull in that she could kill him then, but since she drew instead of pushing, she locked herself up behind the dead fox a few times and she learned quickly to avoid that. Then, she learned to bolt them for the guns and eventually worked toward that, as she had first learned above ground, to bring the pigs to the guns so they were shot for her. She is clever and had she been a British terrier, having been dug to each time, she would have become a nailer. Sometimes now she still is, in one eye places, then I have to dig and mind you I like to dig, only the guns don't like it if we have to.

Have a terrier or more terriers to suit your situation and a hard/ game one at hand for when it is necessary, most agree I think. With game I mean: not giving up no matter what. Game dogs don't need to, but can be hard, and some hard dogs are not game, those are the ones which fight and shortly come out damaged, or never learn the principle of cornering them up and waiting to be helped from above, so they go all over the place fighting and can't be dug. (Or don't want to be dug? They want to posess the quarry for themselves...Nevertheless they are not clever as they make it more difficult than need be.)

[dmick 22]

Yes FTB i meant both but i think lads dont understand the question.Thank you for the reply.

DMICK not been funny,but i wud'nt think the terrier would know if the quarry was dug before to them its just another dig.

no bother just seen it a few times yrs ago that a terrier that wasnt considered hard where it was used on game that was dug only once then was passed on to an area where the game was used to being dug that it turned into a hard dog or else was pushed around.

[Guest busterdog]

FTB no one said anything about macho,i certainly did'nt.Iasked a simple question.Would you breed from a dog and bitch not capable of killing a fox

 

 

I have bitches and dogs that kill fox's yes, would i breed from anything that wouldn't "YES", everyone is going on about the Nick Stevens line of terriers as if it's the be all and end all, what you have to know about NS is he wouldn't use a dog that would damage a fox "full stop", i took a dog called Taffy down once and he was as mute as they come and twice as dull, we put him in a rangey but shallow spot (NS had never seen the dog work), as i said you never could tell what the dog was doing, we got a mark, heard a little bumping and thats when i broke the news to Stevens about the dog being mute, the look of panic lol, we dug the two foot mark to see the last glimer of life being mullered out of a vixen (to little to late) Taffy was banned from coming from that day on. Theres no need for a terrier to regularly kill fox's to prove it's worth breeding from and IMO it's got nothing to do with the quallity of the terrier in it's work to ground in IE time to ground or style of work. The classic example is the Taffy dog, he would close with his game grab a foot, leg or arse anything and would be quite happy even though he was being slowly mullered himself, I've had the misfurtune to have to take this dog to a vets when he'd been dug to at three foot on a very small vixen, he'd had his palate smashed out and the bulk of his teeth knocked out, he only ever saw around ten fox's before i had to pts, i had utter faith in this dogs working capabilities but his utter stupidities were his undoing.

 

For all the boys who've got the rock dog in there pedigrees taffy was rocks full litter brother.